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2021-02-12, 08:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
Re: OOTS #1225 - The Discussion Thread
Nah, man, not even close. Not close at all.
Don't bother dreading over it. You just can't fathom what it'll be anyways.
And the funny thing is, you think you know what being tired is like. Hahahahahahahahahahahahashahahahahahahahahahaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaAttention LotR fans
Spoiler: LotRThe scouring of the Shire never happened. That's right. After reading books I, II, and III, I stopped reading when the One Ring was thrown into Mount Doom. The story ends there. Nothing worthwhile happened afterwards. Middle-Earth was saved.
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2021-02-12, 08:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2012
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- Colorado
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Re: OOTS #1225 - The Discussion Thread
There are social scientists who argue that we should encourage people to have children because it makes them better adults. People tend to start thinking longer term about society.
The distinction between fun and joy made clear. Watching your child sleep is about as much fun as watching paint dry. But the joy that wells up inside you, and the love? Ah. That's a different thing entirely.
I would advise people to trade fun for joy.This ... is my signature finishing move!
"It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady
According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
http://easydamus.com/character.html
I am a Ranger Archetype: Gleaming Warden (thx to Ninja Prawn)
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2021-02-12, 09:12 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
Re: OOTS #1225 - The Discussion Thread
That sounds like a terrible idea. Have these social scientists not heard of abusive parents? If people don't want kids, let them not have kids. Heinlein's overarching point in Starship Troopers is terrible, but I do agree with this:
Originally Posted by Heinlein, Starship Troopers
Originally Posted by Terry Pratchett, Thief of Time
Grey WolfLast edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2021-02-12 at 09:15 AM.
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
Deep in the corners of your mind
Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2021-02-12, 10:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
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- Seoul
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Re: OOTS #1225 - The Discussion Thread
And this is why I fear I'll never be a good enough dad.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
Extended sig here.
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2021-02-12, 11:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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- Beverly, MA, USA
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Re: OOTS #1225 - The Discussion Thread
Forcing people who don't want kids to have kids is one thing; encouraging people to have children by making the experience easier is something altogether different. I was looking at a series of charts yesterday that showed that roughly half of (American) adults (excluding those who said their family was "still growing") have fewer children than they want to. Granted, having one child rather than two is not the same thing as having no children rather than one, but many of the same reasons apply in both cases.
It's tough to talk too much about this without risking a brush with the no-politics rule, but speaking generally, it would be nice if society found a way to lower the financial costs associated with being a parent. I'm not too concerned that doing so would lead to a surge in abusive parents; it's much more likely that it would lead to more numerous, stabler, and happier families. There are downsides, too, but I'm not sure I can talk about them without getting too close to bending the no-politics rule.Last edited by Emanick; 2021-02-12 at 11:56 AM.
Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends
Currently playing a level 20 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel and a level 9 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.
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2021-02-12, 12:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
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Re: OOTS #1225 - The Discussion Thread
Not gonna lie, I'm a bit put off by all this talk about how you aren't truly an adult (or even a good citizen with full moral standing) unless you have kids.
Last edited by hroțila; 2021-02-12 at 12:03 PM.
ungelic is us
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2021-02-12, 12:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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- Beverly, MA, USA
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Re: OOTS #1225 - The Discussion Thread
Not only do you need to have kids to be an adult, you also need to have worked in at least seven different jobs, fought in a war, and walked uphill to school both ways. Also, you need to have been born before 1970.
Lets face it: None of us will ever be real adults, no matter what we do.Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends
Currently playing a level 20 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel and a level 9 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.
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2021-02-12, 12:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: OOTS #1225 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by Fyraltari; 2021-02-12 at 12:13 PM.
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2021-02-12, 12:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2007
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- Beverly, MA, USA
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Re: OOTS #1225 - The Discussion Thread
Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends
Currently playing a level 20 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel and a level 9 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.
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2021-02-12, 12:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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Re: OOTS #1225 - The Discussion Thread
Besides the dartboard height, nothing seems to be little person sized. The short arm could just be an odd viewing angle.
Does seem to be a druid based on the plants. A couple hanging plants could be anyone but the number and locations are beyond anything normal for decorative purposes. Also The Giant has previously liked using house plants with druids rather than full blown indoor jungles.
Location seems to be some sort of bunker with survival and work accommodations. 1 person since there's no privacy.
No idea if he's stirring a magical concoction or dinner. Both are easily possible in a comic book world.
EDIT: Skimmed thread and found parent and child comments. I suppose that's possible with the above too and it still fits all of the above. Having the little person's accommodations off camera could be intentional subversion and it could explain privacy issues too.Last edited by ericgrau; 2021-02-12 at 12:48 PM.
So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
My 3.5e Rules Cheat Sheets: Normal, With Consolidated Skill System
TOGC's 3.5e Spell/etc Cards: rpgnow / drivethru rpg
Utilities: Magic Item Shop Generator (Req. MS Excel), Balanced Low Magic Item System
Printable Cardstock Dungeon Tiles and other terrain stuff (100 MB)
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2021-02-12, 12:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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- Birmingham, AL
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2021-02-12, 01:00 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
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- Oregon, USA
Re: OOTS #1225 - The Discussion Thread
On one hand, it's hard for me to accept that I'm supposed to be an adult solely because I managed to live this long. On the other, from time to time I do worry about the general state of the world for my niblings*; is that supposed to count?
* I'm sure this is supposed to be a combination of "sibling" and how "niece" and "nephew" both start with "n"; but come on, English, why do you mock me so?FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2021-02-12, 01:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
Re: OOTS #1225 - The Discussion Thread
I don't fear that (well, parent), I depend on it. I will not be the one to call myself "good enough" and proceed to rest on my laurels. I can get away with that anywhere else, but when it comes to my child, I intend to continue to improve my parenting till the day I die.
No-one has said either of those things?
The first might be in reference to my comment, and that was clearly not universal, but applying strictly to myself. Find your own damn way of growing up. Heck I even said that foisting kids on others will not work. The second is an utter misreading of Heinlein, whose point is that you can't force people to be moral, no matter what.
GWLast edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2021-02-12 at 01:07 PM.
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
Deep in the corners of your mind
Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2021-02-12, 01:57 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2017
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- US
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Re: OOTS #1225 - The Discussion Thread
I'd argue this goes for being responsible for another person, period. Well, maybe not on the societal level, but it does raise standards pretty consistently.
I mean, if you're doing something entirely for yourself, your efforts generally stop at the level of "good enough". If you do it for someone else, you have to perform to higher standards because you don't know what their "good enough" is, and you don't want to come up short.
Now extrapolate that from the scale of "one household chore" to "total dependency".
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2021-02-12, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2013
Re: OOTS #1225 - The Discussion Thread
Clear implication - in fact, I'm pretty sure it was said. Lets review:
"Having them [children] makes you a better adult" - to the extent where people are advocating forcing it, in order to improve other people. That is basically saying that you're not good enough at being an adult without having kids. Or not having full moral standing without kids.
Then your sole argument against doing that can be boiled down to "no, because some people either can't become proper adults, or won't become proper adults, and thus the kid will be in a bad situation." That's not arguing against the premise that people should have kids because it makes them better people [and thus they're not as good as they should be without having kids]. Completely ignoring that some people don't want to have kids, and we're no worse people, regardless if our reasons are "I would make a bad parent", "I don't want them", "I can't have them", "I don't want to pass on genetic problems" or whatever. Note that your statement has an implicit acceptance of childfree and childless are not proper adults, by saying that they would have to become proper adults. Heck, you approve of taking that choice away from people in order to "improve" them and force them to grow up - "I approve of the objective, but it could harm the baby".
Your response didn't say it, but also failed to challenge it at all, basically reinforcing the view.
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2021-02-12, 02:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
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- US
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Re: OOTS #1225 - The Discussion Thread
That seems like a grossly erroneous interpretation of the view posited. What I read is thus:
"People tend to mature if/when they have children."
"So, should more people have children?"
"No; it doesn't always work, and when it doesn't work, people get very hurt."
Nothing in there implied inadequacy if you don't (choose to) have children, nor implied that the only objection would be in regards to the child's health; rather, that was the most prominent of many possible objections, and more than enough to establish it as a Bad Idea. Why pound the rubble?
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2021-02-12, 03:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2015
Re: OOTS #1225 - The Discussion Thread
And that's, I think, a good display of the issues underlying that kind of saying.
Parenthood is being put up as such a monumental task, with impossible standards, that it makes the careful and reasonable cancel or delay any project of parenthood, while not likely having any impact on the careless who are to become the kind of parents the sentiment was meant to critique in the first place.
People have been parenting since the dawn of time, before the existence of any education or economic system. They certainly haven't all been /good/ parents, but I do feel that there's this mainstream discourse that needlessly discourages people from becoming parents. I mean, sure, there are some local exceptions, and I don't want to go into politics because I've already gotten a warning about expressing my thoughts about places not having paid parental leave or any kind of parental job protection. But other than for those places, I really don't see any reason that parenthood should be delayed forever further and further into one's life. Can't not think of Idiocracy's intro about this.
We had our first kid relatively young, by today's standards (not by previous generations'). Hadn't finished our studies yet, but it was planned, and we finished them with the baby without any significant problem. Not for everyone, though, I'll grant that. But waiting off until your whole life is set and you are 100% confident that you'll be a superparent before having your first kid, somewhere in your thirties at best? I don't think that's good for society. I don't think that's healthy.
"Perfect" shouldn't stand in the way of "good". "Perfect is the enemy of good", it is said. In my opinion, parenting is firstly a matter of will. It's not about having all the innate qualities and answers to all the problems. It's about the will to persevere and do what's best for your kids. As such, all this fear about being ready is a red herring. You can't prepare yourself to parenthood. You just have to want it.Attention LotR fans
Spoiler: LotRThe scouring of the Shire never happened. That's right. After reading books I, II, and III, I stopped reading when the One Ring was thrown into Mount Doom. The story ends there. Nothing worthwhile happened afterwards. Middle-Earth was saved.
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2021-02-12, 05:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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2021-02-12, 07:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2018
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2021-02-12, 10:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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- Texas
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Re: OOTS #1225 - The Discussion Thread
I attempted to extend adolescence deep into my 40's. All my wife had to say was "nice try." My mom is 90. She has me as a son. (And that's another data point for "life is not fair"). As she reminded me today during our phone call "parenting never ends."
But this time, she laughed, even though it hurts more to do that now. She's pretty awesome.Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2021-02-13, 09:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
Re: OOTS #1225 - The Discussion Thread
Another relevant quote concerning the widespread insecurities of becoming a parent: "'The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence."
Bad parents aren't holding back from becoming parents. These people shouldn't be an excuse for others not to become parents themselves.Attention LotR fans
Spoiler: LotRThe scouring of the Shire never happened. That's right. After reading books I, II, and III, I stopped reading when the One Ring was thrown into Mount Doom. The story ends there. Nothing worthwhile happened afterwards. Middle-Earth was saved.
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2021-02-13, 09:54 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
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2021-02-13, 11:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2012
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- Colorado
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Re: OOTS #1225 - The Discussion Thread
The handles on the wardrobes are also low. I think it's possible there's a short person about.
I'm close to retirement age - in fact, I'm double dipping, retired from Place A when they froze my pension at earned benefits and took a job at Place B. And I still refuse to grow up - I play video games and the like. But my body is definitely aging.
Encouraging parenting is different than mandating it. Ergo, the idea that it's not for everyone is included. Furthermore, I'm afraid some of the most abusive parents are quite likely to think they are the perfect people to parent, and will go ahead whether they are encouraged or not. The point is that parenting does change ones viewpoint in a way that might be viewed as beneficial for society as a whole.
My oldest is over 40. I still parent him. Even though he's in another country. Erma Bombeck wrote a piece about this once - about asking her mom when it gets easier, and eventually realizing (without being told directly) that it never does. The older they get, the more they are out of your control - and that's good - and the bigger mistakes they can make. And you still love them just as much, but now you have to watch them and not interfere.
The worry never ends. The wanting to make it better when they are hurt never ends. The ability to actually do something diminishes asymptotically toward zero.This ... is my signature finishing move!
"It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady
According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
http://easydamus.com/character.html
I am a Ranger Archetype: Gleaming Warden (thx to Ninja Prawn)
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2021-02-13, 11:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
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2021-02-13, 12:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
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- South France
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Re: OOTS #1225 - The Discussion Thread
as a parent/ veteran/ immigrant/ university graduate/ traveler, i can say that each of these personal life facets are not a requirement to be anything. though some definitely are sort of exclusive clubs, where if you are not a member of that club it is sort of difficult to understand certain aspects. just as certain aspects of being a vet will never quite be understood by non-vets, though another vet will identify immediately, the same can be said about parents/ non-parents. and as much as people may want to understand, they can only look in from the outside and imagine. but none of these clubs are a requirement to be a well rounded adult, but kind of shorthand to explain who we are and to identify fellow members and a way to connect.
It's "locksmith of LOVE!" not "LO!"
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2021-02-13, 12:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2020
Re: OOTS #1225 - The Discussion Thread
People tell that a lot, but it's not true. Far from it, in fact. I took some measurements, y'see. On my screen, O-Chul is 1.1 cm tall. The handles are 6 mm from the ground. If O-Chul is 6' tall or taller, the distance between the handles and the ground is roughly 3'2" or more uncomfortably high for a small character.
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2021-02-13, 12:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2020
Re: OOTS #1225 - The Discussion Thread
When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.
-C.S. Lewis, On Stories: and other essays on literature, 1966
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2021-02-13, 01:00 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
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2021-02-13, 01:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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- Texas
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Re: OOTS #1225 - The Discussion Thread
Cackled, I did.
Oh, man, there's a blast from the past. Erma's columns. Haven't seen one in years. (We stopped newspaper delivery a while back when the delivery system frequently ... didn't deliver with great frequency).
It never gets easier: yep. One of mine's 28 and one is 31 with a child. They've flown the nest and are out there doing their thing in the world. But we stay in touch and I am occasionally asked for advice. (that's nice). I stopped offering advice, except on request, at about the time each finished college.
"You know how to reach me if you'd like another viewpoint/opinion" That has worked out reasonably well.
My wife prefers to keep offering advice for free and unasked for. That's her groove. Sometimes well received, sometimes not. Parents are not required to be perfect, but I think it is required to keep working at it ... even at this time ...
Which brings us back to Eugene: And Sidgi. And Ian.
Different approaches.
Reminds me of the time I met Ralph Sampson in person. Korvin, it's not that you are so short, it's that Ralph is in fact 7' 2" tall.Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-02-13 at 01:07 PM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2021-02-13, 01:07 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2013
Re: OOTS #1225 - The Discussion Thread
Erma died years ago, so it would be kind of hard to find a new column. Wouldn't be surprised if they're collected on-line somewhere.