OOTS #953 - The Discussion Thread

[Keltest]

Then with two domains, I assume they would be Sunshine/Lollipops and Rainbows.

(And of course, Control Weather is in the Rainbows domain.)

cant it be in the sunshine/Lollipops domain too?

[czieg]

Just re-read the page, and I think Belkar has figured it out because of his face in that last panel. He may have realized that Durkon doesn't need to cast control weather to stop one of Thor's storms. Only Durkula would need to. Belkar has shown that he is the most aware of character changes. (Nale/Elan, even though that was just smell) Belkar always notices these things. He knows...
Or I may be reading way too much in-between the lines.

[Stella]

He may have realized that Durkon doesn't need to cast control weather to stop one of Thor's storms.

Why would you assume that? It's not like the gods already grant their clerics spells every day so that they can do really powerful magical stuff like controlling the weather, healing, dispelling magic, etc. Nope, the gods like to be bugged personally each time for actual dies ex machina divine intervention.

Oh, wait. They do grant their clerics spells every day to do cool stuff like that...

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Then with two domains, I assume they would be Sunshine/Lollipops and Rainbows.

(And of course, Control Weather is in the Rainbows domain.)

You don't think that Sunshine/Lollipops fits better with Death than with Rainbows? Of course, Control Weather is also on the standard Cleric spell list too.

[Tragak]

…What.

[BannedInSchool]

…What.

We don't know exactly what clerical domains are associated with Hel. Death is likely. However, the other may not be Destruction, but Sunshine/Lollipops. That would certainly help with public relations.

[FujinAkari]

Why would you assume that? It's not like the gods already grant their clerics spells every day so that they can do really powerful magical stuff like controlling the weather, healing, dispelling magic, etc. Nope, the gods like to be bugged personally each time for actual dies ex machina divine intervention.

Oh, wait. They do grant their clerics spells every day to do cool stuff like that...

So your argument is "Thor grants Durkon spells so Durkon can impede and counteract Thor's direct manifestations of power."

Seriously Stella, what we have here is a very directed, focused, and sentient storm, and the Cleric's response is to try and counter his god's will. You wouldn't find that suspicious?

I will grant you that many members of the Order may let their friendship blind them to the strangeness of the act, but I won't grant you that Durkon's actions are in any way routine or normal :)

[pendell]

Why doesn't Durkula come mostly clean?

"Lads, I'm not a cleric of Thor any more. Thor doesn't like vampires, and that's na my fault. I'm technically a cleric of Hel now -- in fact, her high priest because I'm her only worshipper on this mortal plane.

None of tha' changes the fact I dinna want Redcloak destroyin' the world or Xykon ruling it. I dinna ask to be an undead abomination, but tha' doesn't mean I don't have to constantly pay a price for it -- na just from mortals, but from the gods I once served with all my being."

Being as honest as possible would probably win sympathy points and foreclose any dramatic revelation -- because you've already revealed all of this with your own spin on it. The crucial omitted bit -- that "Durkon" is actually an evil spirit with a very malign agenda -- is something that would require something on the order of divine revelation to reveal.

It also prevents Durkula from being caught in a lie later, which would be much harder to explain away. After all, I strongly doubt Durkula will be able to pretend to be a cleric of Thor in a society with so many of his worshippers, or if they encounter the High Priest of Thor. So the sooner this admission is made, the fewer problems in the long run. Better to admit the truth with your own spin then to outright lie or conceal only to be caught out later.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[RadagastTheBrow]

You don't think that Sunshine/Lollipops fits better with Death than with Rainbows? Of course, Control Weather is also on the standard Cleric spell list too.

Actually, Death and Rainbows are perfectly suitable domains for a worshiper of the Nordic pantheon, on account of the Rainbow Bridge to Asgard. They're also pretty fitting for any gamer clerics who've played Rainbow Road on Mario Kart.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Actually, Death and Rainbows are perfectly suitable domains for a worshiper of the Nordic pantheon, on account of the Rainbow Bridge to Asgard. They're also pretty fitting for any gamer clerics who've played Rainbow Road on Mario Kart.

Excellent point. I hate that course so much.

[Mathalor]

@pendell

That is an excellent point, as well as one of the reasons I no longer watch sitcoms. Durkon can and should have explained more of what his change means, more than, I'm no more evil than Belkar. With the ability to claim any evil or neutral god or cause or whatever that he wishes, he doesn't even have to admit to Hel worship. He has no reason to hold back here and doing so is going to lead to conflict later.

His standing with the Gods has necessarily changed. I'm surprised that anyone would ever believe that an evil vampire would ever be a cleric of Thor, or that Thor would accept such, and no one has actually asked Durkon about it. Do these people talk to each other?

[Aquillion]

@pendell

That is an excellent point, as well as one of the reasons I no longer watch sitcoms. Durkon can and should have explained more of what his change means, more than, I'm no more evil than Belkar. With the ability to claim any evil or neutral god or cause or whatever that he wishes, he doesn't even have to admit to Hel worship. He has no reason to hold back here and doing so is going to lead to conflict later.

His standing with the Gods has necessarily changed. I'm surprised that anyone would ever believe that an evil vampire would ever be a cleric of Thor, or that Thor would accept such, and no one has actually asked Durkon about it. Do these people talk to each other?

Two reasons I can think of.

One, they lack Knowledge: Religion ranks. We know that Thor is a Good god who won't accept an Evil worshiper; they don't know how those things work.

Two, much more importantly -- they want to believe everything is all right. Remember back when Belkar told them Durkon was dead? Roy was ready to flat-up kill him rather than listen to him. Now they have someone in front of them telling claiming to be Durkon and telling them everything is fine; especially given their desperate circumstances, they're going to be very inclined to just accept it at face value and not ask questions.

Belkar was more cynical (and actually saw Durkon die), so he's questioning it, but the others aren't in a state of mind where they're likely to ask questions. Roy doesn't want to feel like he's doubting his best friend; Elan feels the same way, probably, and has an idealistic outlook to begin with. Haley might have doubted it, but she's inclined to trust both Roy and Elan due to her close relationship with them. V, I think, is the only other one who might ask more questions, but is currently distracted by worries over the whole genocide / deal-with-the-devil thing and has little time to spare worrying about Durkon. And all of them are so relieved to have Belkar "back" (both for personal reasons and because their situation is currently so dire) that they're not inclined to question it closely.

Because of all that, Durkon can get away with just a quick excuse, and most of the party will either gloss over it or force themselves to believe it.

Again, as I pointed out -- most of us, as readers, were happily inclined to accept Durkula's explanations (and in fact there were some people on the forums who got very heated arguing in defense of him.)

[dmaxno]

This may have been posted before, but even Durkon didn't realize that Malack was an evil spirit driving around the body of the lizard-cleric from long ago. I think that Roy's remorse over Durkon being turned into a vampire and his probable lack of the proper knowledge skill (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html) means that he will stand for Durkula, thinking (or wanting to think) that it is still Durkon. Belkar is still talking to Roy, but I think he needs to be talking to Haley and Vaarsuvius. I expect some interesting tension between Roy and Haley once she gets suspicious and V should be joining in at some point. However, my guess is that Roy will be in denial until something obvious happens (Durkula dominating Belkar and getting away before being 'resurrected' or just revealing himself when he bring mayhem to Durkon's old Dwarven home).
As for the casting of control weather, my guess is that it will have no effect (or very limited), but just enough to get Durkula where he needs to go. I do think Thor has the upper hand on the weather, but I am sure hHel was expecting this, she may have a way to just get them to Durkula's destination.
As much as I want Durkon to get back on top, I am curious what Hel wants Durkula to accomplish. I am waiting to see her plans being revealed.

[Trurl]

Sorry I don't believe that Durkula's disguise has just blown. Yes, it is apparent to everyone that the storm was sent by a deity (presumably Thor) on purpose. Now, if Durkula actually succeeds in controlling that storm, he could argue that the storm was sent by Thor so that he (Durkula) can prove he's still in good relations with Thor. And if he doesn't succeed, he could argue that as Thor has forsaken him he's now kind of a "free" cleric finding another affiliation and could ask for the group's support in his quest. Any way, the group would have good reasons to further trust him, because either he's "still Durkon, but with an evil accent", or "still Durkon, but needs help and is honest about it".

By the way: Durkon casting Control weather is not exactly untypical: 352

[Jay R]

Why doesn't Durkula come mostly clean?

...win sympathy points and foreclose any dramatic revelation
... prevents Durkula from being caught in a lie later,
So the sooner this admission is made, the fewer problems in the long run.

You have come up with a very clever and reasonable way for him to prevent many of the slip-ups, confusions, and plot complications that form the basis of this story.

Rich isn't trying to simplify the situation and reach the end of the quest. He's trying to complicate the situation and fill up two more books of this story to sell.

[Mathalor]

@Aquillon

You don't need knowledge of religion to tell that good and evil mean important things when it comes to perspective and behavior. Evil is more than an entry on your character sheet. Durkon is now evil where he was good, and freely admits it. None of the characters, none of his 'friends,' have bothered to ask him what that means. Further, the idea that Durkon could be evil and continue to function as the lawful good Thor's cleric as if nothing had happened at all is nonsensical. There shouldn't be a skill check to notice that. Maybe a skill check to detect whatever excuse he gave, but not to notice he's a walking contradiction. Except he never gave an excuse. And no one ever asked for one. And these people are supposed to be friends.

Some of the characters, especially Roy, may be in some kind of denial about the whole thing, Belkar's not very smart and can be obnoxious enough that no one takes him seriously, but Haley and even Elan should really be able to tell that Durkon being evil should mean more than wearing black and sporting some fangs. V may be self absorbed, but has gone through his own corruption and deeply regrets it, and probably would have said something, probably even saying something first. Do these people even talk to each other?

Finally, Durkula or whatever should really know better. He's playing a deception game. That's a lot easier if you make the lie a small one, like, I'm a corrupted Durkon who now is evil, and not large and preposterous, like, Thor's cool with it. There's really no reason for him not to make up some sort of explanation of what his evil means and how that fits into his religious observance, and one of his, 'friends,' really should have asked for one pretty much as soon as they were away from Tarquin and relatively safe. He's evil now. That's a huge and sudden change. Don't these people talk to each other?

@Jay R

I certainly hope that a character's motivation for their actions cannot be only, because the author needs the story to be longer. Maybe that might work for Elan and Tarquin because observation of the story is a part of their characters, but Durkon or Durkula or whatever has no knowledge of the story or it's author, and acts upon his own desires and understanding. Or should. His friends, Elan included, should care about him enough to ask after him, if they haven't there should be a reason why. These people should have talked to each other.

[Jay R]

Please don't tell me that a character's motivation for their actions can be, because the author needs the story to be longer.

When you completely re-write a reasonable statement in order to make it appear stupid, you almost always throw out the author's intended meaning to do so. That's what you have done here.

No, the character's motivation isn't to continue the story. But the author's intent is. Therefore of the ten thousand motivations that a character might reasonably have, the author will choose the one that best furthers the story.

Thus, McCoy helps get Kirk on the Enterprise to help his friend. His motivation wasn't so Kirk could recognize what the Romulan ship was, and thus save the Enterprise, but that's why the author had him decide to help his friend aboard.

Sam learns from the orcs that Frodo is alive, so he rescues him from the orc lair. The orcs didn't say, "Let's talk about this guy being alive so somebody will come rescue him," but that's why Tolkien decided that they would say that at that exact moment.

If Rudolph is not treated unfairly, his leading the sleigh on a foggy night wouldn't be a vindication, so all of the other reindeer used to laugh and call him names. That doesn't mean all the reindeer sat around and decided to exclude him in order to set up his triumph; it means that the story called for them to be the sort who would exclude him.

If you have to completely re-write somebody's words to get the meaning you want, then it probably isn't his meaning.

[zimmerwald1915]

Do these people talk to each other?

It's been three days since the last book ended, and Durkon spends his days isolating himself belowdecks (at night, of course, every Order member but V would be asleep or possibly bathing an ape). It's entirely possible that no one has talked to him.

[Mathalor]

Even if they slept twelve hours a day, they still would have seen each other coming and going. And if D was downstairs, people could have gone down there and talked to him.

[Stella]

So your argument is "Thor grants Durkon spells so Durkon can impede and counteract Thor's direct manifestations of power."

Not quite. My argument is that Thor grants his clerics spells so that he isn't bothered by calls for divine intervention anytime a cleric of his wants to heal a hangnail. Cute Light Wounds is granted to his clerics for purposes such as that. Or even healing damage caused by a lightning bolt during a storm, if you want a situation which could be presumed to be caused by Thor's specific intent. Cure Critical Wounds is granted to Thor's clerics for purposes such as that.

The assumption that Durkon (even were he unvampirized) would resort to a cry for divine intervention when Thor specifically grants him access to Control Weather is specious. If Thor wants to resort to divine intervention in the functioning of the spell, I suppose he can, and I see that as a far better operation of divine intervention than having a cleric with a Control Weather spell invoking divine intervention to change the weather before even bothering to cast their deity granted spell which can accomplish exactly that same result without bothering their god.*

If Durkon didn't have access to a spell which could solve a problem, then prayer would be a more reasonable response to the situation. Such as when the "short legged" 15' tall Durkon said he was praying to Thor to be able to move faster. But even then Durkon did get there in time, so Thor would have been well withing his rights, had he been attracted by the prayer into looking down on the situation and watching what was going on, to be pissed at his cleric for asking for something he didn't really need. You know, just like praying to Thor to change the weather when you have a Control Weather spell.

Seriously Stella, what we have here is a very directed, focused, and sentient storm, and the Cleric's response is to try and counter his god's will. You wouldn't find that suspicious?

Seriously, FujinAkari, what we have here is one (and probably both low level and low in ranks of Knowledge: Religion) member of the crew making the assumption that the storm is caused by Thor (I don't know where you get any indication that the storm itself is sentient, but epileptic trees sprout everywhere on these forums).

And yes, the cleric's response is to first use his deity granted spells to try to handle the situation. It is the best and most logical course of action, and is far, far better than jumping to the unfounded and unverified conclusions that:

1) Thor did cause the storm;
2) Thor did it specifically to hurt Durkula and/or the Mechanae and crew;
3) Thor will be upset at the casting of a spell he himself granted his cleric to deal with situation like this;

Even Bandana himself didn't make any such wild assumptions. All he said was "[...] this storm isn't Adad's work - it's Thor's", and then he told Roy that "your vampire" should "intercede." Note that "intercede" does not have to mean "forget all about the fact that you are a powerful spell caster, get down to calling for divine intervention in the same way a L1 peasant might."

What's wrong with Durkon (again, even unvamparized) simply assuming that Thor is having some fun, had no idea one of his clerics was going to be placed in danger by this fun, and would not mind at all moving his fun to some other part of the sky once his storm in this part of the sky is Controlled into clear skies? That is clearly a better course of action than "Hmmm, one person says the storm is caused by Thor. Guess I'd best call in all my divine intervention tokens and get Thor down here to handle the situation!" Yeeaahhhhh...



* That said, the situation we actually have here is a storm presumably caused by Thor and a cleric of Hel casting Control Weather to change it. I would still expect a cleric of Hel to cast Control Weather before invoking the divine intervention of Hel to influence the weather. And I've got the canon example of Lurky Corpsewhiskers doing exactly that to support my expectation.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Next page is Thor and Hel yelling at each other, and Thor is mad that Hel took his cleric.

Hel says something like "You had many clerics and I didn't have any. You still have many clerics and I have one. Just one!

How in the world are you being treated unfairly here? If the balance inclines, it is still very much in your favor.

Do I intervene in the world to kill your clerics and disrupt them? No, we agreed no direct intervention, just clerics. Every time I wanted to see something done in the mortal world, you reminded me of that! Every time!

And I never had any clerics! But the rules were soooooo important to you. Now that I get a chance to play, you suddenly get to break the rules."

Except much shorter and more well-written. So, Thor stops trying to intervene. and the storm doesn't come back. The Lots dismiss the clue that is the storm, and get no more divine-intervention-type-clues.

[BrotherMirtillo]

cant it be in the sunshine/Lollipops domain too?

Only if you want a storm where all the raindrops are lemon drops and gumdrops. (Oh, what a rain that would be!)

Personally, I'd find it funny in a Schadenfreude kind of way if the prophecy got fulfilled by the simple expedient of

Spoiler: rambling speculation

Show

the airship crash-landing onto a dwarven mountain.

Oh no, don't get me wrong -- Durkon won't be killing/destroying dwarves. What's happened is that a guerilla swarm of pine saplings has sprung up on a peak right next door to the main tunnel entrance. The dwarves have gathered at their gate at dawn for one final stand, when suddenly, the flaming gaseous behemoth descends from the heavens and obliterates the arboreal invaders. And then, from the burning wreckage, there will rise a fanged dwarf who has cloaked his entire crew in Protection from Fire.

There will be much rejoicing, and the fanged dwarf shall be welcomed as a hero who has won a war, who has delivered all of the victories and destruction on behalf of every dwarf in the land.

And then they will all have cake and nothing bad will happen to anybody ever the end.

[FujinAkari]

(I don't know where you get any indication that the storm itself is sentient, but epileptic trees sprout everywhere on these forums).

Because the storm appears within seconds of the Mechane appearing within a region Thor is allowed to manifest within and shooting lightning bolts that actually turn in mid air to avoid the lightning rod. That is some magic bullet dynamics, right there.

I mean, come on, the strip specifically says the storm is Thor's doing, so I'm not sure how or why you are attempting to argue it isn't.

What's wrong with Durkon (again, even unvamparized) simply assuming that Thor is having some fun, had no idea one of his clerics was going to be placed in danger by this fun

Because That is inconsistent with Durkon's character.

[Prospekt]

If this is just a random bad storm, then yes, Control Weather is a perfectly fine solution. Too bad that may not exactly be the case here. I mean, we have a huge context clue here- it went around the lightning rod to hit a vital part of the airship, and it's happened after they've changed regions to Thor's skies. While the spell itself might solve the situation (we've yet to truly see, thanks cliffhanger), if this were Durkon, it would be completely out of character. Storms are sacred to him, and he'd search for the divine meaning rather than, "Welp, time to flip the bird to Thor's will." If this were still Adad's skies and this same thing happened, I wouldn't bat an eye, because yeah, Durkon sorta didn't worship Adad.

[Keltest]

Because That is inconsistent with Durkon's character.

Keep in mind youre working from a sample size of one. Even if we assume that the Order has never encountered a thunderstorm in the approximate year since then, that doesn't establish a pattern of behavior. Especially since we know for a fact he was wrong.

[DaggerPen]

How about blue?

You know, that's just mean to forum newbies who don't know any better.

I see. I wonder what kind of spells that domain grants.

Prismatic Spray, of course.

Why doesn't Durkula come mostly clean?



Being as honest as possible would probably win sympathy points and foreclose any dramatic revelation -- because you've already revealed all of this with your own spin on it. The crucial omitted bit -- that "Durkon" is actually an evil spirit with a very malign agenda -- is something that would require something on the order of divine revelation to reveal.

It also prevents Durkula from being caught in a lie later, which would be much harder to explain away. After all, I strongly doubt Durkula will be able to pretend to be a cleric of Thor in a society with so many of his worshippers, or if they encounter the High Priest of Thor. So the sooner this admission is made, the fewer problems in the long run. Better to admit the truth with your own spin then to outright lie or conceal only to be caught out later.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Bandana: So... you're saying that this storm is being caused because Thor hates you for being undead?

HPOH: Aye, lass. It's unfortunate, but I s'ppose thar's not much ta be done.

Bandana: Yeah, okay, I'm going to need you off my ship. We'll find someplace safe to let you off, but I can't risk my entire crew to the wrath of a god for one cleric.

A simple "Control Weather" is probably the safer expedient.

[zimmerwald1915]

Bandana: So... you're saying that this storm is being caused because Thor hates you for being undead?

HPOH: Aye, lass. It's unfortunate, but I s'ppose thar's not much ta be done.

Bandana: Yeah, okay, I'm going to need you off my ship. We'll find someplace safe to let you off, but I can't risk my entire crew to the wrath of a god for one cleric.

A simple "Control Weather" is probably the safer expedient.

Ah, if only Jonah knew control weather...

[lolthfollower]

Belkar seems like he is actually the one helping the team instead of just killing everything in sight, yet they just happened to ignore him this one time. It is obviously because they can't unveil the secret yet, and I am not critizing anyone when I say this, but it seems like they would at least test Belkar's theory. As I type this, I realize just how unlikely it is for them care what Belkar thinks.

[DaggerPen]

Belkar seems like he is actually the one helping the team instead of just killing everything in sight, yet they just happened to ignore him this one time. It is obviously because they can't unveil the secret yet, and I am not critizing anyone when I say this, but it seems like they would at least test Belkar's theory. As I type this, I realize just how unlikely it is for them care what Belkar thinks.

How exactly *could* they test Belkar's theory?

[Stella]

Because the storm appears within seconds of the Mechane appearing within a region Thor is allowed to manifest within and shooting lightning bolts that actually turn in mid air to avoid the lightning rod. That is some magic bullet dynamics, right there.

The storm appeared just as soon as they crossed from an area where Thor can't create storms into an area where Thor can create storms. That is a fact, but perhaps not as remarkable a fact as you appear to think it is, given that, once again, Thor couldn't have made a storm in Adad's area of control. It's like you're claiming that there is some remarkable significance about the fact that an expedition from the Earth's equator to the North Pole never encountered snowfall until the air temperature dropped significantly. Stop the presses! Or, don't stop the presses, because that is when you'd expect to see snow. What would be newsworthy would be running into snowfall along the equator. What would be newsworthy would be running into a storm caused by Thor in Adad's region. What isn't newsworthy, yet and if ever, is a storm caused by Thor in the area where Thor can cause storms.

What are not established as facts, and what you failed to address in your reply, are the assumptions that:

1) Thor did cause the storm;
2) Thor did it specifically to hurt Durkula and/or the Mechanae and crew;
3) Thor will be upset at the casting of a spell he himself granted his cleric to deal with situations like this;

Also, there is a significant difference between "Thor caused (and perhaps directs) the storm" and "The storm is sentient." A difference you appear not to understand, much like you appear to not understand that wild speculation about the sentience of weather patterns distracts from the possible relevancy of anything else you might have to say.

I mean, come on, the strip specifically says the storm is Thor's doing,

Because I mean, come on, "the strip" specifically says no such thing. One NPC character in the strip has decided that this is the case. You need Word of God (author) before you can make a statement that "the strip" backs a claim.

And regardless of whether Bandana is right or wrong about the cause of the storm, his accuracy about the cause of the storm has absolutely nothing to do with your wild speculation that the storm is sentient. If a cleric casts Control Weather, the storm is not sentient. If I fire a gun at someone, the gun is not sentient. And while there is a lot of detail on the power of the Gods in the Stickverse which has yet to be revealed, and which Word of God has said is against his own interests to reveal, there is no real reason why a storm either caused by Thor or controlled by Thor needs to be sentient.

so I'm not sure how or why you are attempting to argue it isn't.

I mean, because, come on, I'm not at all trying to argue that the storm isn't Thor's doing. Only that 1) it might not be, and 2) even if it is, the significance you are attaching to it might be vastly overstated.

Because That is inconsistent with Durkon's character.

You might think so, but so far it appears that no one else in the comic does. And since one NPC character's reaction appears to carry the weight of certainty with you, then I'm sure that the reactions Roy and Belkar will weigh even more heavily in your estimation. If you are going to be consistent, that is. Because 2 > 1, right?

After Lurky Corpsewhiskers cast his Control Weather spell Roy is smiling at the way Durkon just shut down Belkar's ranting, and Belkar is just standing there speechless after having gone off on an epic rant.