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2020-11-10, 02:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender
The Mod Ogre: If I reply in black text, I'm just a poster; argue as you would with anyone else. When I reply under my Mod Name, or in red text (as I'm doing now), it is Mod Voice, and all that implies. I cannot recall ever doing Mod Name without red text, outside of a PM (and then it is usually "This is your first post, and you broke this local rule, so please pay attention and have fun); Black-text-with-mod-name is technically an option, but I don't do it.
If it's not red, it's no different than replying to anyone else on these forums (save Rich, obvs).Last edited by LibraryOgre; 2020-11-10 at 02:34 PM.
The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
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2020-11-10, 04:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender
(This, incidentally, took me forever to write, since I'm at work)
Ad res...
This can be a bit of a judgement call, but one of my criteria (most easily judged on strength) is does it comport with real-world records?
The 48kg lifter (so, 105 pounds) has a bench record of 90 kgs (198#), which is higher than an 18 strength should be able to lift in 1e (180#). 1e also assumes a "pick up and lift over the head", which is closer to a deadlift, where the record is 168kg, or 370#. And, you may look at your 2e PH and say "Well, the Max press for 18/00 is 480#, so some limit is reasonable"... but I'm just looking at the records for the ladies weighing 48kg. We go to the highest range... the 100kg/220#+ female lifters... the deadlift number becomes 251kg/553#, which is isn't quite a 19 strength (640#), but still a fair amount. Granted, the records may have been lower in the past, but a lifter in the 48kg range did a 165kg/363# deadlift in 1981, so they're weren't THAT much lower... and, again, we're talking a woman who weighs only about 100 pounds, not the bigger lifters (this is what I could easily find records for).
So, the weight limits on strength already show this to be a bad rule, just from a realism standpoint; but what about a gameplay standpoint? Is it FUN for female characters to have a lower maximum strength than male characters? I don't think it is, and the fact that it applies across races makes it a bit suspect. The androgynous elves have the same limitation? The uniformly masculine dwarves? So, I feel safe saying that's based in sexism.
As for fantasy racial modifiers, those get a little bit more of a question, because, as you point out, there's little reason a 7' tall minotaur and a 5' elf should have the same strength modifier. 3e addressed some of this... I think increasing weapon sizes and carrying weights based on size is a great idea, and Hackmaster gives bonus HP based on size, as well... but there's always the question of "Well, they're just that way. It's biology", which doesn't have much of a counter-argument with made-up species. And then it becomes a question of how the stereotypes of a given race line up with real-world stereotypes.
It's always a minefield, but that means it needs careful stepping, not charging through at maximum velocity.The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
*Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
*The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
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2020-11-10, 05:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender
Just to be clear, you are saying the overall lifting limits in AD&D fail the realism test because real world people have lifted more than the upper limits given, and some of them were also women, correct?
Because overall limits that are too low is a different issue than whether the strongest men can in fact lift more than the strongest women, which is what the upper limits on female strength were supposed to reflect.
Looking at the same source you use, it is obvious that the male records are higher than the female records, even when the weight classes are close or overlap. Example: men's 62kg record is 590kg, while the women's 64kg record is 460kg. Men's 69kg record is 651kg while women's 75kg is 500kg, etc. So having the very strongest males be stronger than the very strongest females seems to be realistic, at least for humans.
These people are really, really strong - the highest men's record is 1042kg, more than a ton! The women max out at 598kg. That's a pretty extreme difference between the very strongest men and the very strongest women, more than 400kg difference.
but what about a gameplay standpoint? Is it FUN for female characters to have a lower maximum strength than male characters?
Now, the fact that human male fighters have a higher strength limit than half-orcs, who have a +1 strength racial adjustment, would be a better case for designer bias. Obviously Gygax just wanted human fighters to be better than half-orcs, as there doesn't seem to be any other explanation for the limit. Half-orc fighters are limited to level 10 as well. That's higher than the other non-human fighters, but humans have unlimited advancement in all clases. Half-orcs only have unlimited advancement in the Assassin class.
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2020-11-10, 05:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-10, 06:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender
Wait, you mean they actually did something most of the players APPROVE of?
How...why....must....understand....Last edited by GrayDeath; 2020-11-10 at 06:10 PM.
A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”
01010100011011110010000001100010011001010010000001 10111101110010001000000110111001101111011101000010 00000111010001101111001000000110001001100101001011 100010111000101110
Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”
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2020-11-10, 06:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender
I wonder if lorewise it'll be retconned out entirely, torn down for to-be-revealed plot reasons, or just caught up to the wall of mirrors and now everyone's on the same page.
Still, can't say I'm unhappy when something that pointlessly upsets people gets changed.
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2020-11-10, 08:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender
My guess--retconned. To the best of my knowledge, it's never been used as a canon piece of any other published, 1st party work in 5e (although I can't speak to all the novels, which don't seem to be coming out anymore anyway). And SCAG was only sort of 1st-party--it was licensed out to Green Ronin in the first place. So my guess is that they're just going to disavow any knowledge of such things. Wall of the Faithless? What ever are you talking about? No such thing has ever existed. Right guys?
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2020-11-10, 08:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender
Earlier in the thread I said the reason the Wall got brought back was bad copypasta, and this change pretty much confirms that reasoning. Whoever wrote SCAG simply wasn't up on the - really rather obscure - fact that the Wall had been changed/eliminated two editions back and simply slotted in the earlier version from memory or an early source.
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2020-11-10, 09:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender
I basically agree. From what I hear (I don't own SCAG) there was quite a bit of "older-edition hangover" in that book. Things that were assumed to carry over but not stated as much. I'll note that there's nothing in the style guide for FR (freely available on DMs Guild) that says it exists, and it covers quite a bit about everyone being religious/active gods. And there are strong notes in the general style guide not to assume that anything from previous editions still holds unless it's said in a first-party publication.
Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
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2020-11-11, 11:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender
That leaves us with the previous sentences, in both senses of the word.
Originally Posted by SCAG p20, The Afterlife
- Lacking divine sponsorship still bars you from simply reaching the plane of your alignment. Could Kelemvor let you go if you work hard enough?
- The bit about larvae suggests that the Fugue Plane is still part of the Gray Waste of Hades, though it wouldn't be incompatible with the Shadowfell.
- Even souls who escape that transformation are left in a bleak environment, probably more undead than afterliving.
- Kelemvor effectively claims souls by default. And unlike Hel in OotS, he is not forbidden to have a living clergy. Not a bad portfolio, eh?
Well, I don't mind this. You can easily headcanon that it is the nature of the Fugue Plane to trap souls, which can then only be freed by divine intervention. Whereas the Wall was difficult to see as anything but a deliberate punishment for not worshipping the gods.
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2020-11-11, 12:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender
So, I'm not gonna miss the Wall, and in fact in my headcanon for my games I already ruled it kind of like this version of the Fugue Plane. And while I do think this puts the gods in-character in a better light, I wonder if on a meta level people wouldn't still feel like this sort of afterlife is a punishment for atheistic characters.
It's still pretty cruddy, after all, and leaves the characters at the mercy of a god anyways. At least it's more equal opportunity, with some seemingly positive outcomes.
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2020-11-11, 01:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender
I am saying that the artificial limit on women's strength fails, because there are women who can exceed it; one might argue that this would also mean that humans should be able to exceed that, but I have less of a problem with an artificial cap on all human ability that is lower than absolute human maximum... everyone is subject to the same cap, and any cap is going to be artificial.
Basically, the women's strength cap fails the realism test; an absolute limit on strength likewise does, but it has less impact on the fun of the game.The Cranky Gamer
*It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
*Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
*Mutant Dawn for Savage Worlds!
*The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
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2020-11-11, 01:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-11-11, 02:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender
Plus most adventurers are carrying that weight for long distances, not just picking it up and putting it down again, and they aren't at a controlled meet with perrrectly-balanced weights and time to carefully prepare before each lift, and chalk for the hands and lift belts for back support, and...
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2020-11-11, 03:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender
And are frequently carrying heavy weights...while also dashing on uncertain footing, dodging blows, climbing with one hand and attacking with another, etc.
For me, personally, I'd just ditch the obsession with realism overall. Judge things like weight limits by how they affect the aesthetic you want to produce and the types of gameplay it supports. For instance, a logistics-heavy survival game needs very different weight limits than a heroic action game. None of this is about realism (except in very wide bounds) but about consonance between setting and gameplay.
My favorite example is that an average strength (STR 10) D&D 5e level 20 fighter can (given a single feat), in the span of 6 seconds do all of:
* run 30 feet with as many turns, pirouettes, and dodges as he wants
* make up to 8 independent, aimed shots at up to 8 targets within 120 feet with no penalties with a heavy crossbow up to 6x/day
* make up to 4 independent, aimed shots with a heavy crossbow the remaining rounds of the day.
* while carrying up to 150 pounds of gear
And can do this day in and day out, surviving on combat rations and a regular amount of water.Last edited by PhoenixPhyre; 2020-11-11 at 03:02 PM.
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2020-11-11, 05:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-11, 06:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-11, 07:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender
I'm not sure what you mean here.
In 5e (in particular), you can build dexterity-based fighters as well as strength-based ones. And if you're a dex build, you don't need STR for anything really. So it's totally normal to have a 10-STR (or even 8-STR), 20-DEX (hitting the stat cap) high level fighter. And feats are a precious resource--the most you can end up with is 7, if you're a variant human and you give up every single chance to boost your ability scores. So many level 20 characters will have 1 or 0 feats.
But the point was that that's not all that optimized or special of a build. And it can do all sorts of things that, well, stretch credibility. Each one (except for the rate of fire) is not that unusual--there are lots of people who can carry 150 lbs of gear. Not average strength people, at least on earth, but it's not outside human capacity. Running 30' in 6 seconds isn't actually that fast. Doing it in armor, on uneven ground, while carrying 150 lbs of gear is more unusual, but still not superhuman. Doing it while also shooting a heavy crossbow at several multiples of the normal fire rate (which is measured in shots per minute for most cranked crossbows) pushes it well outside the norm. And being able to do it multiple times a day, day after day without ever getting exhausted is not normal either. Basically, the combination of capabilities is unrealistic, despite individual ones being possible (if not plausible).
In essence, D&D has already left realism far in the dust. So adding it back in for female vs male carrying capacity just doesn't give anything useful in my opinion. Or any of the other concessions to "realism" I hear. It doesn't fit the genre or aesthetic. And that's what's important.Last edited by PhoenixPhyre; 2020-11-11 at 07:59 PM.
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2020-11-11, 09:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender
D&D leaves realism in the dust at high levels, which is an important caveat. One of the key aspects of heroic fantasy in general and the whole zero-to-hero thing in particular is that most of the world is quite realistic most of the time, including heroes when they're starting out, with the major protagonists and antagonists, legendary monsters, etc. being increasingly unrealistic the further they fall from the baseline.
Where a more pure swords-and-sorcery game like Burning Wheel or Riddle of Steel expects characters to start as basically normal people and never really leave those bounds aside from perhaps a few concessions to cinematic tropes, and a more pure high-fantasy game like Ars Magic or Exalted lets characters tell the laws of physics to sit down and shut up right out of the gate, D&D lies in a middle ground where keeping things verisimilar at 1st level where one might struggle in a fight against a band of goblins is important but limiting things based on verisimilitude at 20th level where one might have already killed a demon prince or two (or even at 10th level where one has likely already taken on physically-impossible monsters and survived) is actively undesirable.
So while the specific case of gendered carrying capacity isn't a good thing (for reasons statistical to practical to narrative), the general drive for verisimilitude in the appropriate level range most certainly is.
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2020-11-11, 10:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender
Even from first level in D&D, at least in 5e. Sure, you're only shooting one heavy crossbow bolt every 6 seconds (2 about 3x/day), but you're still doing everything else exactly the same.
Because really, D&D isn't based on reality. It's based on epic fantasy, which shares much more root and aesthetic with action hero and superhero shows/movies. Even at 1st level you're pushing the bounds of plausibility (not in individual capabilities but in the collective set). By 5th level you're standing toe to toe with monsters that should obliterate you. And recovering from near-death completely by the next day.
Realism isn't in the picture. Instead, D&D obeys to its own particular logic, subservient to the needs of the genre and to the aesthetics being developedDawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
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2020-11-12, 12:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender
Last edited by Bohandas; 2020-11-12 at 12:34 AM.
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2020-11-12, 12:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender
That particular case is specific to 5e (as so many low-level realism issues are); in 3e reloading a heavy crossbow is a full-round action so you're getting one bolt off every 12 seconds, accurate to the historical rate of fire of 4 to 5 bolts per minute for heavy crossbows that didn't require a windlass, and in AD&D rounds were 1 minute long so one shot per round was on the slow side but still accurate.
As to the "still doing everything else the same" part, 30 feet per round is a speed of 3.4 miles per hour (a standard walking pace) while the encumbrance limit at Str 10 before your speed is reduced is 33# in 3e (just about the average weight of a hiking backpack for an adult male hiker) or 50# in 5e (numbers are off there, but that's nothing new), so really, "amble 30 feet and fire a crossbow while carrying a normal backpack" is nothing extraordinary.
Even at 1st level you're pushing the bounds of plausibility (not in individual capabilities but in the collective set). By 5th level you're standing toe to toe with monsters that should obliterate you. And recovering from near-death completely by the next day.
Because really, D&D isn't based on reality. It's based on epic fantasy, which shares much more root and aesthetic with action hero and superhero shows/movies.
Throwing away the vast majority of the game's influences and then trying to pigeonhole it into one genre that it was "really based on" is historically inaccurate and completely missing the point.
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2020-11-12, 01:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender
"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
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2020-11-12, 02:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender
Three Hearts and Three Lions is not historical fiction. It's high fantasy all the way, with Chaos vs. Law, enchantresses, water nymphs, dwarves and elves, and ogres. It's hero is the most likely inspiration for paladins in AD&D. It is definitely where the idea for regenerating trolls came from, and it also has a swanmay (MMII) as the love interest.
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2020-11-12, 02:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender
Technically Dice said "historical fantasy"
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2020-11-12, 03:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender
I can't believe it. They actually did it! The impossible!
They removed outdated and problematic kludge from Forgotten Realms!
/hyperbole aside, I'm glad the Wall is gone.
------------------------------------------------
Talk about how D&D was "realistic" at low levels in other editions.
... after summoning fey (any below a given HD from any published source, ever) for minutes at a time to do his bidding in various magical ways (hacking my way into spells way above my level in the process)...
... and then added his own ability to change the landscape to his whims X times/day...
... all while having a magical dirt man who somehow moved through rock like there was nothing there and functioned like a living sonar.
That was all at 3rd level. At 5th he could turn into a dinosaur. Oh, and from 1st he turned raisins into the world's greatest superfood.
1e and AD&D had ridiculous kitchen sink dungeons whose purpose and function fell apart the moment one applied critical thinking to them.
5e can be markedly less gritty at lower level than earlier editions, but that has little to do with how "realistic" D&D actually is.Last edited by RifleAvenger; 2020-11-12 at 03:54 AM.
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2020-11-12, 08:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender
Or, you know, they knew exactly what they were doing and simply didn't have the same priorities as the 'but realism...' crowd. I've never understood this notion that the devs don't know something (especially something as obvious as '5e healing rates are unrealistic') rather than the more realistic (hah!) idea that they know and simply don't care.
I don't think a lot of us who started within that early time period ever bought the realism idea anyways. Women characters (as a mechanically different thing at least) were introduced to the game with alternate rules, alternate level titles, and special abilities like "Charm men, Seduction and Charm Humanoid Monster." This speaks to genre-emulation more than anything else, not realism. D&D has always tried to have it both ways (with varying emphasis on each side) as to whether it was trying to be realistic or genre-emulative. Which is fine. However, from the jump the differing rules based on gender appeared to more say, 'female characters are supposed to represent Conan's plucky female sidekick of the given short story or the femme fatale,' not 'it's only realistic that the female character wouldn't be as strong.' That smells wholly of a retro-justification.
They are occasionally capable of listening. I can't decide if this surprises me or not. Mind you, I suspect forums like this aren't exactly representative, and most gamers just plain didn't care one way or the other. So it is somewhat surprising to me that they finally decided that this was important. However, I also guess this wasn't a huge hurdle anyways (and they were updating SCAG for the Tasha's release anyways). I guess mildly surprised is where I land.
1e and AD&D had ridiculous kitchen sink dungeons whose purpose and function fell apart the moment one applied critical thinking to them.Last edited by Willie the Duck; 2020-11-12 at 08:50 AM.
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2020-11-12, 08:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender
Which would be what, fantasy set in a real life historical period? That's not what Three Hearts and Three Lions is, except maybe the prologue, where the protagonist is fighting a battle in World War II before he is swept off to the fantasy world. By that criteria The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe would be historical fantasy.
I'm not sure I would call The Dying Earth stories "science fanrasy" either. They're pretty much just low fantasy that happens to be set in a far-future earth, with very few science fiction tropes.Last edited by Jason; 2020-11-12 at 09:21 AM.
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2020-11-12, 10:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender
Originally Posted by Willie the Duck
Mind you, I suspect forums like this aren't exactly representative, and most gamers just plain didn't care one way or the other.
I personally don’t see why anyone is elated that two lines of text are errata’d away, when those two lines can be and usually are ignored by those who don’t like them.
But then, I’ve never made it more than two pages through an FR novel, and I certainly don’t follow the nuances of which Realms deity said what on Tuesday morning in DR 1283 or whatever. I’ve done most of my 3.X gaming in the Realms, but I can’t recall any other player even mentioning one of the novels. I have a feeling that’s more typical than otherwise.
Originally Posted by Willie the Duck
Personally I don't overthink the D&D canon.
Originally Posted by Jason
I'm not sure I would call The Dying Earth stories "science fanrasy" either. They're pretty much just low fantasy that happens to be set in a far-future earth, with very few science fiction tropes.
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2020-11-12, 11:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Somewhere in Utah...
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Re: [Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defender
Yep. It was a throw-away reference to past novel continuity, not a fundamental part of the Forgotten Realms setting.
In any case, the two lines are still in the book on my shelf unless I decide I should scratch them out rather than just continue to ignore them.
But then, I’ve never made it more than two pages through an FR novel, and I certainly don’t follow the nuances of which Realms deity said what on Tuesday morning in DR 1283 or whatever. I’ve done most of my 3.X gaming in the Realms, but I can’t recall any other player even mentioning one of the novels. I have a feeling that’s more typical than otherwise.
You could just as easily call it science fiction with a few fantasy tropes. “Science fantasy” is as good a term as any.
I recently read the Retief stories and am making my way through the Dumarest books and having the same experience with Traveller. "Oh, so that's where the name of the game came from, and why it's spelled in the British fashion."Last edited by Jason; 2020-11-12 at 11:47 AM.