Eidetic Spellcaster is a horrid ACF...

[St Fan]

I’ve seen Eidetic Spellcaster often touted as great for freeing a wizard from those bothersome spellbooks... and I’m frankly puzzled about why.

Unless you’re planning to play a wizard with a Vow of Poverty, it is frankly an absolutely terrible alternative class feature.

First of all, it is exchanged not for two, but THREE other class features. (Yes, three: Summon Familiar, Scribe Scroll AND spellbook, which it replaces.) Scribe Scroll I could get, this spellcaster is less oriented toward scribbing magic... but why take away the familiar for an otherwise subpar ability?

Sure, you don’t have to bother with spellbooks anymore... which most wizards do a perfectly good job protecting anyway. (If you really fear thieving, you can always have some spells tattooed on your body). But you are also giving up many of the advantage of having a spellbook.

First of all, how do you think wizards quickly exchange new spells between themselves? Yes, by letting another consult their respective spellbooks, in a good faith exchange. An Eidetic Spellcaster can learn new spells from a spellbook, but can’t offer his own in exchange, seriously limiting any spell bartering. You’d have to write a scroll first... which you don’t have the bonus feat for, and is costly.

Furthermore, giving up a spellbook also means giving up ALL the various ways to reduce cost of inscribing spells in them. Arcane Shorthand, Book of Geometry, Blessed Book, Quill of Rapid Scrivening, etc. Also lost is the opportunity to sell old spellbooks once you’ve started to copy the spells for cheap in a new one using those methods. The Eidetic Spellcaster is stuck with paying 100 gp/level for all spells learned beyond those gained at a new level, which in the long run probably means less spells.

And yes, that’s a lot of money paying for the needed “incense”, don’t you think? Not that I have the slightest trouble with calling it “incense”, mind you. Even the shady guy selling you those psychotropic substances increasing memory and arcane retention is certainly calling them “incense” too. Though one can wonder how good for your lungs is breathing all this “incense” in the long term.

And cherry on top, an Eidetic Spellcaster is barred from taking Ultimate Magus as a prestige class.

(It’s also extremely unclear how Eidetic Spellcaster interacts with Spell Mastery and other feats depending of it.)

Personnaly, as a GM I only see using this ACF by giving it for free to any wizard from a tribal/illiterate background such as Anagakok or Filidh, thus replacing the spellbook that doesn’t fit with their thematics.

[Ramza00]

DMs should just allowed the Athas version of the Blessed Book called Mnemonic Crystal

https://athas.miraheze.org/wiki/Univ...emonic_Crystal

For 50 pages it costs 625 gp and each additional 8 pages is 10 gp (aka 12.5 gp cost, so an 80 page mnemonic crystal is 1000 gp, a 120 page one is 1500 gp, a 160 page one is 2000 gp, and a 200 page one is 2500 gp.)

Since the weight is only 1 lb it works great with a glove of storing, handy haversack, Najjar's Cloak of Weaponry, possum pouch, etc, etc.

There are frustrating forms of book keep the dm should keep if everyone is “having fun”, but class design should not punish classes with annoyances to encourage or discourage play.

[SirNibbles]

DMs should just allowed the Athas version of the Blessed Book called Mnemonic Crystal

https://athas.miraheze.org/wiki/Univ...emonic_Crystal

For 50 pages it costs 625 gp and each additional 8 pages is 10 gp (aka 12.5 gp cost, so an 80 page mnemonic crystal is 1000 gp, a 120 page one is 1500 gp, a 160 page one is 2000 gp, and a 200 page one is 2500 gp.)

Since the weight is only 1 lb it works great with a glove of storing, handy haversack, Najjar's Cloak of Weaponry, possum pouch, etc, etc.

There are frustrating forms of book keep the dm should keep if everyone is “having fun”, but class design should not punish classes with annoyances to encourage or discourage play.

Honestly it seems like spellbooks (for the most part) are just another Grod's Law attempt to make spells/spellcasters not overpowered. Nobody in the entire party is having more fun because a character has to read a book for an hour in order to use overpowered abilities.

___

Also fully agree with OP on pretty much all points. The only real value of a spellbook should be to exchange spells with others. I can't think of a fantasy environment outside of D&D where that wasn't the case.

[Ramza00]

Honestly it seems like spellbooks (for the most part) are just another Grod's Law attempt to make spells/spellcasters not overpowered. Nobody in the entire party is having more fun because a character has to read a book for an hour in order to use overpowered abilities.

Agreed.

But also I would deconstruct that further. DnD is a game system with 50+ years of tradition, and that tradition happened in many places and with many authors so it has an origin and does not have a “singular origin” at the same time. It is 1967 and 1974 but also stuff prior to 1967 with works of fiction and stories that inspire the original creators, and these creators changed their minds with new feedback, new desires, and new excessive joys.

And one can agree with those excessive joys such as you want a book nerd to study a book every 24 hours, or you can transgress the past and say your wizard talks to a magic sword instead, or he talks to eldritch patrons via a magical mirror. The lines between classes are artificial distinctions much like the Zhuangzai story of the butterfly dream where he dreams he is a butterfly, or perhaps the butterfly dreams they are a man, and the necessary distinction between these is an instance of transformation plus language.

————

So yeah I would go the spheres of power route with casting traditions where the rules of your magic allows the DM to allow storytelling opportunities, likewise we hope the DM is a fun character and not a (censored) person out to get the players in a way that is not fun and poisons the joy of the table. If the player can lose their spell book, then a cleric should have nights their gods do not answer their prayers and so on.

[Zanos]

Whether or not Eidetic is good depends greatly on your DM and your campaign; it's a very nice feature to have in campaign settings where magic is illegal or attracts unwanted attention, for example, or if your DM just frequently goes after a wizards spellbook or separates you from your gear. In my experience wizards will often be asked to hand over their spellbooks when the party is asked to disarm to speak with important people, and it's not like Bluff is a wizard class skill. Also keep in mind that Eidetic doesn't actually remove your spellbook feature, so you can still use them if you like, whether to take advantage of magic items that depend on them if your DM won't allow a compatible alternative, to copy spells for others, or to have a decoy spellbook. Also you get to laugh at "lesser" wizards who have birds that **** on everything instead of a steel trap mind that just memorizes everything. Combine with autohypnosis to never have to take notes again.

In games where that stuff isn't a concern though, yes, the feature is underwhelming. It removes two features which either give or can be converted into combat advantages, and it's benefits are often not applicable.

[Maat Mons]

Some people just don’t like spellbooks… or familiars. And remember, a slightly suboptimal Wizard is still better than most other things.

[RandomPeasant]

Eidetic Spellcaster primarily exists to make Wizards simpler to play by removing elements that add complexity (handling a familiar, tracking a spellbook, being encouraged to scribe and accumulate limited-use scrolls). It is certainly less powerful than playing a full-complexity Wizard, and arguably unnecessarily so, but that kind of option is always going to be less powerful by nature of what it is trying to achieve, and in the overwhelming majority of campaigns you will be able to play a Wizard to whatever power level is necessary even if you lose some of your theoretical power ceiling.

Honestly it seems like spellbooks (for the most part) are just another Grod's Law attempt to make spells/spellcasters not overpowered. Nobody in the entire party is having more fun because a character has to read a book for an hour in order to use overpowered abilities.

Spellbooks are very flavorful, and while "ha ha I stole ur book" is basically never fun, the fact that the Wizard does not simply know every Wizard spell automatically is a meaningful power constraint in a lot of games. If your DM is not forcing you to spend a bunch of table time detailing your spellbook defenses, it's really just a flavor thing, and looked at that way it's fine.

[St Fan]

You have a very good point in saying that the value of such an ACF can be very dependent of the campaign. If having a spellbook is more disadvantageous than average because of a ban on wizards (or paper, whatever...), then Eidetic spellcaster is more of interest.

There are other options, however, like the Spell Mastery feat (and note that a 2nd-level+ Chameleon can select Spell Mastery every day with the bonus feat, up to the full spell selection) or tattooing spells.

And if the aim is to have a character with less complexity than a standard wizard, you can always plays a sorcerer or beguiler or other spontaneous casters.

I wouldn't ban it outright, but as a GM I'd certainly homebrew that you can still summon a familiar (but also that you cannot still scribe on a spellbook, you pick a side).

Besides, although that's probably just me, half the fun of a spellbook is to design all kind of magical traps around it to give a nasty surprise to anybody trying to swoop it. Spells such as sepia's snake sigil or secret page exist for a reason.

[redking]

Depending on the campaign, it's worth it or not. I'd expect a lot of eidetic wizards in the Dark Sun setting, and it's probably worth it. Having to trade using scrolls isn't that terrible of an imposition. It could even be safer than giving someone access to your entire spellbook.

[icefractal]

For the "average" campaign - not worth it unless you didn't want a familiar anyway, yeah, as spellbook hate is uncommon. However, spell-trading is also uncommon. I've yet to be in a game where the GM:
1) Had friendly/neutral Wizard NPCs show up with any frequency. And ...
2) Did fair trading of spells, rather than "NPCs demand a bunch of gold, don't care what spells you have to show them" or "NPCs demand knowledge of like five spells for every one they give you".

So while the trading-lack is theoretically a big loss, it's a loss that won't matter for most PCs.

And for the games where it is good, it's very good - although as Dragon material it's less likely to be auto-allowed, and the GMs who give Wizard PCs a hard time are often the ones least likely to allow it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

At the very least, the Obtain Familiar feat is superior to a regular familiar, if only because PrCs are a thing, and most of them don't advance your familiar at all. Around these boards it's common to trade the familiar for an ACF and take Obtain Familiar anyway, so if you plan on doing something like that and Eidetic Spellcaster is the one you want, go for it.

Also, it's pretty easy to get bonus feats that you can swap out via the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle, so replacing both familiar and Scribe Scroll in exchange for money isn't too difficult.

[Chronos]

At the very least, the Obtain Familiar feat is superior to a regular familiar, if only because PrCs are a thing, and most of them don't advance your familiar at all.

To the contrary, most prestige classes advance your familiar more than wizard does. You won't get the higher-level familiar abilities, but those are only a small part of a familiar's advancement. More important is that the familiar has hit points, (effective) hit dice, and skills that scale with yours, and wizards have the worst skills and HP of any class.

That said, with the Obtain Familiar feat, your familiar gets those things and the higher-level familiar abilities, so it is still better, just not by as much as you said.

[Zanos]

For the "average" campaign - not worth it unless you didn't want a familiar anyway, yeah, as spellbook hate is uncommon. However, spell-trading is also uncommon. I've yet to be in a game where the GM:
1) Had friendly/neutral Wizard NPCs show up with any frequency. And ...
2) Did fair trading of spells, rather than "NPCs demand a bunch of gold, don't care what spells you have to show them" or "NPCs demand knowledge of like five spells for every one they give you".

So while the trading-lack is theoretically a big loss, it's a loss that won't matter for most PCs.

And for the games where it is good, it's very good - although as Dragon material it's less likely to be auto-allowed, and the GMs who give Wizard PCs a hard time are often the ones least likely to allow it.

I think this is just difference in experience then, as I've fairly rarely had problems with liberal spell access; most printed settings have official organizations of Wizards who canonically trade spells, and as one gets to higher levels it's possible to bootstrap access to spells with the free spells you get as you level. You can always buy scrolls also, which are actually cheaper for first level spells than the cost of paying a wizard to scribe from his book.

At the very least, the Obtain Familiar feat is superior to a regular familiar, if only because PrCs are a thing, and most of them don't advance your familiar at all. Around these boards it's common to trade the familiar for an ACF and take Obtain Familiar anyway, so if you plan on doing something like that and Eidetic Spellcaster is the one you want, go for it.

Also, it's pretty easy to get bonus feats that you can swap out via the Dark Chaos Feat Shuffle, so replacing both familiar and Scribe Scroll in exchange for money isn't too difficult.

The actual loss here is the opportunity cost of not getting a different feat with your flaw, since you can only take two flaws. Advancing your familiar is mediocre, as the only noteworthy features are replicated by cheap magic items(speak with master), or aren't of use to the vast majority of wizards(deliver touch spell).

If you're using the infinite feat shuffle then I think most build advice is off the table because you can just do whatever you want.

[St Fan]

Again, plenty very good points. You can always make a build work if you really want to, you just have to invest in the right feats and skills to compensate any shortcomings.

And spell-trading is indeed not always the most efficient way of gaining new spells, precisely because Wizards tend to be overprotective of their spellbooks. I have a character build that is pretty much specialized in gaining new spells, and I envision her not much paying NPCs for consulting their spellbooks; if they're not interested in trading, she'll probably politely accept their choice... before bonking them over the head repeatedly and then "borrowing" the spellbook to learn the spells in it. And targeting mostly outlaw/renegade wizards, maybe as some kind of community service for serial spellbook-st... borrowing.

Although besides other wizards, I don't see many unsavory type being interested in stolen spellbooks. I mean, even if you're in the business of fencing stolen goods, would you dare trying to sell something that is likely to have a powerful spellcaster after it? Wizards have ways to track their spellbooks, you know, like locate object or dragoneye rune. Even a powerful thieves guild is likely to treat spellbooks fencing like poison.

Unless the wizard the spellbook belonged to is dead, of course... wait, no, that's not a good idea either.

I would just like to point out that my ghost shall be both angry and vengeful, and will retain all my spellcasting powers.

[Malphegor]

tbh instead of that I braid meaningful knots in my characters beards to signify spells. There’s precedent in the form of an alternate scroll made out of rope knots, and as long as it takes the same amount of data and is costed the same and takes the same effort to ‘scribe’, then having a beautiful beard full of tangles that represent arcane glyphs and odd arrangements of beards is as good as pages and just as flammable with the amount of beard oil in there.

Plus you prepare your spells for the day by stroking it pensively

[Crake]

Eidetic spellbook is bis for chameleons, who can reroll their floating bonus feat every morning to add a new spell into their mind every day, until eventually they know literally every single spell.

Who needs to share spells then?

[Ramza00]

Again, plenty very good points. You can always make a build work if you really want to, you just have to invest in the right feats and skills to compensate any shortcomings.

And spell-trading is indeed not always the most efficient way of gaining new spells, precisely because Wizards tend to be overprotective of their spellbooks. I have a character build that is pretty much specialized in gaining new spells, and I envision her not much paying NPCs for consulting their spellbooks; if they're not interested in trading, she'll probably politely accept their choice... before bonking them over the head repeatedly and then "borrowing" the spellbook to learn the spells in it. And targeting mostly outlaw/renegade wizards, maybe as some kind of community service for serial spellbook-st... borrowing.

Although besides other wizards, I don't see many unsavory type being interested in stolen spellbooks. I mean, even if you're in the business of fencing stolen goods, would you dare trying to sell something that is likely to have a powerful spellcaster after it? Wizards have ways to track their spellbooks, you know, like locate object or dragoneye rune. Even a powerful thieves guild is likely to treat spellbooks fencing like poison.

Unless the wizard the spellbook belonged to is dead, of course... wait, no, that's not a good idea either.

Spellbooks are a commodity that is such generative in what it allows that societies would form of wizard guilds where they co-opt among each other instead of being insular. Remember "power" is held by the group and the community but "action and agency" is held by individuals. Economies are a natural developing thing for we are more powerful together and weaker when people think zero-sum. We gladly find ways to form agency in a cooperative fashion, surrendering a little bit of freedom in order to tap into something larger something more powerful via sharing and mutual trade.

Thus individuals will have multiple spell books, spell books they keep secret and secure plus public spell books which they share. Yes this is overlapping / wasteful cost but the bounty of sharing would easily pay for it and allow greater spell access.

Think of it like as networking and how there are multiple "backup" nodes in a large network such as the internet, or a library in general. And the library will not be located in a single building location even if its located in a single city. People store their books in multiple buildings which are not all the same location. This was the case of library cities like Alexandria but also all throughout the 1500s to today.

[redking]

Eidetic spellbook is bis for chameleons, who can reroll their floating bonus feat every morning to add a new spell into their mind every day, until eventually they know literally every single spell.

Who needs to share spells then?

An eidetic wizard with levels in chameleon probably cannot use it's eidetic abilities for the chameleon spellbook. Ask your DM territory, for sure. There are two objections -

1. Eidetic spellcaster applies to the wizard class. It is silent on whether it can apply to other classes. The chameleon can use arcane spells off other arcane spell lists other than wizard also. Even if it was accepted that eidetic spellcaster works for the wizard spells, it's possible that it may not work for spells from other lists, such as bard. It's an open question.

2. The chameleon spellbooks are used in the same way as a wizard, but fluffed differently.

That said, I'd probably allow it. But a hardass DM might say no, especially if this combo was sprung on him with no notice.

Anyway, eidetic spellcaster can be situationally good. As another person pointed out, quite often PCs are not given the opportunity to share spellbooks, even when it is canonical in the setting. Losing scribe scroll is painful, but there are probably other ways to pick that up. Obtain familiar is objectively better than the class feature (and what the class feature should have been in the first place).

EDIT: As a DM I'd allow the chameleon to use eidetic spellcaster for memorising spell, but I'd take a dim view of floating feat being used for extra spell. I'd allow the floating feat to be used for extra spell, but the spell would disappear from memory after the floating feat is used for something else. Any player attempting it risks a dodge check from a ranged attack from a thrown DMG.

[ciopo]

An eidetic wizard with levels in chameleon probably cannot use it's eidetic abilities for the chameleon spellbook. Ask your DM territory, for sure. There are two objections -

1. Eidetic spellcaster applies to the wizard class. It is silent on whether it can apply to other classes. The chameleon can use arcane spells off other arcane spell lists other than wizard also. Even if it was accepted that eidetic spellcaster works for the wizard spells, it's possible that it may not work for spells from other lists, such as bard. It's an open question.

2. The chameleon spellbooks are used in the same way as a wizard, but fluffed differently.

That said, I'd probably allow it. But a hardass DM might say no, especially if this combo was sprung on him with no notice.

Anyway, eidetic spellcaster can be situationally good. As another person pointed out, quite often PCs are not given the opportunity to share spellbooks, even when it is canonical in the setting. Losing scribe scroll is painful, but there are probably other ways to pick that up. Obtain familiar is objectively better than the class feature (and what the class feature should have been in the first place).

the trick is wizard 18/chamaleon 2, use the floating feat for "extra spell". that extra spell is now a known spell for your character, i.e. it's added to all your classes spell list ( proof: a wizard8/noncaster 12 can take extra spell during any of the noncaster levels). eidetic wizard "scribe" that spell in his memory by whatever means necessary, the dya after change extra spell for a different extra spell, etcetera

[redking]

the trick is wizard 18/chamaleon 2, use the floating feat for "extra spell". that extra spell is now a known spell for your character, i.e. it's added to all your classes spell list ( proof: a wizard8/noncaster 12 can take extra spell during any of the noncaster levels). eidetic wizard "scribe" that spell in his memory by whatever means necessary, the dya after change extra spell for a different extra spell, etcetera

It looks like I edited my post the same time that you wrote your post. Yeah. Extra spell via floating feat would definitely not fly if I was DM.

[Chronos]

One thing with sharing spells with a large organization, they're not going to be interested in you trading them a spell they already have, and a large organization probably already has most of the spells. Of course, that does mean that they're likely to be all the more interested in any they don't already have, so they might trade on considerably better terms than 1:1 for them, but it still depends on you first getting a spell that they don't already have (possibly by researching some custom spells of your own). They're also more likely to have a straight-up price list where you can pay a set amount of gold for spell access, at least for the more common spells, or ones they don't consider particularly dangerous.

[bekeleven]

Eidetic Spellcaster is not an ACF I'd take in an "all tier 1s, fighting tier 1s" type of game.

However, I would take it in an "you IRL are a wizard" game. Because I wouldn't want my powers to be tied to a possession. Spellbooks are so damn inconvenient. I've lost to many possessions in my life to want that kind of stress and hassle.

So basically, while spellbooks are flavorful and eidetic spellcaster has some mechanical strength, the ACF overall trades mechanical power for flavor. I've made that trade before and I'll make it again. Easy-bake wizards are some of my favorites.

[Maat Mons]

Funny thing is, anyone leveling up is naturally going to take their free spells known from among the best options. So if you want one of those, you could get it from basically any Wizard. On the other hand, if you want a terrible spell, you’ll be hard-pressed to find anyone who has it in their spellbook. The law of supply and demand says the abundance of Wizards with good spells to trade decreases the value of those spells, and the dearth of Wizards with bad spells to trade increases the value of those spells. So as long as plenty of Wizards feel they “gotta catch em all,” picking bad spells known gives you more bargaining power in spell swaps.

Personally, I’d bargain with my future spells known. Let spellbook completionists know that you’re willing to take requests for which spells you learn on your next level-up. If there’s a spell they just haven’t been able to find, you’ll learn it, and share it with them. They just have to share some agreed-upon spells with you in exchange. If some powerful Wizard is desperate for that one last super-obscure spell that will complete their library, you can probably get a really good deal.

[St Fan]

the trick is wizard 18/chamaleon 2, use the floating feat for "extra spell". that extra spell is now a known spell for your character, i.e. it's added to all your classes spell list ( proof: a wizard8/noncaster 12 can take extra spell during any of the noncaster levels). eidetic wizard "scribe" that spell in his memory by whatever means necessary, the dya after change extra spell for a different extra spell, etcetera

Okay, a few very important points:

Extra Spell cannot be used to add a new spell that's not already in your spell list. There is a very clear Sage Advice about this already.

Even if it could, then it would only be part of your class list last as long as the floating feat is set on this specific spell. Having a spell not on your spell list written in your spell book is perfectly possible, but that doesn't make it part of your spell list. If you want to prepare said spell, you'd need to do so as a Chameleon spell, takes again Extra Spell as the floating feat for this very spell this day, or whatever other trick (like preparing the spell with anyspell or lesser anyspell obtained through Arcane Disciple).

Personally, I only allow Extra Spell as the floating feat to add a spell for free if picked at the time the character is gaining a level in the spellcasting class, alongside the two new spells by level for Wizard (up to five with Collegiate Wizard and Elven Generalist).

In all other circumstances, Extra Spell as the floating feat only allows to add a new spell if you're in a well-furnished library where you can do the appropriate arcane researches, which will take you the whole day, AND it costs exactly as much as scribbing any new spell in your spellbook.

You can never use Extra Spell this way while adventuring away from civilization or busy doing something else. The floating feat cannot makes new information just pop up in your mind, that's not how it work.

[ciopo]

Okay, a few very important points:

Extra Spell cannot be used to add a new spell that's not already in your spell list. There is a very clear Sage Advice about this already.

Even if it could, then it would only be part of your class list last as long as the floating feat is set on this specific spell. Having a spell not on your spell list written in your spell book is perfectly possible, but that doesn't make it part of your spell list. If you want to prepare said spell, you'd need to do so as a Chameleon spell, takes again Extra Spell as the floating feat for this very spell this day, or whatever other trick (like preparing the spell with anyspell or lesser anyspell obtained through Arcane Disciple).

Personally, I only allow Extra Spell as the floating feat to add a spell for free if picked at the time the character is gaining a level in the spellcasting class, alongside the two new spells by level for Wizard (up to five with Collegiate Wizard and Elven Generalist).

In all other circumstances, Extra Spell as the floating feat only allows to add a new spell if you're in a well-furnished library where you can do the appropriate arcane researches, which will take you the whole day, AND it costs exactly as much as scribbing any new spell in your spellbook.

You can never use Extra Spell this way while adventuring away from civilization or busy doing something else. The floating feat cannot makes new information just pop up in your mind, that's not how it work.

I'm well aware of the sage advice that specifically disregarded the description of the feat itself, which just so happen to say, quite literally "For classes such as wizard that have more options for learning spells, Extra Spell is generally used to learn a specific spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research.", I'm going to meme it as council business and move on as that's not the crux here.

The floating feat is pulling information out of nowhere, what else could it be? how is picking up/dropping a feat on a daily basis anything else but forgetting or remembering some whatever tidbits? it's a mechanical choice that's disconnected from in character justification, or if the justification matter just about any rationalization about "how it works" if it works for any feat it works for any other feat. I mean I don't see any justification for allowing it to pick, say, power attack, or a skill focus, or whatever, not also working for extra spell?

That extra spell is, specifically, somewhat disfunctional with spellbook caster is a different beast, but the rationalization therein. Like, "my character is forgetful and all those extra spells have always have been in his spellbook, he just forgot that he secret-paged them and only recently remembered that that blank page between page 20# and 23# actually contains fireball"

A chamaleon (that in itself doesn't actually qualify for the extra spell feat, anyway) would need to scribe the "extra spell" from a spellbook to another spellbook to retain that spell from a day to another day, unless you go to "absurd" whereas feat that give something that can exist as a separate entity from the feat persist after the removal of the feat.

By which I mean, a fighter 5/chamaleon 10 does not qualify for extra spell. a wizard 5/chamaleon 10 qualify for extra spell, but can only pick spells of up to 2nd level of wizard. floating feat extra spell would add one (wizard, under the limitation of "only in class spell can be picked" you want to operate under) spell to that spellbook.. and that spell would disappear from that spellbook when the feat is lost, as normal for anything else that's transient, so that wizard/chamaleon with eidetic needs to write down (and therefore spend gold) that extra spell it randomly popped up on his mind if he wants to retain it when he changes out the feat.

I'm not claiming that the floating feat used on extra spell makes those extra spell permanent addition at not cost, I'm sorry if I wasn't clear on that. I meant that extra spell can be used to access a spell so you can scribe it down (at a cost) evne if you aren't at the library, as oyu put it. Because that's what the feat do.

I mean, when your first level wizard level ups in a random cave with his buddies after his first harrowing fight with some random goblin... how do you rationalize those two extra spells he gets on level up, when said level up is not in some comfy library? whatever rationalization you use for that, it'd work just the same for picking extra spell with a feat, floating or not, library or not.


I do specifically agree that if you use the floating feat to pick a spell that is not natively to any of the character spell list, then said character cna only use that spell while he has that feat, and scribing it wouldn't help at all at using that spell without the feat

[Crake]

Okay, seems like I came back to a bit of a confused mess regarding my note on using eidetic caster as a chameleon, so lets clear up some points.

- Can an eidetic spellbook be used by a chameleon: Of course. The spellbook is just a mechanism to store spells. Just as a chameleon can use a captured spellbook from a random wizard, so too can they use their wizard levels' eidetic spellbook, or a tattoo spellbook, or a staff spellbook. The spellbook is just the means of which the character can store the spells.

- Does getting the extra spell feat give you a free spell: Mechanically the eidetic spellbook works just the same as a normal spellbook, only it's saved in the character's mind. In a regular spellbook, if you get the extra spell feat, the spell becomes etched into the spellbook, and if it is changed later, the spell doesn't magically erase itself. Same principle applies to the eidetic spellbook, the spell becomes etched in the chameleon's memory, and when the feat is swapped out, the spell remains.

- Can you use chameleon to add non-wizard spells to your eidetic spellbook: Again, the spellbook is just a mechanism to store spells. Just as the chameleon could scribe nonwizard spells in a physical spellbook, they too can do the same for their eidetic spellbook. Extra spell simply says you can scribe a spell from your spell list, 1 level lower than the maximum spell level you can cast. Naturally, this becomes very limiting if you want to add non-wizard spells to your eidetic spellbook, as, if you only take 2 levels of chameleon, you will only be able to add 1st level non-wizard spells to your spellbook. However, just because they are in your eidetic spellbook, does not mean you can cast them from your wizard levels. I repeat, the eidetic spellbook is just a mechanism for storing the spells you know, just like any other spellbook. If a wizard stumbled upon a normal chameleon's spellbook, he would be able to use it to copy and cast wizard spells as normal, but would not have access to the non-wizard spells the chameleon scribed into it. Same situation applies.

- If a wizard 18/chameleon 2 is still limited to wizard only spells, then how does that allow them to learn every spell: Simple, you have the wrong build. The correct build is eidetic wizard 1/whatever 4/chameleon 10 (factotum+able learner at level 1 is always a good combo, and factotum3 is nice for brain over brawn, then cleric 1 for turn undead and domains is a nice final dip before chameleon. If you're dipping that much though, remember to take practised spellcaster to actually properly qualify for extra spell/extra slot, as your chameleon casting does NOT qualify you for those feats, however they CAN still be applied to your chameleon casting if you qualify separately). You use the extra spell slot feat, along with spell level boosting metamagic, and leapfrogging with the chameleon's floating bonus feat to get spellslots above the chameleon's normal max of level 6. By level 12 you can squeeze in 9th level spellslots, but if you want to be less gamebreaking, you can easily have it by level 15, and you have double aptitude to also have divine spellcasting. This is what gives you access to every spell in the game, double 9s from chameleon 10.

Edit: I have, as a DM, allowed that exact build in one of my campaigns by the way. The character had wedded to history, with the atrophied backstory, and the fluff behind the build was that they were remembering their former power as a previously epic spellcaster. They were basically retired as a character once they were able to cast double 9s super early on, but it was a fun concept to include.

[ciopo]

- If a wizard 18/chameleon 2 is still limited to wizard only spells, then how does that allow them to learn every spell: Simple, you have the wrong build. The correct build is eidetic wizard 1/whatever 4/chameleon 10. You use the extra spell slot feat, along with spell level boosting metamagic, and leapfrogging with the chameleon's floating bonus feat to get spellslots above the chameleon's normal max of level 6. By level 12 you can squeeze in 9th level spellslots, but if you want to be less gamebreaking, you can easily have it by level 15, and you have double aptitude to also have divine spellcasting. This is what gives you access to every spell in the game, double 9s from chameleon 10.

Do remember that none of the chamaleon class features can be used to qualify for anything, with the only exception being the floating feat itself.

This functionally means that as far as extra spell is concerned, chamaleon levels are equivalent to levels in commoner. When asked the "what is the highest spell level a commoner 10/chamaleon 10 can access" question, the answer is "none, chamaleon doesn't have spellcasting".


On the permanence of "resources" gained by the floating feat, that's a whole different kind of discussion

[Crake]

Do remember that none of the chamaleon class features can be used to qualify for anything, with the only exception being the floating feat itself.

This functionally means that as far as extra spell is concerned, chamaleon levels are equivalent to levels in commoner. When asked the "what is the highest spell level a commoner 10/chamaleon 10 can access" question, the answer is "none, chamaleon doesn't have spellcasting".

Correct, I addressed this in an edit, but to reiterate, you need at least CL5 from an outside source other than chameleon to qualify for extra spell or extra slot, this can be accomplished by either taking more than 1 level of wizard, or by taking the practised spellcaster feat. It could also in theory be provided by a spell-like ability of some kind, but wizard 5/chameleon 10 also works fine.

Keep in mind that while chameleon cannot be used to QUALIFY for feats, it can still be the recipient for their benefits, so you can qualify via wizard, but apply the benefits to chameleon.

On the permanence of "resources" gained by the floating feat, rthat's a whole different kind of discussion

Just remember, however you rule it for a physical spellbook, thats how it should work for an eidetic spellbook. If you wanna rule that it magically disappears from the physical spellbook, then by all means, remove it from the eidetic one too, but if it stays in the physical one, it should stay in the eidetic one too. Personally it makes more sense for me that it stays, rather than vanishes.

[St Fan]

- If a wizard 18/chameleon 2 is still limited to wizard only spells, then how does that allow them to learn every spell: Simple, you have the wrong build. The correct build is eidetic wizard 1/whatever 4/chameleon 10 (factotum+able learner at level 1 is always a good combo, and factotum3 is nice for brain over brawn, then cleric 1 for turn undead and domains is a nice final dip before chameleon. If you're dipping that much though, remember to take practised spellcaster to actually properly qualify for extra spell/extra slot, as your chameleon casting does NOT qualify you for those feats, however they CAN still be applied to your chameleon casting if you qualify separately). You use the extra spell slot feat, along with spell level boosting metamagic, and leapfrogging with the chameleon's floating bonus feat to get spellslots above the chameleon's normal max of level 6. By level 12 you can squeeze in 9th level spellslots, but if you want to be less gamebreaking, you can easily have it by level 15, and you have double aptitude to also have divine spellcasting. This is what gives you access to every spell in the game, double 9s from chameleon 10.

Okay, I really want to dismiss all of this as utter gibberish, but I would be lying to say that I'm not interested. However, I understand barely half of what you are saying, so I'd like for further, CLEAR explanations with intelligible words, so that I can at least properly consider how utterly unworkable that is.

How in the Nine Hell do you get spell slots above level 6 with a Chameleon? Extra slot itself is limited to one level lower. What level-boosting metamagic are you talking about? And no character can get level 9th spell slot before level 17, so there's no way any DM would let you get one at level 12. And HOW does that gives you access to more (arcane) spells, since a Chameleon still have to learn them like any wizard?

Explain, or admit you're making things up.

[Anthrowhale]

A wizard 20 with eidetic spellcaster taking Spell Mastery, Uncanny Forethought, and Obtain Familiar has 1 more feat than a sorcerer 20, several more spells known, and for levels 3,5,7,9,11,13,15, and 17 can access spells which the sorcerer cannot. The sorcerer does at least have more spells/day of available levels, but overall I could imagine a player preferring the sorcerer-by-wizard approach.

So, while eidetic spellcaster does not generally increase the power of a wizard, it does seem to create a fairly appealing alt-sorcerer.

Overall, it seems better than 'horrid' to me, although not a power-increasing choice. I applied it to the clockwork wizard for flavor reasons---I didn't want a spellbook which decayed into dust after a few megayears of apparent time.