The LA-assignment thread VIII: Way Too Much For Vampirism

[liquidformat]

Fair, but huecava touching the evils paladins is not RAI either, and those all are all explicitly only accessible with DM permission (as per the opening of Unearthed Arcana) that trying to include them in an analysis seems pointless.

I mean at this point for 5+ years now every DM I have ever come across has given the blanket statement that SRD class variants are on the table without question, it isn't like they are some obscure thing pulled out of an issue of dragon magazine. So I don't think it is unreasonable to be bringing them up in an optimization thread such as this. With that said I agree with you that by RAW and RAI paladins of Slaughter and Tyranny do not get the bonuses from blackguard unless they 'fall' from grace with their current patron god/demon prior to becoming a blackguard or by becoming a blackguard. However, Huecava has no such stipulation of needing to have fallen to gain said benefits it just gives benefits to a paladin similar to those given to a fallen paladin that becomes a blackguard.

So the easy solution is to obviously be trying to gun for the character by giving every weapons specifically designed to bypass their defensive and eschewing monster encounters entirely? That's bad DMing at best in most situations; DR/silver is rare, so there is no "reasonable" way to spam it.

Lock me in at +2; you have convinced me

If we were talking about adamantine or even magic & silver I would agree with you; however, silver ammunition is 2gp, light weapons are 20gp and so on these prices are easily affordable even for a level 1 npc. They aren't rare, the only thing that makes them 'rare' is the setting and adventure you are playing. If we are talking about random encounters or a dungeon crawl sure enemies with silver weapons are 'rare'. However, if we are talking about the main enemies of a long running campaign, nah not buying it.

From my perspective the net zero abilities scores with a massive -6 int hit ends up being a big loss to this template that is balanced out by undead type. Turn Res is also moot since being undead makes it mandatory and while some turn res is better than none this isn't exactly stellar.

That Leaves DR 15, NA 4, and class specific bonuses to determine the score for this template, as the slam and disease are pretty forgettable. Honestly if we broke it down by class this template would be -0 for Clerics and Druids, and just barely skims by at +1 on a monk due to the defensive benefits and getting a slam. For a paladin the bonuses are only as good as how many paladin levels you invest even then it isn't enough to make paladins jump up to tier 3.

In fact if we go by your RAI interpretation that it only works for a 'fallen paladin' then that flips into a huge negative since you don't get enough benefits to counter balance the loss of all those class features. Honestly if we are using your interpretation that the bonuses only work on a fallen paladin I am comfortable calling this template -0 for anyone with 5+ paladin levels. 4 NA and DR 15 and the small number of bonuses from being a 'fallen paladin' aren't enough to makeup for 5+ levels of warrior.

The real issue I see with this template is DR 15, it is powerful from level 1 to about level 8 having a decent swing in power level depending on the opponent/campaign. It is ok until maybe level 15, after that there are enough powerful magic and powerful builds in play that make it forgettable. Honestly if LA buy off was in play for these I would be comfortable with a +2 LA, however, since it is explicitly not I see no argument that DR 15 is worth a loss of two levels.

[Sutr]

I guess +2, its an unreasonably bad +2. Being immune to nonmagic melee an ranged attacks for entire games that are played make it that. On the plus side the comic had someone make one so I guess your creator probably had some feats that didn't contribute to the LA just like we say with an unrated template for giants.

[lord_khaine]

That said, ignoring paladin shenanigans for now the huecava is hardly exceptional, especially with its narrow range of viable classes. Clerics and druids don't want to lose spell levels (and clerics want to keep their domains, too), paladins don't want to fall, and monks are, well, monks. The template may not have been designed with evil paladins in mind, but it sure works better for them than for any other class.

Monks may be monks, but the point remain that the template does a lot for them.
A buff to their main stat. Natural armor. And a damage reduction thats going to be a pain to deal with.

Because im certainly not buying the idea of NPC's with silver weapon.
Not on anything but recurring enemies.
Normal opponents should go "skeleton!" and try to get hammer.

So LA +2

[danielxcutter]

Monks may be monks, but the point remain that the template does a lot for them.
A buff to their main stat. Natural armor. And a damage reduction thats going to be a pain to deal with.

Because im certainly not buying the idea of NPC's with silver weapon.
Not on anything but recurring enemies.
Normal opponents should go "skeleton!" and try to get hammer.

So LA +2

As others have said, that depends somewhat on the type of campaign.

Dungeon crawling where each enemy will likely only face you once or twice in a relatively short period? Yeah, that DR is practically DR/-; most beings capable of bypassing it will likely do so easily for other forms as well.

A campaign with frequently recurring enemies and/or forces of enemies? Yeah, expect a Cloud of Knives to the face by round 3 at the latest.

[liquidformat]

As others have said, that depends somewhat on the type of campaign.

Dungeon crawling where each enemy will likely only face you once or twice in a relatively short period? Yeah, that DR is practically DR/-; most beings capable of bypassing it will likely do so easily for other forms as well.

A campaign with frequently recurring enemies and/or forces of enemies? Yeah, expect a Cloud of Knives to the face by round 3 at the latest.

Yeah this is the way I have thought about it as well. For the most part in games where I have been allowed to play as evil guys the party has normally been facing good guy organization if not straight up good themed religion. And especially in a situation with a good religion as the enemy the DR might as well be non existent. I suppose it is a similar situation to water breathing and swim speed though granted I would lean on it being a lot more commonly useful.

[Unavenger]

I can count on no hands the number of times that a DM I've played with has reacted to a player's DR by equipping more than a couple of enemies with an appropriate weapon type. More importantly, if they're spending their money/time/spell slots/actions on silver weapons, they're not spending those resources on being stronger in general, which means that even if your DR/silver is being negated, it's still doing something - wasting enemy effort that might otherwise be spent on things which aren't bypassing your DR.

I still don't think it really saves this from being just LA +1, but it's so many levels of not the case that DR/silver is only useful for the first few encounters of a campaign that it pains me that some people are actually trying to argue that.

[Blue Jay]

I vote LA +1 for the huecuva. The Undead traits and DR would basically be an LA +1 template on their own. And I don't think the other benefits would boost it into LA +2 territory even if I ignored the big Int penalty and the domain swap.

[danielxcutter]

I can count on no hands the number of times that a DM I've played with has reacted to a player's DR by equipping more than a couple of enemies with an appropriate weapon type. More importantly, if they're spending their money/time/spell slots/actions on silver weapons, they're not spending those resources on being stronger in general, which means that even if your DR/silver is being negated, it's still doing something - wasting enemy effort that might otherwise be spent on things which aren't bypassing your DR.

I still don't think it really saves this from being just LA +1, but it's so many levels of not the case that DR/silver is only useful for the first few encounters of a campaign that it pains me that some people are actually trying to argue that.

Wouldn’t that depend largely from table to table? Your DR helps immensely due to your hit points being rather poor, especially at higher levels. Besides, silver weapons might be considerable investment, but silver ammunition really isn’t.

[Lapak]

I vote LA +1 for the huecuva. The Undead traits and DR would basically be an LA +1 template on their own. And I don't think the other benefits would boost it into LA +2 territory even if I ignored the big Int penalty and the domain swap.

This is where I land on it, with the caveat that it only applies to monk and paladin bases as the others lose much too much out of the deal. I just don't think it rises to +2, especially under the theory (that most of this thread has operated under IIRC) that mostly-defensive benefits don't count for as much unless they come with enough punching power to make you dangerous to ignore - and this doesn't. It's a survivability boost to certain melee-focused types but doesn't bring a whole lot to the table that adds to the actual defeating-your-foes part.

[lord_khaine]

Wouldn’t that depend largely from table to table? Your DR helps immensely due to your hit points being rather poor, especially at higher levels. Besides, silver weapons might be considerable investment, but silver ammunition really isn’t.

So the enemy goes from throwing stones to smacking you with a greatsword?
I count that as a win. Especially since silver weapons have an inherent -1 damage penalty.
And are unlikely to be enchanted unlike your opponents main weapons.

That again meanwhile. Is only in the specific situation where your fighting an organisation.
Whom i still doubt will have an easy time gearing all its members with silver.

No, in most of the cases with might as well be dr/-. Especially when fighting monsters.
Thats why i vote +2. Because this degree of dr is close to invulnerable against a large degree of enemies.

[danielxcutter]

...Didn’t you read the comment? I said silver ammunition isn’t that much an investment, cost-wise. They go from throwing pebbles at you to turning your skull into a colander with silver arrows. Besides, silversheen is a thing.

[liquidformat]

I can count on no hands the number of times that a DM I've played with has reacted to a player's DR by equipping more than a couple of enemies with an appropriate weapon type. More importantly, if they're spending their money/time/spell slots/actions on silver weapons, they're not spending those resources on being stronger in general, which means that even if your DR/silver is being negated, it's still doing something - wasting enemy effort that might otherwise be spent on things which aren't bypassing your DR.

I still don't think it really saves this from being just LA +1, but it's so many levels of not the case that DR/silver is only useful for the first few encounters of a campaign that it pains me that some people are actually trying to argue that.

And how many games have you played where the players had 10+ DR before level 10? This template seems like a bit of an outlier. But I can't really say I agree with your assessment on silver weapons since the actual investment of 2-180gp isn't large enough investment to make them stronger in general, especially after level 1.

[RoTWS]

Spoiler: Emerald Legion discussion

Show

Isn't half-troll the template that ties the Emerald Legion together? There's more than Primordial cheese on this template.

Eh, it’s mostly to turn War Trolls back into the Giant type. They’re normally monstrous humanoids, remember?

The really cheesy templates in the Emerald Legion are Gheden (from Dragon #313) and Half-Clay Golem (from Monster Manual II), and Gheden's cheese is more about how you get it and how it combines with Regeneration. (Incidentally, an Emerald Legionnaire's ECL would be 12 (War Troll) + 1 (Gheden) + 2 (Half-Troll) + 2* (Voidmind) + 1 (Lycanthrope) + 4 (Dire Bat RHD) plus whatever Inevitability gives Half-Clay Golem when we get to it in MMII (it currently has an em-dash), so 22* plus an unknown template.)

As for the huecuva, I'd put this as LA 1. Note that RAW, a huecuva has no way to get effective blackguard levels except by taking actual blackguard levels, and all of the ex-paladin blackguard abilities except smite good's attack bonus and one die of sneak attack depend on blackguard class levels. That said, trading in five (anti)paladin levels while keeping at least nine gives you a total of:
Five blackguard smites
Two (anti)paladin smites
Lay on Hands for yourself and your fiendish servant
Deadly Touch for yourself and your undead companion
Divine grace twice over
Either a double-up on Aura of Despair or both Aura of Despair and Debilitating Aura
Two sneak attack dice
Second-level (anti)paladin spells and third-level Blackguard spells
Combined rebuke undead
Cause disease twice a week
Summon Monster I once per day
A special mount, a fiendish servant, and an undead companion that gains bonuses as a fiendish servant. The companion has to be a medium skeleton or zombie, but there's no other RAW on what kinds of base creatures you can or cannot skeletonize/zombify to get an undead companion.
Note that blackguards get 4th-level spells at 7th level and (anti)paladins get them at 14th level, so it's impossible for a below-epic character to have fourth-level spells in both classes even without factoring in the huecuva level adjustment.

Edit: To the people calling for +2 based on monk and paladin: Really? You're using the monk as an argument for why an LA should be raised? Last I checked, monks were tier 5, and the lowest we're willing to go for balancing purposes is tier 4.

[danielxcutter]

Well, I guess swordsages do benefit somewhat as well...

[TotallyNotEvil]

Yes, -6 INT sucks.

But DR 15 and the big Wis boost is too much for me to rate it less than +2.

Especially at low levels, you are going to be outright no-selling attacks from raging, power-attacking barbarians, and this much retains usefulness well into the late game, as long as you keep your AC competitive so they can't PA through it without cost.

Nearly anyone who can take it will enjoy its benefits and don't really notice the downsides.

@edit: Thought you got +6 Wis, too. My bad on that, but still feel like it's a +2.

[danielxcutter]

You don’t have SR, I think? So you’re just as vulnerable to blasting spells (even more, perhaps, as you lack a Constitution score). Also, why are so many people ignoring silver arrows and silversheen?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Especially at low levels, you are going to be outright no-selling attacks from raging, power-attacking barbarians, and this much retains usefulness well into the late game, as long as you keep your AC competitive so they can't PA through it without cost.

Nearly anyone who can take it will enjoy its benefits and don't really notice the downsides.

I think you're overestimating the power of DR 15 versus a barbarian, and underestimating the downside of -6 Intelligence and Constitution --.

(1) The damage for a raging, Power Attacking barbarian is around 2d6+13 to 2d6+15 at level 3 (the lowest ECL you think the huecava should be at). So right from the start, barbarians will damage you on most or all hits. At level 6, the damage for a raging, Power Attacking barbarian is around 2d6+21 to 2d6+22. Obviously, your DR is still helping a lot at this point, but it's likewise pretty obvious that it's going to get outclassed by barbarian damage pretty soon, and we're not even into the teens yet. And with a morale pool that's probably a third behind a typical cleric*, and no additional defenses against magical attacks, that DR is just enough to get by (when it comes to barbarians, that is. Gnome sword-and-board fighters, you can kill all day--but then so can a crusader).

(2) Nearly anyone who can take it will have only one skill point per level after taking it, meaning that they won't be able to max out both Concentration and Knowledge (religion). I'd say that's a pretty bad drawback for a divine caster, wouldn't you?

Also, what "big Wis boost" are you talking about? It's a +2, I didn't think that was anything special? The sum total of ability boosts is zero.


*The sweet spot for huecava hit points (in terms of "not being far behind the cleric") is right at that level where the cleric can't quite afford an amulet of health.

At level 2, the huecava has 1d12 (12 hp) against the cleric's 2d8+6 (18 hp). That's with 14 Constitution for the cleric, and LA +1 on the huecava.
At level 6, the huecava has 5d12 (38 hp) against the cleric's 6d8+12 (42 hp). This or hereabouts is the sweet spot.
At level 10, the huecava has 9d12 (64 hp) against the cleric's 10d8+30 (78 hp). The cleric has bought an amulet of health +2.
At level 14, the huecava has 13d12 (90 hp) against the cleric's 14d8+56 (122 hp). The cleric is wearing an amulet of health +4.
At level 18, the huecava has 17d12 (116 hp) against the cleric's 18d8+90 (174 hp). The cleric is using an amulet of health +6.

Obviously, compared to a paladin, or a cleric with a higher starting Constitution, the huecava is even worse off. Likewise, a huecava rated at LA +2 will be even further behind, and will also lose a full spell level (if a spellcaster) or significant feats/base attack/saves etcetera. There's pretty much no way to come out ahead on anything but DR with this template, and that DR can be obtained more easily with quasilycanthrope.

[danielxcutter]

Note that living Clerics can still boost their hit points with Bear’s Endurance and/or Righteous Might even before they can afford Con-boosting items. The only item I know of that grants any undead more hit points continuously is the Bilious of Demogorgon, and that’s a third-party major artifact from the Savage Tides adventure path.

There’s a reason most non-caster undead tend to have DR, RHD bloat, Unholy Toughness, or all of the above. Otherwise they just won’t have the defenses to last more than a round. Sometimes they still don’t even then (though high-level martial character damage getting ridiculous is also a factor, to be fair). I think that’s why 5e gave up on non-abilities entirely.

[Esprit15]

Note that living Clerics can still boost their hit points with Bear’s Endurance and/or Righteous Might even before they can afford Con-boosting items. The only item I know of that grants any undead more hit points continuously is the Bilious of Demogorgon, and that’s a third-party major artifact from the Savage Tides adventure path.

There’s a reason most non-caster undead tend to have DR, RHD bloat, Unholy Toughness, or all of the above. Otherwise they just won’t have the defenses to last more than a round. Sometimes they still don’t even then (though high-level martial character damage getting ridiculous is also a factor, to be fair). I think that’s why 5e gave up on non-abilities entirely.

There's also Corpsecrafter and Desecrate, but both of those are not really applicable to this instance.

[danielxcutter]

Desecrate is a fixed-location spell and there’s even less room to argue that Corpsecrafter applies than Necropolitans, so... yeah.

Seriously, why are these CR +2 like liches? Jeez.

[Inevitability]

+1: 8 votes
+2: 4 votes

+1 for the Huecava it is, entry will be updated.

[lord_khaine]

Also, why are so many people ignoring silver arrows and silversheen?

Because, ranged attack bonus on a non-dedicated ranged character is a generally a joke. 1d8-1 silver arrow damage isnt going to matter if they cant get past your +4 natural armor.
And silversheen is an obscure alchemical item. I can count the number of times i have seen NPC's have it on a beholder hand.

I think you're overestimating the power of DR 15 versus a barbarian, and underestimating the downside of -6 Intelligence and Constitution --.

(1) The damage for a raging, Power Attacking barbarian is around 2d6+13 to 2d6+15 at level 3 (the lowest ECL you think the huecava should be at). So right from the start, barbarians will damage you on most or all hits. At level 6, the damage for a raging, Power Attacking barbarian is around 2d6+21 to 2d6+22. Obviously, your DR is still helping a lot at this point, but it's likewise pretty obvious that it's going to get outclassed by barbarian damage pretty soon, and we're not even into the teens yet. And with a morale pool that's probably a third behind a typical cleric*, and no additional defenses against magical attacks, that DR is just enough to get by (when it comes to barbarians, that is. Gnome sword-and-board fighters, you can kill all day--but then so can a crusader).

So.. DR 15 allows you to survive a hit from one of the most extreme damage outliers, and you downplay it?
Yes raging barbarians will damage you on all hits. They will also kill most others in the same hits.

So as such, that isnt even relevant. In the wast majority of relevant cases your not going to fight other PC's.
How many times have anyone fought an encounter at level 1-2 against someone doing 2d6+22 damage?
The high end of damage i can find around level 3 is a Ogre smacking you for 2d8+7. Thats only going to tickle most of the time.

[Inevitability]

Hullathoin

Hullathoin are 16 RHD Huge undead with a variety of flavorful abilities.

First the chassis: it's okay. High strength and moderately boosted mental stats are neat, and -2 dexterity is a small price to pay for that. +20 natural armor is never bad, DR 15/magic and silver is similarly useful, immunity to cold is good, resistance to fire and sonic is good, SR 26 is neat, and fast healing 8 lets you get around the hassle of healing an undead creature.

In terms of natural attacks, hullathoins have a bite, two stomps, and two tentacles (notably absent in the image) that deliver 1d10 strength damage poison. Improved Grab and Improved Grapple also let it use the tentacles to grab foes more easily.

Special abilities are quite neat: Deform further reinforces the sensible norm that charisma doesn't represent beauty except for PCs, and lets the hullathoin deal 1d10 charisma damage to pinned victims. Ring of Pus is an unimpressive AoE that deals some strength damage. Rebuke Undead as a 20th-level cleric is actually kind of neat, and lets the hullathoin do some minionmancy on the side.

Finally, there's Exude Bloodfiend Swarm which, according to RAW, allows for the creation of infinite bloodfiend locust swarms. For obvious reasons, creating one hard-to-kill, level-draining, nausea-inducing vampire spawn-creating swarm per round is problematic. I'll assume that this ability is either capped somehow, or just removed entirely.

With all that in mind, I don't think the hullathoin is particularly playable. No limbs, poor HD, and a relative lack of special attacks mean that wading into melee and controlling a few undead is the best to aspire to. -0* LA for now, open to arguments for +0*.

[danielxcutter]

Honestly I have no idea why these are as high CRed as they are. They’re not total wimps in terms of abilities, but still...

[Efrate]

-0*. Theres a lot there but 15 undead hd and no access to flight, unusual manipulators and limited communication are pretty big humps to get over. Sounds like a great pet evening sensibly limiting the swarm, but not as a PC.

[ExLibrisMortis]

So.. DR 15 allows you to survive a hit from one of the most extreme damage outliers, and you downplay it?

I'm downplaying it to contrast with TotallyNotEvil playing it up. It's a stylistic thing.


-0* for the hullathoin.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I think you're overestimating the power of DR 15 versus a barbarian, and underestimating the downside of -6 Intelligence and Constitution --.

(1) The damage for a raging, Power Attacking barbarian is around 2d6+13 to 2d6+15 at level 3 (the lowest ECL you think the huecava should be at). So right from the start, barbarians will damage you on most or all hits. At level 6, the damage for a raging, Power Attacking barbarian is around 2d6+21 to 2d6+22. Obviously, your DR is still helping a lot at this point, but it's likewise pretty obvious that it's going to get outclassed by barbarian damage pretty soon, and we're not even into the teens yet. And with a morale pool that's probably a third behind a typical cleric*, and no additional defenses against magical attacks, that DR is just enough to get by (when it comes to barbarians, that is. Gnome sword-and-board fighters, you can kill all day--but then so can a crusader).

(2) Nearly anyone who can take it will have only one skill point per level after taking it, meaning that they won't be able to max out both Concentration and Knowledge (religion). I'd say that's a pretty bad drawback for a divine caster, wouldn't you?

Also, what "big Wis boost" are you talking about? It's a +2, I didn't think that was anything special? The sum total of ability boosts is zero.


*The sweet spot for huecava hit points (in terms of "not being far behind the cleric") is right at that level where the cleric can't quite afford an amulet of health.

At level 2, the huecava has 1d12 (12 hp) against the cleric's 2d8+6 (18 hp). That's with 14 Constitution for the cleric, and LA +1 on the huecava.
At level 6, the huecava has 5d12 (38 hp) against the cleric's 6d8+12 (42 hp). This or hereabouts is the sweet spot.
At level 10, the huecava has 9d12 (64 hp) against the cleric's 10d8+30 (78 hp). The cleric has bought an amulet of health +2.
At level 14, the huecava has 13d12 (90 hp) against the cleric's 14d8+56 (122 hp). The cleric is wearing an amulet of health +4.
At level 18, the huecava has 17d12 (116 hp) against the cleric's 18d8+90 (174 hp). The cleric is using an amulet of health +6.

Obviously, compared to a paladin, or a cleric with a higher starting Constitution, the huecava is even worse off. Likewise, a huecava rated at LA +2 will be even further behind, and will also lose a full spell level (if a spellcaster) or significant feats/base attack/saves etcetera. There's pretty much no way to come out ahead on anything but DR with this template, and that DR can be obtained more easily with quasilycanthrope.

I goofed on the Wis, thought Hurcuvas got +6 to it instead of +2, but nevertheless, the DR point stands.

Anyone getting hit by that kind of damage at those levels is going to be instantly annihilated. You even point out the expected HP of a Cleric, which is a fairly sturdy class!

And I did qualify my statement with "as long as you keep your AC up". So the Barnarian tanking his to-hit with all-out PA isn't terribly likely to get through heavy armor + NA (he'd be rolling, what, +4~+6 vs an AC in the low twenties?). And even if he does, he hits you for a bit of damage while, again, anyone else that got hit like that would be gone.

Another poster commented on a CR 3 Ogre smacking someone for an average of 16 damage. Your 12 HP suddenly don't look so little when you only take 1-2 damage whenever you are hit.

To say nothing of going up against creatures or builds that rely on multiple weaker hits. They are throughly ****ed, and a lot of monsters go for the multiple natural weapon routine.

So yes, the DR 15 is a massive advantage in survivability.

Even by 10th level, if both your comparison cleric and the Huecuva take a single hit, the Huecuva gets ahead in HP left. By 14th, the difference is little more than two hits. The difference grows every time the DR triggers.

It's a very strong +1, and a weak-ish. +2.

[Thurbane]

I'd like to do a detailed breakdown, but there's just too many HD there for me to get enthused. LA -0* from me for the Hullathoin.

[lord_khaine]

With all that in mind, I don't think the hullathoin is particularly playable. No limbs, poor HD, and a relative lack of special attacks mean that wading into melee and controlling a few undead is the best to aspire to. -0* LA for now, open to arguments for +0*.

No limbs he says. While posting a picture of a 4-limbed creature with 2 tentacles he himself points out are missing

Else. The chasses seems quite solid.
The stat boost likely crazy high when it comes to str. And with all the natural defences, it looks like this will make for as solid a bruiser as most other melee classes this level.
I cant see -why- someone would want to play this thing. But i could easily see why someone would want it as a cohort. And there LA +0 seems reasonable.
The same does apply if someone actually want to play it.

[danielxcutter]

30 Strength sounds good until you realize that Fire Giants also have that, and a better BAB to boot. You do have a good number of natural attacks (not many monsters even go over 3, let alone 5), but your to-hit is abysmal for your level.

You also have rather poor hit points for a bruiser. The resistances are nice, but there’s nothing stopping a martial character from walking up and cutting you down.

I think the poison DC might be Cha-based, but it’s still rather low. Poison is hard to use at this level anyways.

There are no daily uses stated for the Rebuke, so I’m guessing it’s 3+Cha as normal. Divine feats help, but it still has limits.