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2020-08-05, 09:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
Looking back on it, it seems strange to me that the defenses for Dorukan's gate could be overcome by a party of low level adventurers. A couple hundred of the minions in the dungeon were brought in by Xykon and not part of the initial defenses. Other than the challenge Xykon provided, the protective measures keeping the gate safe were pretty weak: a Cloister spell, a dungeon full of low-level monsters, one secret door, and a single sigil that could only be touched by someone of pure heart. The path to the gate goes through "many dangerous areas", but it seems the most dangerous of these is the Corridor of Very Toxic Sulfur Fumes, which posed no problem at all to our heroes (or the teenage goblins). Even the elemental corridors from the Linear Guild arc were only to guard the talisman, not the gate. Compared to Soon's walled city full of paladins, Lirian's magic-sapping trap, and Girard's wily illusion pyramid, the Dungeon of Dorukan is downright pitiful. He was an epic-level Wizard, right? My only explanation is that Rich didn't have the gate theme or the Order of the Scribble fully thought out back then and it was just supposed to be a generic dungeon for a low-level party. What do you guys think is going on?
Last edited by pwning doodes; 2020-08-05 at 09:42 PM.
Originally Posted by Eliezer Yudkowsky
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2020-08-05, 09:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
His original purpose was to crack jokes about D&D players, and the silly rules of D&D, and to tell a story based on D&D with much irreverence.
Mission accomplished.
The Vin-Diesel-styled explosion at the end was icing on the cake.
What more are you asking for?Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
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b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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2020-08-05, 10:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
Dorukan originally wasn't even meant to be a person.
Roy himself calls his victory over Xykon a fluke .
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2020-08-05, 10:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
Presumably Xykon destroyed or disabled or whatever some of the nastier stuff that would've been a challenge for him, leaving only the stuff that he could just laugh off.
And that he could get a laugh out of his minions falling for.The stars predict tomorrow you'll wake up, do a bunch of stuff, and then go back to sleep.~ That's your horoscope for today.
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2020-08-05, 10:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
Well, the actual reason is that Rich never intended the comic to be taken seriously at that point like it is now - it was just a joke-a-day about D&D for people browsing his gaming articles. It retroactively became a part of this huge plot about the gates.
But we can construe the in-universe explanation to be that Xykon/Redcloak cleared out most of the actual threats in the dungeon before the Order even got there.An oasis of horror in a desert of boredom.
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2020-08-05, 10:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.
See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.
Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
Green is serious talk about hypothetical
Blue is irony and sarcasm
"I think, therefore I am,
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2020-08-05, 10:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
If someone is looking for in-universe explanations for all the stuff that happens when the comic was just a gag-a-day strip, I think sufficient retroactive explanations can be thought up without too much difficulty, as people are doing above.
The one thing I have no real in-universe, retroactive explanation for, however, is why Roy chose to lead a party of adventurers who found goblins challenging to face a lich we now know is an epic-level sorcerer backed up by a similarly leveled priest. Roy being a smart guy, I have to suspect he'd done enough research to know he was biting off a whole lot more than he could chew by going after Xykon at such a low level, and if not for that fluke victory and Xykon actively holding back the entire party would have been slaughtered.
Or maybe there's an explanation in Origin of PCs? Haven't read it yet.
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2020-08-05, 10:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
Redcloak was like level 15 at the time, but he still could probably have gone 1v1 against any member of the order.
Though I think the entire order was mid level? They got two levels in the dungeon, and then they were good enough to be called "already high level" during Roy's death.
In either case, the climax in the Dungeon of Dorukan would have been a slaughter had Xykon been serious. RC might have died if it was him vs the Order, but Xykon alone would have been more than a challenge for them.An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.
See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.
Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
Green is serious talk about hypothetical
Blue is irony and sarcasm
"I think, therefore I am,
I walk, therefore I stand,
I sleep, therefore I dream;
I joke, therefore I meme."
-Squire Doodad
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2020-08-05, 10:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
Also Xykon wanted a Good adventurer to unlock that sigil for him. Preferably low enough level to terminate them on the spot once it's done.
Yes, I am slightly egomaniac. Why didn't you ask?
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Originally Posted by Fyraltari
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2020-08-05, 10:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
Reminder: they skipped two dungeon levels thanks to Celia’s employee backdoor. Maybe those were really tough?
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2020-08-05, 11:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
The in-comic explanation is that Dorukan--the mighty wizard orchestrating all the defenses of his epic dungeon/gate defense--vanished a few months ago. It's the same reason Girard's pyramid was mostly defenseless.
If that isn't enough of an explanation, there's more from Start of Darkness.
Spoiler: Involves Start of DarknessXykon killed Dorukan outside the tower and subsequently routed his forces, save those related to the Amulet of Dorukan for which Xykon had no interest (Remember, touching the sigils was Nale's plan, to control the 2nd ed monsters). Since that was only a few months before the comic started as indicated by Redcloak training the new door guard, (which was evaded by Roy's OotS in the bonus strips at the start of "Dungeon Crawlin' Fools" {print} ) there may not have been enough time to bother setting up appropriate defenses. Or perhaps Xykon was so smug he didn't think he'd need the defenses, or to even hold the dungeon for long... the seal which inevitably exploded him was the only thing stalling his completion of the Gate ritual.Thought I'd try drawing in Rich's style with a lizardfolk. He looks... concerned. Maybe 'cause he lost the top of his spear!
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2020-08-06, 01:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
[QUOTE=pwning doodes;24648566]Looking back on it, it seems strange to me that the defenses for Dorukan's gate could be overcome by a party of low level adventurers.]
That was because Xykon needed them to make it through because of-
a single sigil that could only be touched by someone of pure heart.
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2020-08-06, 04:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-08-06, 04:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
Spoiler: DCF
Xykon delibrately laid out the dungeon with the weakest monsters first getting steadily more dangerous so he could sit back and watch the show.
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2020-08-06, 05:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-08-06, 05:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
Reality alters itself to be largely level-appropriate. It's built-in into the universe.
Last edited by hroþila; 2020-08-06 at 05:16 AM.
ungelic is us
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2020-08-06, 05:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
All the gates' defences are weakened by following the idiosyncrasies of their owners. Although funnily to some degree they all seem to have worked (Xykon *was* defeated at Lirian's gate). The problem really is that each member of the Scribblers only really made the gates secure against a fairly limited type off attack. Anything out of the left fields tends to overcome the defences.
Only Serinis defences are holding for a reasonable time against a determined assualt, and I suspect MitD sabotaging the system is helping. The problem really is that no one way of protecting the gates will keep determined attacker at bay, if a gatekeeper could expect to be supported by thier old comrades... well it'd be a totally differnt ballgame.
Dorukan's weakness was that he thought only magic would work, and he wasn't totally wrong, it did keep our Redcloak and Xykon, and it seems would have indefinitely, except for the arrival of our heroes. But it also relied on his own personal involvement as a powerful wizard. That didn't end up as well as he probably thought. Before he was lured out Dorukan seemed perfectly capable of keeping RC and Xykon out of his dungeon.
It's funny, the more I think of it the more I see ways in which each gate defence actually worked, yet eventually are brought down by flaws of it's creator. Even the Azure City one was winning, though more or less without the help of the city itself.
And let's not forget the key part, the OotS didn't battle through Dorukan's defences, they battled through what was left after the clash of Dorukan and Xykon.
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2020-08-06, 07:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
Xykon should have been an more then enough hard defence.
However, the reason was that Xykon wanted the order to come to the end of the dungeon so they could unlock the only defence he was not able to overcome. Probably brute force, fire and lightning weren't able to destroy the sigil that only a good character could unlock. So he let them go to the end sure that no fighter would try to throw him in the Gate.
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2020-08-06, 07:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
Xykon and RC overcame much of the defenses, including Dorukan himself.
#192 also shows a monster that caused them some trouble back in Dorukan's dungeon (and is seen in On the Origine of PCs).Posting from France
Sorry for my accent.
Thanks to neoseph7 for my avatar (Allen Walker from D.Gray-Man)
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2020-08-06, 08:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
Dorukan's defenses did hold out. Xykon and Redcloak couldn't breach them, and they were stuck there for months. Even after defeating Dorukan himself, they still couldn't get past the sigil, and while Xykon had figured out what he needed to do to unlock the Gate he still didn't succeed. I'd say Dorukan's defenses worked fine. By comparison, Serini's defenses have only held for a much shorter time so far, although it remains to be seen whether they too will be breached.
ungelic is us
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2020-08-06, 09:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
Each defense was modeled after its owner.
Soon believed in the power of honor and the community so had an entire paladin order.
The druid believed in the power of nature and had many natural defenses.
Dorukan seemed to believe in himself. He protected the gate with smaller weaker defenses to keep out things he didn't want to waste time on. True that he had help with big things but they appeared to be things he magiced up himself (summons, magic items and the like).
All the gates were doomed to failure as each person over specialized in its defense. If the Order had not crumbled each gate would of had more varied defenses.
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2020-08-06, 02:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
Well... I'd say that after Xykon killed Dorukan and took over his dungeon, that yeah, the defenses of that dungeon became quite weaker.
Also, it's already been pointed out that Xykon wanted some foolish adventurers to make it to the bottom and touch the gate anyway.Avatar by linklele!
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2020-08-06, 05:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
Many of the defences were designed to keep out Evil, but a Good person can pass them.
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2020-08-06, 06:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
Dorukan's own defenses were very, VERY sparas, because they're all a distraction: The only real defense is the sigils, and good luck getting to that, without tripping into Dorukan himself. Basically, all the other defenses are just meant to distract you and wear you down, because the only real defense is the rune-that-frys-anyone-evil, which is kinda all you need.
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2020-08-06, 07:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-08-06, 10:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
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2020-08-07, 04:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
Actually, to be clear. Xykon wanted the adventurers to be entertainment for the day. Which is why he designed his initial defences to be a lvl appropriate increasing challenge. Providing a humorous answer to the question why would a dungeon be like this anyway. RC quite sensibly suggest a more effective way if actually wanting to defend.
Half-way through, however, he learns through Nale's intervention that the good adventurers have a direct use in his gate related plans.
Of course Dorukan's defences is also defeated by an idiot bard pressing a self-destruction rune. In the sense that it blows the entire thing up and that intact gates are kinda vital. Girard's simlarly is destroyed by physical force, as is Soon's.
Girard's gate wouldn't have stood aginst the undead lich, descendents living or not I think? Though I don't remmber all of the discussions. Ultimately, Girard built defences against Soon's meddling more than anything. Which was his weakness, you can't hide and illusion away people who knows it's there because Serini had the exact cordinates.
Lirian's gate won, effectively. But for druids life is precious so she didn't kill the defeated where they stood. And made sure all of this happened.
Dorukan's gate was holding. But I'm not convinced it wasn't, given enough time, doomed to be revealed that someone good could bypass the final defence.
Soon's gate also nearly won. I can't argue Miko was unavoidable (though the Sapphire Guard kinda ends up defeating tiself), so am going to have to say Soon's defences at least would have worked against Xykon. Cosmic irony for the win I guess?
Of course there are meta reason the gates have to fall too. Hard to get around.
And there is a question what are the defences suppsoed to do, keeping away Xykon and RC's Plan that may or mat no work is one thing. But fundamentally the gates defences need to make sure the gates stand and rifts kept under control. None of them were very good at doing that.
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2020-08-07, 08:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
In fact, Lirian's was the Gate with probably the weakest defenses. I mean, were it attacked by that version of Team Evil which assaulted the other Gates, her trump card (the anti-magic virus (and, for that matter, any kind of virus)) would have failed to so much as tip the scales: Xykon would have been unaffected, Redcloak would have been unaffected, and were they to bring along a few ghouls, ghasts, wights and perhaps a couple major league undead monstrosities (the decoys come to mind), the whole business would have been little more than an evening walk for Xykon &Co.
Dorukan's gate was holding. But I'm not convinced it wasn't, given enough time, doomed to be revealed that someone good could bypass the final defence.
Soon's gate also nearly won. I can't argue Miko was unavoidable (though the Sapphire Guard kinda ends up defeating tiself), so am going to have to say Soon's defences at least would have worked against Xykon. Cosmic irony for the win I guess?
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2020-08-07, 08:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-08-07, 09:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why was the Dungeon of Dorukan so easy?
This, although the MitD's efforts may be pointless, and they play into one of the ways that the gates are protected. Kragor's Gate is the only one protected by not only brute strength but also magic and trickery, and I wouldn't be shocked if it's the only Gate with some sort of emergency 'warn the others if loss is likely' system.
It's not like Dorukan's Gate was poorly defended, even when past the initial defences Xykon (who as has been established, was level 21+) still couldn't do anything with the Gate he'd claimed. Unlike Soon or Draketooth the defence wasn't about being unable to get to the gate, but rendering it as impossible to use as he could (and also as undiscoverble as possible). It's also possible that the Amulet of Outdated Monsters was there as a distraction, I mean in a world run on narrative rules how likely is it that there are two major artefacts in one dungeon?
Each Gate is poorly warded against some kind of attack, but incredibly strong in another fashion. Dorukan's Gate was arguably better protected than Soon's, as sooner or later an epic level necromancer could overrun Azure City.