OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread

[Fanatic-Templar]

I am not sure what point you are making.

The Goblinoids (and by extention The Dark One) have Gobbotopia - as such they do not need to be given Gobbotopia.

You are mistaken because you conflate the god and the worshippers. The goblins have Gobbotopia. That's mortal politics. The Southern Gods have ultimate authority over everything that happens in the South. That's divine politics. The Dark One has nothing, hence this scheme with the Snarl. Gobbotopia is by divine accords in Southern God territory, which is pretty bad if those gods are hostile to that city's worshippers. The Dark One, not being bound by any accords, can of course fight the Twelve for control of that territory, but he would lose, and that would risk creating another Snarl. Or to use Peelee's arguments, is the Twelve Gods decide to sink Gobbotopia to the bottom of the ocean, what are the goblins going to do about it?

[Fanatic-Templar]

the gods need The Dark One to stop the Snarl, so from what I can tell, they all just need to deal with it.

You are mistaken. There are a tonne of gods quite happy with the 'destroy the world and save the souls' status quo.

[Peelee]

You are mistaken because you conflate the god and the worshippers. The goblins have Gobbotopia. That's mortal politics. The Southern Gods have ultimate authority over everything that happens in the South. That's divine politics. The Dark One has nothing, hence this scheme with the Snarl. Gobbotopia is by divine accords in Southern God territory, which is pretty bad if those gods are hostile to that city's worshippers. The Dark One, not being bound by any accords, can of course fight the Twelve for control of that territory, but he would lose, and that would risk creating another Snarl. Or to use Peelee's arguments, is the Twelve Gods decide to sink Gobbotopia to the bottom of the ocean, what are the goblins going to do about it?

The goblins couldn't do anything about it. The Dark One could take his ball and go home, though, which means the world is doomed and the cycle repeats and the other gods are decidedly unhappy with the Southern Pantheon for shooting themselves in the foot.

I have to note that Gobbotopia has stood for a year, and has yet to be sunk to the bottom of the ocean.

Oh, and that's also ignoring that the gods won't act on the Material Plane that way regardless, which is why they made Clerics.

[hroþila]

I'm not sure what you guys are arguing about. De iure and de facto ownership are different things, and even where right of conquest applies it is still customary to have clauses in peace treaties recognizing sovereignty over conquered territory or giving up claims on it. In that sense, they can absolutely "give" Azure City to the goblinoids. On the other hand, it doesn't matter that the goblinoids worship the Dark One in the South - they were already Dark One worshippers living in the South before they took Azure City.

[Fyraltari]

Thanh was. What do we know about the rest?
(Also, you're fast.)

And Thahn’s dead. If the others didn’t manage to join the resistance I doubt they’ll manage to find an atoll on the other side of the world soon enough to matter to the story.

[dancrilis]

You are mistaken because you conflate the god and the worshippers. The goblins have Gobbotopia. That's mortal politics. The Southern Gods have ultimate authority over everything that happens in the South. That's divine politics. The Dark One has nothing, hence this scheme with the Snarl. Gobbotopia is by divine accords in Southern God territory, which is pretty bad if those gods are hostile to that city's worshippers. The Dark One, not being bound by any accords, can of course fight the Twelve for control of that territory, but he would lose, and that would risk creating another Snarl. Or to use Peelee's arguments, is the Twelve Gods decide to sink Gobbotopia to the bottom of the ocean, what are the goblins going to do about it?

If the Southern Gods engage in such they would be breaking the divine agreements not merely with The Dark One (should he be entered into such agreements) but with the Northern and Western Pantheons (who presumedly would have ratified his inclusion).
Even without The Dark One being included there are a bunch of god rules to prevent direct intervention.

Also mortal belief is important in shaping the nature of gods - how many mortals currently believe that The Twelve Gods hold sway over Gobbotopia.

Seperately:

The Southern Gods have ultimate authority over everything that happens in the South.

Can you provide a clear source for this?

[Fyraltari]

Or to use Peelee's arguments, is the Twelve Gods decide to sink Gobbotopia to the bottom of the ocean, what are the goblins going to do about it?

Control Weather?
What? It’s on the standard Cleric spell list.

[Metastachydium]

And Thahn’s dead. If the others didn’t manage to join the resistance I doubt they’ll manage to find an atoll on the other side of the world soon enough to matter to the story.

I never said they will ever matter to the story (that would be silly, if you ask me). All I said was that we do not have much in the way of evidence for the statement that „[t]jere are only three SG members still alive” (although the continued survival of elements from the ”old guard” would undermine your point about justice having been done already, and the fact that some SG members may still not be accounted for would mean that this is entirely possible).

[Yarrun]

Also I'll let the ogre thing pass because yes, all ogres being dumb can be the order of things. The average intelligence of a species can just be low, not sure what point you were trying to make there.

Okay, for fun, let's just unpack this premise: all ogres being dumb can be the order of things.

Yes, you can write a universe where, for one reason or another, all ogres are sentient/sapient but 'dumb'. You could even put in an elaborate history for said ogres that explains why they're all 'dumb'. That's totally a thing you can do, and it could work in the context of the story.

Having established that, we still have to consider why someone would put 'dumb ogres' into their setting. If the reason is 'because I need big dumb monsters in the wild for the protagonists/PCs to fight', then why not replace them with a pack of tigers? If, for some reason, you need creatures that can wield weaponry and use advanced tactics, then why not paid human mercenaries or hordes of the undead or automated sentinel golems? To what end does having an entire category of people, people with their own lives and experiences and subjective views of the world, who can never, ever be 'smart' add to a story? And they are people, mind you. Just because they're not human doesn't mean they stop being people, especially when most fans of fantasy have no issue with calling elves and dwarves people.

Perceived low intelligence (particularly perceived low intelligence in a category of people) is something often tied to prejudice in human history, and it served a key role in a lot of the cruelty caused by prejudice in the last century or so. To what end are you creating a world where the people who pushed those prejudices are validated? To use a specific example, perceived low intelligence among black people has been used to justify slavery in the past (and, in some areas, the present). To what end are you creating a world where there are justified reasons to enslave a sentient people?

[Peelee]

Control Weather?

Are you suggesting they make Gobbotopia England?

[Metastachydium]

If the Southern Gods engage in such they would be breaking the divine agreements not merely with The Dark One (should he be entered into such agreements) but with the Northern and Western Pantheons (who presumedly would have ratified his inclusion).
Even without The Dark One being included there are a bunch of god rules to prevent direct intervention.

Last time I checked, this inclusion thing was a fairly controversial idea for Team Yellow, whereas the Reds were somewhat skeptical about Big Purple's importance.

[Fanatic-Templar]

The goblins couldn't do anything about it. The Dark One could take his ball and go home, though, which means the world is doomed and the cycle repeats and all the other gods are decidedly unhappy with the Southern Pantheon for shooting themselves in the foot.

All the other gods are decidedly unhappy? The Western Pantheon already voted to destroy the world. The Northern Pantheon went 50-50 on it. The Southern Gods would be the one shooting down the alternative. By that reckoning, the majority of gods would be perfectly on board.

Oh, and that's also ignoring that the gods won't act on the Material Plane that way regardless, which is why they made Clerics.

Is that so? I thought that was an internal divine politics thing, not an interpantheon rule. Can you provide the comic?

If the Southern Gods engage in such they would be breaking the divine agreements not merely with The Dark One (should he be entered into such agreements) but with the Northern and Western Pantheons (who presumedly would have ratified his inclusion).

How so?

Can you provide a clear source for this?

I cannot. I'm surprised, honestly, I really thought I read that somewhere. Best I can find is the Adad/Thor domain boundary in the 950s. Despite the absence of a clear source, I'd still be willing to argue it to be likely true based on less concrete sources if you want to dispute the claim.

EDIT: It gets mentioned in Start of Darkness, if you're willing to take that passage as truth.

[Peelee]

You are mistaken. There are a tonne of gods quite happy with the 'destroy the world and save the souls' status quo.

Last time I checked, this inclusion thing was a fairly controversial idea for Team Yellow, whereas the Reds were somewhat skeptical about Big Purple's importance.

Those are fair points, I'll cop to being off there. Still, the Twelve haven't done anything yet, and per SOD likely couldn't do anything too outlandish even if they wanted to. And even then, as someone else said, there's the fact that The Dark One already had a foothold in the Southern Continent well before the BoAC.

ETA:

Is that so? I thought that was an internal divine politics thing, not an interpantheon rule. Can you provide the comic?

Start of Darkness, IIRC. Gonna see if I can get it on this compy to pinpoint the page.

[Fanatic-Templar]

Those are fair points, I'll cop to being off there. Still, the Twelve haven't done anything yet, and per SOD likely couldn't do anything too outlandish even if they wanted to. And even then, as someone else said, there's the fact that The Dark One already had a foothold in the Southern Continent well before the BoAC.

ETA:
Start of Darkness, IIRC. Gonna see if I can get it on this compy to pinpoint the page.

That's for things that interest those gods outside their geographical domains. That's why Gobbotopia's geographical location is so pertinent. If it were located within the Dark One's domain, the Twelve could only intervene through clerics. But the Dark One has no domains.

[Metastachydium]

Those are fair points, I'll cop to being off there. Still, the Twelve haven't done anything yet, and per SOD likely couldn't do anything too outlandish even if they wanted to. And even then, as someone else said, there's the fact that The Dark One already had a foothold in the Southern Continent well before the BoAC.

Yeah, the Twelwe are weird. I mean, they didn't do much that we know of against the army steamrolling their worshippers, but meanwhile they had the time to to shoo off a couple of Yellows trying to help their people win.

[dancrilis]

Last time I checked, this inclusion thing was a fairly controversial idea for Team Yellow, whereas the Reds were somewhat skeptical about Big Purple's importance.

I am not sure the point you are making.

If the negotiations go well it will presumedly be up to Thor to get them signed off - if that sign off happens then it doesn't matter if a few gods don't like it (unless they are willing to go to war over it) nor does it matter if one panteon doesn't like it (again terms and conditions apply).

But without any sign off The Twelve Gods still can't act against Gobbotopia without breaking some rules (in the same way that the Western Panteon cannot sink an island of followers of the Southern Gods).

How so?

Essentially the gods have rules that are designed to prevent them interfering with the world - as such sinking a part of that would distrupt things the world over and I am assuming that the rules prevent that (even if more then half of the Southern Gods were onboard which I would be dubious about).

I cannot. I'm surprised, honestly, I really thought I read that somewhere. Best I can find is the Adad/Thor domain boundary in the 950s. Despite the absence of a clear source, I'd still be willing to argue it to be likely true based on less concrete sources if you want to dispute the claim.

EDIT: It gets mentioned in Start of Darkness, if you're willing to take that passage as truth.

I am assuming that you mean the passage with the crayons - if so that is specifically Redcloak's narration rather then things that certainly happened.

[Peelee]

That's for things that interest those gods outside their geographical domains. That's why Gobbotopia's geographical location is so pertinent. If it were located within the Dark One's domain, the Twelve could only intervene through clerics. But the Dark One has no domains.

You're absolutely right. Even then they are vague (I suspect deliberately so); for example, Dragon only says the have dominion to guide their people, and the flashiest display we've ever seen has been the Twelve zapping Miko, which the author explained as the CEO personally coming to your cubicle to fire you because you messed up that badly. Regardless, though, I totally read more into that than there was, I'll admit.

But you've also hit the nail on the head; The Dark One has no domain. One could read that as "he has no authority anywhere, because geographical authority has to be granted," or one could read that as "he has authority everywhere, because geographical authority has to be restricted." I read it as the latter, and I'm guessing you read it as the former.

Yeah, the Twelwe are weird. I mean, they didn't do much that we know of against the army steamrolling their worshippers, but meanwhile they had the time to to shoo off a couple of Yellows trying to help their people win.

The gods are weird in general, I think.

ETA:

I am assuming that you mean the passage with the crayons - if so that is specifically Redcloak's narration rather then things that certainly happened.

I am, and it is unreliable narration, but he's also relating information he got from his god, who presumably was informed how the other gods work after some time. Because without that, it would be complete conjecture and no reason to think he would spout that off to begin with. For most crayon things information, I assume the info is roughly 90-95% correct, with that 5-10% just having huge implications.

[Windscion]

Yeah, the Twelve are weird. I mean, they didn't do much that we know of against the army steamrolling their worshippers, but meanwhile they had the time to to shoo off a couple of Yellows trying to help their people win.

You seem to be under the impression that the Twelve serve their worshippers? They do not. Also, being billions of years old, they take a longer view? And Team Yellow acting in the Twelve's sphere is a Bad Precedent.

[Metastachydium]

I am not sure the point you are making.

You said the Northern and Western Pantheons would presumably be on board with Big Purple getting an official membership card. The strip I referred to establishes that some northern gods would rather die than give ”one damn inch” to Bog Purple, while the Reds simply dismiss the whole idea of Big Purple being the soultion to most of their problems as a tall tale told by gods they don't trust.

You seem to be under the impression that the Twelve serve their worshippers? They do not. Also, being billions of years old, they take a longer view? And Team Yellow acting in the Twelve's sphere is a Bad Precedent.

The Twelwe have use for the Azurites, since they get Belief, Worship, Dedication and Souls from them (also, Hinjo is their paladin). They have no use for the goblinoids, since those folks worship someone else. They could have given a one-time special permission for Team Yellow to make themselves useful, maybe with a dire warning that they won't be quite as lenient under different circumstances.

The gods are weird in general, I think.

Fair enough.

[dancrilis]

You said the Northern and Western Pantheons would presumably be on board with Big Purple getting an official membership card. The strip I referred to establishes that some northern gods would rather die than give ”one damn inch” to Bog Purple, while the Reds simply dismiss the whole idea of Big Purple being the soultion to most of their problems as a tall tale told by gods they don't trust.

No I did not.

I said:

If the Southern Gods engage in such they would be breaking the divine agreements not merely with The Dark One (should he be entered into such agreements) but with the Northern and Western Pantheons (who presumedly would have ratified his inclusion).

To rephrase:
If the agreement is ratified and the Southern Gods are not happy then the ratification would presumedly be done by the Northern and Western Panteons.

That doesn't make any claims that the agreement would be ratified.

[understatement]

Or to use Peelee's arguments, is the Twelve Gods decide to sink Gobbotopia to the bottom of the ocean, what are the goblins going to do about it?

I don't think the gods can directly intervene on the Material Plane -- else they would've stopped the hobgoblins from conquering Azure City in the first place. That's why there's clerics and paladins and such.

[Fanatic-Templar]

Essentially the gods have rules that are designed to prevent them interfering with the world - as such sinking a part of that would distrupt things the world over and I am assuming that the rules prevent that (even if more then half of the Southern Gods were onboard which I would be dubious about).

Can you provide a source? We've seen Thor interfere with the world directly, the thunderclap over Cliffport comes to mind, as does the storm on the airship.

I am assuming that you mean the passage with the crayons - if so that is specifically Redcloak's narration rather then things that certainly happened.

Yes, hence why I said "if you're willing to take that passage as truth". I'm skeptical of quite a few things in there.

You're absolutely right. Even then they are vague (I suspect deliberately so); for example, Dragon only says the have dominion to guide their people, and the flashiest display we've ever seen has been the Twelve zapping Miko, which the author explained as the CEO personally coming to your cubicle to fire you because you messed up that badly. Regardless, though, I totally read more into that than there was, I'll admit.

I think we're getting tripped up on verbs here. You're saying that the Twelve won't sink Gobbotopia, and I agree with you. But I'm saying that they could. And if you're Redcloak, are negotiating concessions from those gods, and have very little faith in those gods to value the lives of the goblinoid citizens of Gobbotopia, then you'd probably want it in writing that they won't.

And if you're the Twelve Gods, you don't want the Northern Pantheon giving away parts of your territory to other people. It's the Northern Pantheon making the concessions, why don't they give some of their territory?

I'm not making any predictions about what's actually going to happen to Gobbotopia/Azure City, I'm just trying to look at this negotiation from the perspective of the involved parties, and seeing an incoming problem. And obviously this problem can be solved in a manner of ways, like the other two pantheons agreeing to give as much territory as the southern ones do, for an obvious example, but it's still going to be a problem that needs solving.

As a reminder, the perdiction and argument I'm making here is that this negotiation won't go south from the intervention of Xykon, Roy or some other third party. I expect the deal to become a lot more difficult before anyone comes to an agreement.

But you've also hit the nail on the head; The Dark One has no domain. One could read that as "he has no authority anywhere, because geographical authority has to be granted," or one could read that as "he has authority everywhere, because geographical authority has to be restricted." I read it as the latter, and I'm guessing you read it as the former.

I'm more reading it as a political issue. Any god could intervene anywhere, but if they have disagreements that could create a god-killing snarl, so they agreed to give each other their own space where they're always right. The problem with the Dark One is that he's definitely a god, so he has to be allowed to do his god things, but all the gods would prefer that he do it somewhere else than on their territory.

EDIT: Gotta go for now, I'll have to catch up on this discussion later!

[Squire Doodad]

If I'm not mistaken, doesn't Gobbotopia include both Northern and Southern lands?
Azure City is in the South, meanwhile the Hobgoblins lived in an area right by Xykon's backup tower, which insofar as I am aware was in the Northern Lands (possibly in the southern area of them, but that's besides the point). Since Gobbotopia spans what is presumably a relatively narrow but still long stretch of land from formerly Azure City to the mountains, it has both Northern and Southern territories.

This might be completely irrelevant, and The Dark One is the one who would have that as his domain, but it would be a bit funny to have a "Central" pantheon pop up because of that.

[Dragonus45]

Perceived low intelligence (particularly perceived low intelligence in a category of people) is something often tied to prejudice in human history, and it served a key role in a lot of the cruelty caused by prejudice in the last century or so. To what end are you creating a world where the people who pushed those prejudices are validated? To use a specific example, perceived low intelligence among black people has been used to justify slavery in the past (and, in some areas, the present). To what end are you creating a world where there are justified reasons to enslave a sentient people?

To be clear, I can make a world where ogres are literally throws darts because it's a slow day at work dumb inbred mountain dwelling cannibals who terrorize entire nations and so on, and still not be saying slavery is a just action as a result of that low int. The very idea is abhorrent, and I'm not exactly sure why you think one would imply the other automatically. Are you implying that Ogres being dumb would be actual justification to enslave them?

[Metastachydium]

No I did not.

(…)

If the agreement is ratified and the Southern Gods are not happy then the ratification would presumedly be done by the Northern and Western Panteons.

That doesn't make any claims that the agreement would be ratified.

K. Thanks for the clarification.
(At any rate, that's one big if there. (Also, if the agreement is accepted by the divine community as a whole despite the complaints the Blues, that would mean the other two pantheons voted for it, so within (and strictly within) the bounds of this hypothetical scenario we have no need for that ”presumably”.))

If I'm not mistaken, doesn't Gobbotopia include both Northern and Southern lands?
Azure City is in the South, meanwhile the Hobgoblins lived in an area right by Xykon's backup tower, which insofar as I am aware was in the Northern Lands (possibly in the southern area of them, but that's besides the point). Since Gobbotopia spans what is presumably a relatively narrow but still long stretch of land from formerly Azure City to the mountains, it has both Northern and Southern territories.

This might be completely irrelevant, and The Dark One is the one who would have that as his domain, but it would be a bit funny to have a "Central" pantheon pop up because of that.

Let me help with that. Here's the map: map.
As for the shape and size, „seventeen nations (…) recognized [its] borders, stretching from here – in Gobbotopia City – through the fertile Blueriver Valley and back to the mountain forts where so many of [the hobgoblins'] wives and children still live”. Blueriver Valley is former Azurite land, in the South. As for the Hobgoblin City… If it's not the South, it's certainly close enough.

[dancrilis]

Can you provide a source? We've seen Thor interfere with the world directly, the thunderclap over Cliffport comes to mind, as does the storm on the airship.

Kindof.
Here (panel 23) Thor gets grief from Tiger for breaking the rules, specifically the rules he broke seem to be assisting Durkon while in Cliffport (i.e the North).
Seperately Thor cannot smash people down with a hammer, zap them with lightning, etc because there are a bunch of rules to prevent the gods kicking over castles (panels 3,4,5,6)

Now you could say that the first one only became an issue when he was considering it in the South - but he references that they were not happy he did it once at all.
The second one you could say the problem is that he would be interfereing with another Northern God - but then if any Southern God is opposed to another Southern God flattening a city it is a problem (even ignoring the possibility of a new snarl with The Dark One).

K. Thanks for the clarification.
(At any rate, that's one big if there. (Also, if the agreement is accepted by the divine community as a whole despite the complaints the Blues, that would mean the other two pantheons voted for it, so within (and strictly within) the bounds of this hypothetical scenario we have no need for that ”presumably”.))

Depends on if there is another way to ratify an agreement i.e North says 'Yes', South says 'No', West say 'This is between the two of ye I don't care - decide between yourselves I will accept it', there might be rules that have it ratified via elemental lords or somesuch in such an odd occurance - so decided to go with 'presumably' for an abundance of caution (I could have went with 'almost certainly' or the like also).

[Peelee]

I think we're getting tripped up on verbs here. You're saying that the Twelve won't sink Gobbotopia, and I agree with you. But I'm saying that they could. And if you're Redcloak, are negotiating concessions from those gods, and have very little faith in those gods to value the lives of the goblinoid citizens of Gobbotopia, then you'd probably want it in writing that they won't.

And if you're the Twelve Gods, you don't want the Northern Pantheon giving away parts of your territory to other people. It's the Northern Pantheon making the concessions, why don't they give some of their territory?

I'm not making any predictions about what's actually going to happen to Gobbotopia/Azure City, I'm just trying to look at this negotiation from the perspective of the involved parties, and seeing an incoming problem. And obviously this problem can be solved in a manner of ways, like the other two pantheons agreeing to give as much territory as the southern ones do, for an obvious example, but it's still going to be a problem that needs solving.

As a reminder, the perdiction and argument I'm making here is that this negotiation won't go south from the intervention of Xykon, Roy or some other third party. I expect the deal to become a lot more difficult before anyone comes to an agreement.



I'm more reading it as a political issue. Any god could intervene anywhere, but if they have disagreements that could create a god-killing snarl, so they agreed to give each other their own space where they're always right. The problem with the Dark One is that he's definitely a god, so he has to be allowed to do his god things, but all the gods would prefer that he do it somewhere else than on their territory.

Ah, the joy of English. I do agree that the gods could act, in that they have the capability to do so, but I do not think they could act, in that they have the agency/authority to do so. All examples of direct godly intervention on the Material Plane, even within their respective areas, have been remarkably mild. Thor didn't blow up the Mechane, he merely created a storm - one of the worst storms they'd seen, but still a mere storm. Tiamat took zero action towards Vaarsuvius when they were in the desert. Thrym did nothing above informing his clerics that he wanted the airship stopped. These gods have had enormous targets in their own spheres of influence, targets they explicitly harbored resentment towards, and took very little direct action, if any. Even Thor's storm, the most direct divine intervention we've seen, was due to his being the god of storms.

Sure, it's all ultimately bound by politics, but I don't think that is a terribly important line of distinction.

Also, an ideal solution as far as divine territory goes would be to have TDO be the new Eastern god and raise a new Eastern continent, but I sincerely doubt that segregation will play a role in how everything resolves. At least, I hope that will not be the case.

You could also replace "Eastern" with "maybe the world in the rift", but I have the same problem with that.

[dancrilis]

Also, an ideal solution as far as divine territory goes would be to have TDO be the new Eastern god and raise a new Eastern continent

Are we sure there isn't already an Eastern continent?

[Peelee]

Are we sure there isn't already an Eastern continent?

There hasn't been an Eastern continent mentioned, and no continent would make it easier to accept no pantheon without questioning it, like Minrah admitted.

[The MunchKING]

Control Weather?
What? It’s on the standard Cleric spell list.

That's assuming it's a rain-based flood type sinking. Does Control Weather work on Tsunamis? If you REALLY want to flood it though, you erode the land under it, so it just goes SPLOOSH into the sea and there's not a lot Control Weather can do about it. :D

I don't think the gods can directly intervene on the Material Plane -- else they would've stopped the hobgoblins from conquering Azure City in the first place. That's why there's clerics and paladins and such.

I think they CAN, they just aren't supposed to mess with other gods' clerics (or maybe that's "interfering in Divine Politics") and they are not supposed to go into the other pantheons' turf at all. But on their own turf and in their own Domain, they are allowed to mess with the Material Plane until someone stops them within their rules.


I think it's more that this is a game to them, and it's less fun and interesting when you cheat all the time. So assuming direct control of large scale mortal events probably got boring after 2 or 3 easy wins, AND would have to balanced enough that it doesn't tick off the other Gods enough that they come and thwart you over it. Because that could lead to Snarls.