The Elder Scrolls XVI: Sworn to Carry Your Burdens

[InvisibleBison]

So... What do people think about the theory that the horn of Jorgon Wingcaller being made from Paarthurnax's missing horn?

I don't think the shape of the Horn is the same as that of Paarthurnax's horn. Also, I find it likely that Jurgen got his horn when he was a war-leader of the Nords, before he founded the Way of the Voice and (presumably) before he met Paarthurnax.

[Lord Raziere]

I find it disappointing that despite the game playing up the connections between the Thieves Guild and the Brotherhood that you can't really do anything with it. Interactions between the two ae really minor.

Maven Blackbriar can threaten you with her dark brotherhood contacts even after her contact is dead and you've taken over the Dark Brotherhood.

You'd think that "I'm in the Dark Brotherhood/I am the Dark Brotherhood" would be a simple enough thing to program in.

If you've completed both questlines you basically own her ass because if she goes against you you can take her down with you and she just can't have you assassinated but it doesn't really play out that way.

Unfortunately Skyrim is just plain the least complete installment of the series. there is a lot of cut content and things they just didn't add for the sake of a release date. the reason its lasted so long is because of mods and because they haven't made Elder Scrolls 6 yet, lets be honest.

[factotum]

It's not a very good THIEF quest-line at all. If you want to imagine the thieves guild as a organized club of cat burglars and cut purses, it completely fails at that.
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It's a decent MOBSTER questline.

Maybe, although getting approached by a thieves' guild member on the assumption you're totally a thief and want to join up is a bit odd whichever way you look at it--you could be a 6 foot 6 orc with a two-handed axe and a badge saying "I KIL THIEVES 4 FUN" and the same approach will be made. Then there's the fact the plotline requires you to assume that the main actors in it have sat on their hands for the last 25 years since Gallus died and only now decided to do anything, which is particularly odd in the case of Mercer Frey. Speaking of showing their hands, what is it with how these so-called thieves behave when you're forced to accompany them in dungeons? As soon as combat starts they run right into the middle of the enemy screaming insults, start hacking away with a sword, and very rapidly go down, which would be fine, except them doing that has probably pulled you out of stealth as well, so if you *are* playing as a proper thief you're kind of SOL at that point.

Thinking about it, sorry, even if you assume mobster to fix some of the more egregious terrible writing in the questline, it doesn't make it a decent questline at all, IMHO. There's just too much in it that's broken or illogical.

[veti]

You're talking about a guild whose idea of thieving is to run up to a heavily armed traveller, with an equally imposing companion, on the highway in broad daylight, brandish a small knife of inferior quality, and say "give me all your money".

The wonder is that any of them are still alive.

[Aeson]

You're talking about a guild whose idea of thieving is to run up to a heavily armed traveller, with an equally imposing companion, on the highway in broad daylight, brandish a small knife of inferior quality, and say "give me all your money".

The wonder is that any of them are still alive.

To be fair, that seems to be more or less the standard modus operandi of highwaymen in TES games. Granted, the highwaymen in Oblivion generally carried maces or warhammers rather than small knives while bandits like Nels Llendo and Fjol the Outlaw in Morrowind could actually be somewhat dangerous depending on how good your character's combat skills were when you encountered them.

[Spore]

You're talking about a guild whose idea of thieving is to run up to a heavily armed traveller, with an equally imposing companion, on the highway in broad daylight, brandish a small knife of inferior quality, and say "give me all your money".

The wonder is that any of them are still alive.

Technically if you ignore magic and/or super powerful player characters this makes a lot of sense. Who would fight a majority of bandits when one stab can be potentially lethal if the alternative is a hefty sum of septims?

[LibraryOgre]

So... What do people think about the theory that the horn of Jorgon Wingcaller being made from Paarthurnax's missing horn?

Haven't heard it, but I now endorse it.

[Thomas Cardew]

Maybe, although getting approached by a thieves' guild member on the assumption you're totally a thief and want to join up is a bit odd whichever way you look at it--you could be a 6 foot 6 orc with a two-handed axe and a badge saying "I KIL THIEVES 4 FUN" and the same approach will be made. Then there's the fact the plotline requires you to assume that the main actors in it have sat on their hands for the last 25 years since Gallus died and only now decided to do anything, which is particularly odd in the case of Mercer Frey. Speaking of showing their hands, what is it with how these so-called thieves behave when you're forced to accompany them in dungeons? As soon as combat starts they run right into the middle of the enemy screaming insults, start hacking away with a sword, and very rapidly go down, which would be fine, except them doing that has probably pulled you out of stealth as well, so if you *are* playing as a proper thief you're kind of SOL at that point.

Thinking about it, sorry, even if you assume mobster to fix some of the more egregious terrible writing in the questline, it doesn't make it a decent questline at all, IMHO. There's just too much in it that's broken or illogical.

Most of those are endemic to Skyrim as a whole. The world revolves around you as the PC. Nothing gets done unless you do it and nothing happens if you don't. Everything has to be offered for you to do. Time means nothing.

You can indefinitely delay dealing with a cataclysmic magic explosion if you want. The Forsworn will always just be attacking when you enter Markath. The Civil War is locked in an eternal stalemate until you chose to intervene. Heck, you can be the exalted leader of the Companions, Archmage of the College, Slayer of Alduin, and dressed in armor made of the bones of Dragons you personally killed, and yet some farmer will ask you to look for a stray dog instead of standing slack-jawed a walking Legend.

So yeah. All the quest lines suck in Skyrim because the writing was silly, player can't be shut out of doing anything, and there's no time constraints. The Thieves' Guild quest isn't any worse about these things than the other quests are. Some kid is doing the black sacrament for MONTHS and EVERYONE in the world knows it except the actual Brotherhood. It's just the tonal mismatch between player's expectations and reality is much worse for the Theives' quest. In Oblivion, we were master thieves pulling off a heist for the ages and stealing an actual Elder Scroll. In Skyrim, we were low talent /low rent muscle.

[veti]

To be fair, that seems to be more or less the standard modus operandi of highwaymen in TES games.

True, but as you note, they were better qualified in the old days. Also - we don't know whether they were affiliated with the guild, but the ones in Skyrim definitely are.

Technically if you ignore magic and/or super powerful player characters this makes a lot of sense.

A traveller on the road routinely has to fight off wildlife up to and including frost trolls. Literally nobody not capable of handling one lone thief would have made it that far in the first place.

What gets me most about that encounter is that there's actually an option to intimidate them into slinking off, and it never works, no matter how obviously overmatched they are.

Some kid is doing the black sacrament for MONTHS and EVERYONE in the world knows it except the actual Brotherhood.

As Astrid later reveals, they did know. My guess is that they also knew the kid had no money...

[Rynjin]

Maybe, although getting approached by a thieves' guild member on the assumption you're totally a thief and want to join up is a bit odd whichever way you look at it--you could be a 6 foot 6 orc with a two-handed axe and a badge saying "I KIL THIEVES 4 FUN" and the same approach will be made. Then there's the fact the plotline requires you to assume that the main actors in it have sat on their hands for the last 25 years since Gallus died and only now decided to do anything, which is particularly odd in the case of Mercer Frey. Speaking of showing their hands, what is it with how these so-called thieves behave when you're forced to accompany them in dungeons? As soon as combat starts they run right into the middle of the enemy screaming insults, start hacking away with a sword, and very rapidly go down, which would be fine, except them doing that has probably pulled you out of stealth as well, so if you *are* playing as a proper thief you're kind of SOL at that point.

Thinking about it, sorry, even if you assume mobster to fix some of the more egregious terrible writing in the questline, it doesn't make it a decent questline at all, IMHO. There's just too much in it that's broken or illogical.

While the random solicitation is indefensible, I don't think the implication has been they've been sitting on their hands for forever. Mercer has basically just been skimming off the top for the last 25 years, and the plot basically catches up with "Later losers! I got all the money finally!".

Well, except for Karliah. She's just been doing **** all this whole time I guess.

[Rater202]

You can completely rebuild the blades from the ground up and bring several of your companions to them to join...

But once the story progresses to a certain point, they won't do anything for you, the person they are sworn to serve, unless you kill the one dragon that is completely nonhostile without any prompting on your part.

and only that dragon. They don't demand Odahviing or your undead dragon whose name I can't spell off the top of my head to die, only Paarthurnax.

And the only way to resolve that quest is to do it, thus alienating the Greybeards, the easiest way to find new Word walls. There's no option to tell them to screw off, no option to compel them to work for you anyway, no option

I get the feeling that Bethesda thought that would be a harder decision than it was, but the Blades are just kind of jerks in Skyrim.

...The Civil War questline is another questline where it honestly seems like they should have taken the time to program in more options.

If you haven't resolved the war by the tie you need to call Odahviing, you have to negotiate a ceasefire before you'll be allowed to use the dragon trap.

You can literally be down to the final seige on one side with your faction controlling almost the entire country save for the capital of a single hold but you still have to coded territory(or kick out the Thalmor bitch) when really at his point it should be more like negotiating terms of surrender.

Or, if you've stayed out of the war until this point and are completely neutral... There should be an option to tell Talius and Ulfric t shut the hell up, stop treating this as an opportunity to further the war effort because this is bigger than some petty squabble. Shout them down, literally, if you have to. By this point in the main storyline you should be powerful enough to take them both in a straight fight.

[Fyraltari]

Shout them down, literally, if you have to. By this point in the main storyline you should be powerful enough to take them both in a straight fight.

The point of which would be?

[Keltest]

The point of which would be?

Causing them to bleed out their ears until they listen to you like adults.

[Rater202]

The point of which would be?

Providing an option for player who want to maintain complete neutrality in the Civil War instead of picking a side.

As it is, the only "Neutral" option favors the Imperials. The Imperials give up some holds and kick the Thalmor Bitch out of the meeting. The Stormclaoks give up one more hold than they got.

Quite literally all you're doing if you do this is further destabilize the region as several holds are shaken up at once while giving one side an advantage over the other.

Or you can blatantly favor one hold, but that's not neutral.

Or you can skip this by winning the war for one side or the other.

There's no true neutral option.

This is odd, because the Dragonborn canonically is supposed to feel the same will to power and desire to conquer and destroy as a dragon does, because the Dragonborn is a dragon, just a differently shaped one.

You'd think "beat the two warring jackanapes into cooling their jets and playing nice instead of making land grabs during what's supposed to be a ceasefire" would be the first thing they think of.

[Keltest]

Providing an option for player who want to maintain complete neutrality in the Civil War instead of picking a side.

As it is, the only "Neutral" option favors the Imperials. The Imperials give up some holds and kick the Thalmor Bitch out of the meeting. The Stormclaoks give up one more hold than they got.

Quite literally all you're doing if you do this is further destabilize the region as several holds are shaken up at once while giving one side an advantage over the other.

Or you can blatantly favor one hold, but that's not neutral.

Or you can skip this by winning the war for one side or the other.

There's no true neutral option.

This is odd, because the Dragonborn canonically is supposed to feel the same will to power and desire to conquer and destroy as a dragon does, because the Dragonborn is a dragon, just a differently shaped one.

You'd think "beat the two warring jackanapes into cooling their jets and playing nice instead of making land grabs during what's supposed to be a ceasefire" would be the first thing they think of.

Its not entirely out of the question that theyre refraining from cracking skulls out of respect for the Greybeards, who have made their opinions on using violence as a means to an end, and the Voice in particular, very clear.

[Fyraltari]

You'd think "beat the two warring jackanapes into cooling their jets and playing nice instead of making land grabs during what's supposed to be a ceasefire" would be the first thing they think of.

And they'd probably realize that it's impossible to make either of these men listen to an opposing viewpoint by force. Threaten them with violence to do things your way and you'd just make them sure that's the way they don't want to go. Especially since they both now you can't actually back any threat: kill them and you're back to where you started execpt worse. And the Greybeards wouldn't approve anyway.


I mean, that's the entire point of getting them to seat at a negotiation table, making them negotiate. Nobody said they'd have to be merry about it.

Edit: I'm not sure I remember correctly but can't you have each side give as may holds to the other if Elenwen stays?

[Rater202]

Elewen leaving or saying counts as a concession to confirm or deny. Denying it might leave open a concession later, I honestly don't remember, but considering that she's not supposed to be there in the first place and that she's personally responsible for Ulfric going down the path that led to the Civl War to begin with I count her staying as favoring the Imperials...

Actually, that's another thing. You can grab the Dosier that flat out says that the Thalmor tortured Ulfric into his current mindset and their plans to use him as a pawn to weaken the empire for a further conflict when you're in the Thalmor Embassy.

You can have that on your person during this meeting.

You'd think that General Tullius would be interested in the fact that the Thalmor are planning to stab the Empire in the back even after the Empire signed a ridiculously onesided treaty. Ulfric might be interested to know that his rebellion was planned in advance by the Thalmor bitch that tortured him and that he's playing into the Thalmor's hands and that he is not in fact, personally responsible for the Empire losing the Great War.

You know, the fact that the person who is most directly responsible for the Civil War sitting at that table right now? That's the kind of thing that you'd think people would be interested in.

That's a perfect opportunity for a "neutral" resolution to the war.

[Keltest]

You'd think that General Tullius would be interested in the fact that the Thalmor are planning to stab the Empire in the back even after the Empire signed a ridiculously onesided treaty.

Heres the thing. This isnt a secret. If you help the Stormcloaks win, Tullius says as much to Ulfric. The Imperial plan is to rebuild and either be ready for the sudden but inevitable betrayal, or get the first blow in themselves.

[veti]

This is odd, because the Dragonborn canonically is supposed to feel the same will to power and desire to conquer and destroy as a dragon does, because the Dragonborn is a dragon, just a differently shaped one.

The "power hungry" option is to win the war for the imperials. If the Stormcloaks win, Ulfric is king. But if the Imperials win, the legion will go away and let Skyrim work out its own politics, within reason. That's the Dragonborn's opportunity.

[Lord Raziere]

The "power hungry" option is to win the war for the imperials. If the Stormcloaks win, Ulfric is king. But if the Imperials win, the legion will go away and let Skyrim work out its own politics, within reason. That's the Dragonborn's opportunity.

Its also arguably the best one, given that the empire isn't happy about their patron saint god being suppressed and a second dragonborn defeating Thalmor would help revive Talos worship, Skyrim being kept as a province would be better when they go to war with the thalmor- which is pretty much an inevitability- humans historically have been real "screw you elves" in Elder Scrolls, just ask the Snow Elves or the Ayleids, oh right you can't, humans killed them, humans aren't to going to take this lying down. and Skyrim would be a good source of warriors to have. while the Stormcloaks are racist jerks if they were charge, they would just be independent of the Empire, kick out all non-nords and screw themselves over by being jerks to everyone and that will only help the Thalmor.

so there is no point to backing Ulfric or even being neutral unless you see the empire being forced to sign the White-gold Concordat as some unforgivable act on the empire's part for some reason.

[Keltest]

The "power hungry" option is to win the war for the imperials. If the Stormcloaks win, Ulfric is king. But if the Imperials win, the legion will go away and let Skyrim work out its own politics, within reason. That's the Dragonborn's opportunity.

Indeed. Nominally they have a pretty strong claim, since the Greybeards are respected by all Nords, and the last person they summoned like they did the Dragonborn was, well, Talos. The best move here, from a cynical political powergrab standpoint, is to side with the Imperials, become a big famous soldier in the war, reunite Skyrim, then use your soldierly Imperial clout to marry Elisif and push your claim as Dragonborn, the one who retrieved the Jagged Crown, the Unifier of Skyrim, blah blah blah.

[veti]

The best move here, from a cynical political powergrab standpoint, is to side with the Imperials, become a big famous soldier in the war, reunite Skyrim, then use your soldierly Imperial clout to marry Elisif and push your claim as Dragonborn, the one who retrieved the Jagged Crown, the Unifier of Skyrim, blah blah blah.

Although you could make the opposite move - side with the Stormcloaks and then marry Ulfric instead... That way you can have an independent kingdom.

[Rater202]

Heres the thing. This isnt a secret. If you help the Stormcloaks win, Tullius says as much to Ulfric. The Imperial plan is to rebuild and either be ready for the sudden but inevitable betrayal, or get the first blow in themselves.

There's a difference between suspecting an inevitable betrayal and having objective proof that the betrayal has technically already happened.

The dossier on Ulfric Stormclaok not only implied that the Thalmor have manipulated Ulfric into starting the war but that the Thalmor are actively prolonging to extended the stalemate and weaken the empire.

Since neither the Empire nor the Stormclaocks want anything that benefits the Thalmor to happen, providing said proof to them both at the same time is likely to get them on the same page and more open to the possibility of a genuine peaceful resolution that doesn't leave the EMpire weak or Skyrim vulnerable and gets the damned Thalmor our of Skyrim.

The "power hungry" option is to win the war for the imperials. If the Stormcloaks win, Ulfric is king. But if the Imperials win, the legion will go away and let Skyrim work out its own politics, within reason. That's the Dragonborn's opportunity.

If the Imperials win, Elesif as the last Highkings's widow who already lives in the capital is almost certain to achieve the throne, and the implication is very much that only the Jarls are in the running.

You are at most a war hero, and there'd no way in the main game to marry Elesif or any of the Jarls and thus find yourself in a position to ascend to the throne.

Not unless you actively campaign from it... And since he Dragonborn has quietly been a good servant who just kind of stumbles into positions power, they have no reason to listen to you if you're campaigning to become the new king.

a conquest option would be something along the lines of not siding with either faction, probably via doing something with Balgriff since he only sides with the Imperials when Ulfric forces his hand, and then doing quests that involve driving both the Imperial army and the Stormclaokcs away from hold capitals and getting the Jarls who are currently in place to side with you ending with you defeating Ulfric or Tullius or both and that determining whether Skyrim uner your rule stays with the Empire or dlecares indipendance.

[Lord Raziere]

Although you could make the opposite move - side with the Stormcloaks and then marry Ulfric instead... That way you can have an independent kingdom.

Still only second best.

Dragonborn status literally means you have blood or status equal to Talos himself when he was the first emperor. that isn't a claim to just Skyrim, thats a claim to the entire Cyrodilic Empire, since the last person with any blood relating to Talos was Jauffre, and y'know what happened with him. The Medes have no blood relation and the whole magic that the empire ran upon to keep out the the daedra in Oblivion was the dragonborn bloodline descended from Talos. Basically? the Dragonborn has the potential to be a second Talos and bring the Empire back to being strong again, thats a lot more power than just Skyrim from a cynical political perspective.

[Keltest]

Although you could make the opposite move - side with the Stormcloaks and then marry Ulfric instead... That way you can have an independent kingdom.

Which then gets run over by either the Empire, the Thalmor or Both, depending on how the politics to your immediate south goes.

There's a difference between suspecting an inevitable betrayal and having objective proof that the betrayal has technically already happened.

The dossier on Ulfric Stormclaok not only implied that the Thalmor have manipulated Ulfric into starting the war but that the Thalmor are actively prolonging to extended the stalemate and weaken the empire.

Since neither the Empire nor the Stormclaocks want anything that benefits the Thalmor to happen, providing said proof to them both at the same time is likely to get them on the same page and more open to the possibility of a genuine peaceful resolution that doesn't leave the EMpire weak or Skyrim vulnerable and gets the damned Thalmor our of Skyrim.

Again, Tullius and the Empire are already aware of this, in spirit if not the literal information. Theyre already operating under the assumption that the Thalmor are going to break the truce when its convenient for them, treaty be damned, and Tullius flat out calls out to Ulfric that his actions are helping the Thalmor and will, in the long run, doom Skyrim to conquest. Ulfric either believes he knows better or is actively being manipulated by the Thalmor. Either way, the whole reason there is a civil war is because he is unable to make himself be patient and play the longer game to work with the Empire.

[Rater202]

Which then gets run over by either the Empire, the Thalmor or Both, depending on how the politics to your immediate south goes.

On two separate occasions I beat the main questline before starting the civil war. Once for the Imperials and once for the Stomrclaoks.

turns out, no matter how high your level is, the game will never spawn in soldiers high enough in level that Odaviing can't singlehanded win any given battle in the Civil War storyline.

Then there's the possibility of the Dragonborn showing up alone to the first invasion force and using Storm Calling to take out an entire army at once. When you can summon electrical storms that sent blasts of lightning to invariably target every living thing in the area but you, you don't need an army.

Edit: Ulfrick's shear hatred of the Thalmor is implied to because they have him convinced that he i singularly responsible for the Fall of the Imperial City.

Proof that they lied and proof that they're actively benefiting from his coup might make him listen.

Meanwhile, as I already said, there's world of difference between "being prepared for betrayal" and "knowing it's already happened."

The first is something to keep in mind.

The second is something to do something about right now... Like say arresting the traitor who is literally right there on the spot.

Either the Thalmor burn her and claim she and hers were acting alone and there invasion plans are delayed... Or the White-Gold Concordant is broken the Thalmor lose every resource they have in the empire as they either pull out or let their agents be arrested/killed.

Either way, the Thalmor's plans are severely delayed.

Edit: Weird brainfart.

[Keltest]

On two separate occasions I beat the main questline before starting the civil war. Once for the Imperials and once for the Stomrclaoks.

turns out, no matter how high your level is, the game will never spawn in soldiers high enough in level that Odaviing can't singlehanded win any given battle in the Civil War storyline.

Then there's the possibility of the Dragonborn showing up alone to the first invasion force and using Storm Calling to take out an entire army at once. When you can summon electrical storms that sent blasts of lightning to invariably target every living thing in the area but you, you don't need an army.

Edit: Ulfrick's shear hatred of the Thalmor is implied to because they have him convinced that he i singularly responsible for the Fall of the Imperial City.

Proof that they lied and proof that they're actively benefiting from his coup might make him listen.

Meanwhile, as I already said, there's world of difference between "being prepared for betrayal" and "knowing it's already happened."

The first is something to keep in mind.

The second is something to do something about right now... Like say arresting the traitor who is literally right there on the spot.

Either the Thalmor burn her and claim she and hers were acting alone and there invasion plans are delayed... Or the White-Gold Concordant is broken the Thalmor lose every resource they have in the empire as they either pull out or let their agents be arrested/killed.

Either way, the Thalmor's plans are severely delayed.

Edit: Weird brainfart.

Its not actionable information though. As you say, theyll just throw Elenwen under the bus and carry on exactly as they were before, or worse, jump straight into attacking the Empire again. Theres nothing that actually changes by bringing the not-a-secret secret.

[Rater202]

Its not actionable information though. As you say, theyll just throw Elenwen under the bus and carry on exactly as they were before, or worse, jump straight into attacking the Empire again. Theres nothing that actually changes by bringing the not-a-secret secret.

1: If they burn elewen, they also burn any operation Elewen was connected to.

2: "Objective proof that one of our allies is actively betraying us" is much more actionable than a basic suspicion. Kind of thing people back in the capital should know about. Kind of thing that takes president over what's basically a petty squabble.

3: It's also proof that Ulfric is being manipulated, which may make Ulfric take pause and reconsider his actions.

Play your cards right and bringing up that Dossier gets the Imperials and the Stormcloaks pointed at the Thalmor instead of each other, and opens up the possibility for a more proper peaceful resolution to the war in favor of screwing over the damn elves.

[factotum]

Mercer has basically just been skimming off the top for the last 25 years, and the plot basically catches up with "Later losers! I got all the money finally!".

But why did he need to do that? The plotline suggests that the Eyes of the Falmer alone would set anyone up for life--Mercer could easily have gone after them 25 years ago. (I'm not even going to try and figure out how he managed to steal the entire treasure of the Guild when the only way out is through a brightly lit room that's always occupied and up a ladder, or why he even bothered). I just don't know why the writers of the questline felt the need to insert this 25-year gap in there when everything would have made a whole lot more sense without it, or at least a much shorter one.

[veti]

I just don't know why the writers of the questline felt the need to insert this 25-year gap in there when everything would have made a whole lot more sense without it, or at least a much shorter one.

Yeah, a lot of the stupider problems with the Thieves questline disappear if you assume that every mention of "25 years" is simply a freakishly coordinated slip of the tongue, and what they really mean is "about six months".

It's another example of an unforced error. "25 years" adds nothing of value to the story, it doesn't help it fit in with the world or the lore or make it any easier to code or test... All it does is raise a lot of questions that the writer apparently never thought of. A simple search and replace, without changing anything else, would make the story about 50% more plausible at a stroke.

(As for the Eyes of the Falmer, what's the big deal? The one you get to keep is only worth 5k, which is nice to have but it's hardly retirement money.)