Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLII: The Dice Make Fools of Us All

[LansXero]

I don't disagree with their right to do something, but if people want to be offended and think that GW is acting in bad faith then that's a fair accusation to make.

GW is a supplier of plastic figurines. Have your figurines not been what had been advertised, defective, broken, etc? Because thats 'acting in bad faith'. They have never taken any commitment with fan creators or agreed to any responsabilities towards the fans. Thats on the fans and their made up expectations.

Every purchase you make is based on a certain level of trust in the other party to the transaction, if that counterparty starts acting in a way that puts a particular transaction, and, subsequently, the entire transactional history into question then its fair that people are irked at the situation.

Is GW some sort of crowdfund or support purveyor for animation artists? You pay GW (or a retailer who bought from GW) plastic miniatures. Thats it. Thats as far as your transactions, past and present, go. You may imagine or assume that with this you're "supporting", "reinforcing", "steering" or "rewarding", but none of those show on your receipt. You pay X dollars for Y models, thats all. No strings attached.

Calling being irked an "entitlement" is incorrect and tone deaf. Bad faith is a thing. And, yes, people can be judged "evil, stupid or greedy" based on their conduct, why would you think otherwise? I'm not saying that this situation rises to that level, but to throw such concepts out wholesale doesn't make sense.

Having a huge block of resin in the forehead of the colossal squig is bad faith; I pay for a model and the model comes messed up. No ring binding in products clearly shown to have it is bad faith, as the advertisement was misleading.

Being hurt because some third party had been using private property with no permission and is quitting is pure entitlement. Its scrub mentality; making all these imaginary rules and restrictions and obligations that nobody ever agreed to, then acting indignant when they're 'broken'.

[Fable Wright]

Is GW some sort of crowdfund or support purveyor for animation artists? You pay GW (or a retailer who bought from GW) plastic miniatures. Thats it. Thats as far as your transactions, past and present, go. You may imagine or assume that with this you're "supporting", "reinforcing", "steering" or "rewarding", but none of those show on your receipt. You pay X dollars for Y models, thats all. No strings attached.

I will say that you are being extremely dismissive of the value of the IP that GW has developed here.

Games Workshop does more than supply plastic figurines. It licenses the world that these figurines are from to a variety of other forms of media, including video games and novelizations. The reason your model is so much more expensive than the cheap chinese knockoff that has the same amount of resin in it subsidizes the work on associated properties. When I buy Warhammer over, say, Malifaux or WarmaHordes or whathaveyou, I am specifically paying for the advertising as well—my ability to get games, speak with fans of the intellectual property, and more.

You can't tell me that the intellectual property underpinning the model line isn't worth money when game studios pay large sums for the right to use the name, branding, and images from the series in their games. If they begin to take their intellectual property in a direction I do not like, I lose interest in the models and subsequent support. I quit Malifaux when they deprecated support for my favorite set of models. The models can still be bought, but I will no longer be able to play them in tournaments, and no future products will come out supporting that set of models.

Being hurt because some third party had been using private property with no permission and is quitting is pure entitlement. Its scrub mentality; making all these imaginary rules and restrictions and obligations that nobody ever agreed to, then acting indignant when they're 'broken'.

Have you ever heard the term 'statutory neglect?' It's a policy the British Empire held toward the American Colonies in the decades directly before the American War of Independence. The colonies were basically cut off and allowed to do their own thing with British intellectual property, calling themselves British, using king and crown iconography. This resulted in the colonies thriving and viewing themselves as loyal British citizens, importing what they needed from more or less Britain alone.

When statutory neglect ended, a very bloody war ensued. The colonists had in their heads a set of imaginary rules and restrictions and obligations that were never formally agreed to, and acted extraordinarily indignant when they were broken. Britain had technically maintained the legal right to levy taxes, to be sure, but it was an unspoken agreement that they wouldn't.

GW has ended its policy of statutory neglect. They always had the right to strike down fan creators. They chose not to exercise it for many years. This created an unspoken expectation, and the consequences are neither unforseeable nor do they absolve GW of responsibility for their policy shift. No one is arguing that GW doesn't have the legal right to do this; but neither does GW have a right to gratitude or repeated business.

[LansXero]

I will say that you are being extremely dismissive of the value of the IP that GW has developed here.

Not at all, which is why I support them taking measures to monopolize the monetization of said value.

Games Workshop does more than supply plastic figurines. It licenses the world that these figurines are from to a variety of other forms of media, including video games and novelizations.

And thats between them and the licensee. CA, Minotaur, Relic, etc. are the ones who are paying those licencing fees, so its them who should have an opinion.

When I buy Warhammer over, say, Malifaux or WarmaHordes or whathaveyou, I am specifically paying for the advertising as well—my ability to get games, speak with fans of the intellectual property, and more.

If you want to believe that, fine. Look, Im not an idiot, I know there are tons of intangible attached to things like aspirations, prestige, etc. that go beyond objective quality. The thing is, you're not guaranteed any of that with your transaction. All you are actually guaranteed is the item itself. All the other qualifiers are only of value tangentially and not subject to any sort of demand. And thats before we even get into the whole 'fan vs customer' thing again.

You can't tell me that the intellectual property underpinning the model line isn't worth money when game studios pay large sums for the right to use the name, branding, and images from the series in their games.

Fan Animators don't, thats been my point from the start. Fans, redditors, you, me, we dont shell out those large sums of money so we dont get a vote.

When statutory neglect ended, a very bloody war ensued. The colonists had in their heads a set of imaginary rules and restrictions and obligations that were never formally agreed to, and acted extraordinarily indignant when they were broken. Britain had technically maintained the legal right to levy taxes, to be sure, but it was an unspoken agreement that they wouldn't.

And if enough fans radicalize and boycott GW over the latest policies changes, they can strongarm GW into whatever they want, same with media outrage and cancel culture over real or perceived racism / sexism. It doesnt mean they are in the right though, its just rule of the mob.

This created an unspoken expectation, and the consequences are neither unforseeable nor do they absolve GW of responsibility for their policy shift. No one is arguing that GW doesn't have the legal right to do this; but neither does GW have a right to gratitude or repeated business.

Funny thing is, the later has always been that way. Once again, they owe you nothing and you dont owe them anything. Its a company, what is there to be grateful for? Repeated business is dependant on them putting stuff you want, no? Where does this weird notion of being thankful for taking your money in exchange for goods come from?

[Fable Wright]

Skipping around the beating-around-the-bush phase:

Funny thing is, the later has always been that way. Once again, they owe you nothing and you dont owe them anything. Its a company, what is there to be grateful for? Repeated business is dependant on them putting stuff you want, no? Where does this weird notion of being thankful for taking your money in exchange for goods come from?

Where does your weird notion that customers valuing something other than the direct product is 'scrub mentality' or 'entitlement' come from?

GW made a business decision. As a customer, I owe them nothing, and their decision made me believe that my money would be better spent on an IP that is more likely to create an accessible environment for shared culture to immerse myself in.

Why, then, do you denigrate me as a consumer for my reduced valuation of future transactions with GW?

[LansXero]

GW made a business decision. As a customer, I owe them nothing, and their decision made me believe that my money would be better spent on an IP that is more likely to create an accessible environment for shared culture to immerse myself in.

Why, then, do you denigrate me as a consumer for my reduced valuation of future transactions with GW?

You specifically? Depends. What I take issue with is people feeling righteous for enabling normal consumer behaviour. Dislike / disagree with a brand? Choose another. Same as with taste of soda or color of a shirt. But plenty of people are posting manifestos about their boycott stance and acting like this is such a huge deal. Crafting heartfelt goodbyes and citing their long history of support and how betrayed they are and how they are being forced to quit.

Thats what I mean with scrub mentality. That feeling of betrayal, of duplicity, of 'bad faith' as if there had ever been any sort of agreement on what GW should or would do, unspoken or otherwise. Had they made a promise then backed out, I'd be lighting my torch too. But the didn't, and from past precedent they've always been this way and are being consistent with their reputation going back decades. So where does the outrage, surprise and heartache come from? Its like a simp crying because their twitch idol got married.

[Fable Wright]

Thats what I mean with scrub mentality. That feeling of betrayal, of duplicity, of 'bad faith' as if there had ever been any sort of agreement on what GW should or would do, unspoken or otherwise. Had they made a promise then backed out, I'd be lighting my torch too. But the didn't, and from past precedent they've always been this way and are being consistent with their reputation going back decades. So where does the outrage, surprise and heartache come from? Its like a simp crying because their twitch idol got married.

Honestly? I was going to just stop buying and not say anything because yes, it's a normal part of doing business. Cheesegear then implied that the people 'dropping' GW were, categorically, players with expansive collections and have not bought new models in years. As someone in the 'relatively new and active consumer' demographic that he's previously and repeatedly mentioned GW wants to court to keep growth alive, I felt obliged to mention that GW is provably losing at least some customers in my demographic as a direct result of the decision.

Your attack on my anecdotal evidence felt like you had an expectation that I should keep buying because I was a former customer, which was confusing and a little insulting.

[Renegade Paladin]

Well, I'm certainly not going to buy any more Bullgryns (I only have three) now, and as I believe I mentioned a large chunk of my local, very actively buying new player base was pulled into the hobby by If the Emperor had a Text to Speech Device, and are rather upset about it, so it's more than just Fable.

[Cheesegear]

But then, so what? Its their product, and their reach to neuter if they so wish. Same as its your money to vote with, and if other people follow then GW will have to alter course.

Which is what people are doing. End of story.

GW has written a guideline that is ambiguously worded in what it covers. Their actions say that they target a creator's wallet. Let's be clear. GW is not trying to take money out of your wallet. They're only saying that from this point forwards, no more money can be put in your wallet. They're not trying to take down your content, they're not suing you (at least not right now). That isn't what's happening. What they are doing is sending out C&Ds based on their new guideline, which is almost every case is enough to get people to demonetise themselves. However, that's a death knell in a crapsack 2021 economy where everything you do needs to be monetised.

Those people who use GW products and IP to point to their Patreon and PayPal - and by extension YouTube - as their main source of income need to start thinking about their life choices.

Those people who use GW products and IP as advertisements for their main source of income, need to start altering their life choices. The train didn't stop. But the gravy is leaking. You might want to patch that.

The ambiguous wording in the 'guideline' leads people to believe that GW is being nice. GW is their friend. They wont go after [X], because [X] is too small. Okay, fine. But anyone who's been around for a while knows that an unspoken agreement, is not an agreement. Not in any way that matters. Which means that GW could pull the plug at any time of their choosing...And that's a risk that a lot of rational people, wont take. It's a standard business approach; You cast a very, very, very wide net. But the net has holes. Yeah, some fish will get through. But those fish either don't matter, or they're fish you don't want...But one day, let's say you do want those fish? Well, you've got the net. Why change anything? Just cover the hole so the fish that keep getting through that hole, can't. There's still a lot of holes. But at least you've got even more fish with the same net.

They make stuff, you consume it, thats the entire sum of the relationship, liking things (aka being a fan) doesn't enable anyone to have a say or even an opinion on what private entities do with their property.

I agree. Unfortunately, parasocial relationships are real, and you need to give people the time to grieve.

...I started my grieving process at the start of 9th Ed., seeing the train of disingenuousness coming out of people with review copies of things, and watching the community 'sell out.' My...Annoyance, comes from people saying that GW isn't doing what they are doing, and have been doing for the last 18 months since just before 9th Ed. started.

We're seeing the same thing in the World of WarCraft sphere. And, no. I'm not talking about the...Lawsuit...Stuff... People were already quitting WoW in droves since Shadowlands came out. 'Blizzard is doing what they're doing.', 'No they aren't. Game still good. Don't quit.', 'Are you blind!?' ...The...Lawsuit...Stuff...Is simply the nail in fence that causes the fence to vibrate so hard that the people sitting on the fence, fall off. That means that shareholder meetings will be able to blame the...Lawsuit...Stuff...For people abandoning Blizzard, instead of their ****ty game.

Blizzard is doing what they're doing (to their game, for the last ~12 months). GW is doing what they're doing (to their IP, for the last ~18 months). It boggles my mind that people try and deny that those things are happening.

[LansXero]

Your attack on my anecdotal evidence felt like you had an expectation that I should keep buying because I was a former customer, which was confusing and a little insulting.

Yet totally unintended. Everybody is free to quit whenever they want, for any reason and for no reason at all. Doesn't make you any less of a fan, or any less of a gamer or whatever. I myself haven't bought anything (aside from store restock) in over a year, partly because Craftworlds are trash and also because finecrap. And well, WMH Scyrah minis are at clearance anywhere there is any stock left so plenty of stand ins that are better looking, better detailed and are more fun to paint.

My grievance was with proclamations that to be fair are not in this forum so its on me to have muddled things refering to other sites.

Well, I'm certainly not going to buy any more Bullgryns (I only have three) now, and as I believe I mentioned a large chunk of my local, very actively buying new player base was pulled into the hobby by If the Emperor had a Text to Speech Device, and are rather upset about it, so it's more than just Fable.

So, Hexfire: hit or miss? First 'special' release post-boycott and a very easy one to miss (like the Eldar one in 8th).

I guess it not running out in minutes would be a strong wake up call for GW, if it happens.

Then again, Octarius comes out in two weeks and I would take any bets on it selling out lightning fast. Boycott and all.

[Cheesegear]

Then again, Octarius comes out in two weeks and I would take any bets on it selling out lightning fast...

Everything GW makes in current year is manufactured to sell out.

[Lord Raziere]

I'm going to say that:

1. Before TTS, I previously had only a vague, passing interest in Warhammer 40k.
2. TTS being enjoyable in conjunction with the good stuff I'd heard about 8th edition and Tyranids being good got me to actually invest in the hobby for the first time ever. This was about 2017-ish.
3. Before this hostility, I had been interested in buying new Imperial Knights and kits to expand a versatile Tyranids force.
4. I have absolutely zero interest in doing so now.

I was a new player, roped in by content creators, with no preexisting army and who had a desire to expand my collection, who will no longer be doing so because of the decision. Definitively, TTS did cause me to spend four digits on overpriced, official GW miniatures. So I can say with confidence that TTS, at least, did bring people to the hobby, and that some people will leave because of it.

Yeah, before TTS, WH40k was not as interesting a universe to me.

maybe its because it showed me it can be looked in a light that provided context or happiness by looking at it in sillier more satirical light or something, I could look at it in a way that wasn't "pointless grimdark universe that may have some awesome ideas like the chainsword or Ciaphas Cain, but why personally do anything with it?" it at the very least, made me try an astropath in a rogue trader game, I had fun crushing people into pulp with my mind at least for the short time that lasted.

but now its like.....eh.....if GW is going take that stance? why should I even care anymore if anything could be targeted? Is All Guardsman Party even safe? is anything? and I'm still kind of regretting not seeing Astartes while I could. I was thinking about MAYBE getting a WH40k computer game at some point, maybe some strategy game or something, but now its like....no, why give them money and reward them for taking away what made me more interested in WH40k to begin with? and I've never been interested in the plastic miniature wargame in the slightest. I just....don't see any reason to care, because.....whether they can legally do this, doesn't really matter to me, because my enjoyment has been doused by it.

I'd hope that TTS can come back....but I'm not holding my breath. Goodnight TTS, you were not a good fan work....you were one of the best.

[LansXero]

Everything GW makes in current year is manufactured to sell out.

And then, Dominion :v.

[Forum Explorer]

Attitudes towards GW can be a lot more adversial then simply buy or not buy. For example, I might openly advocate against ever buying a codex and will point people towards alternative sources of rules.

So when people are displeased with something GW does, these sort of 'annoucement posts' are just a little bit more than just voting with your wallet. You are basically negatively advertising and encouraging people to not buy anymore GW products. I mean, in this thread alone, it seems that GW has lost two customers.

[Brookshw]

GW is a supplier of plastic figurines. Have your figurines not been what had been advertised, defective, broken, etc? Because thats 'acting in bad faith'. They have never taken any commitment with fan creators or agreed to any responsabilities towards the fans. Thats on the fans and their made up expectations.

Well, not necessarily. Though it's generally agreed that bad faith is difficult to pin down, the definition is fairly broad and can be understood as the incentive and factors presented that lead someone to enter into a transaction; this definition can work for us here. The transactions that GW is seeking to entice go beyond selling figures and includes getting a consumer to accept/purchase a whole plethora of other actions designed to make GW money: sale of video games and other software, books, painting products, marketing/marketing hype, community, etc. As to the last two items on the list, yes, they are getting consumers to accept the presentation of these things in furtherance of developing good will to drive sales. Good wills a real thing, its written into contracts and litigated over.

I'm sure you've heard of the concept of unjust enrichment in contract law, but if not then here's the basic idea. If someone does something to your benefit, you are aware of their actions, and you take no action to let them know you do not want them to perform whatever action they're engaging in, then you are liable to them for the benefit you received. For example, someone starts painting your house without you asking them to, you sit back, watch them do it without saying anything to them, and, when they're finished and come up to you to ask for payment, then you do actually owe them payment. Alternatively, if you told them not to paint the house and they did it anyway, well, that's on them and you don't owe them a dime.

Here, GW knew that "content creators" were developing good will for them through developing communities and interest in GW's products and services, and performing an advertising and marketing function. They knew, and they sat back and let it happen, and accepted the benefits it would bring. Heck, the worst thing that happened recently was that they offered some creators jobs. Seems pretty consistent with letting someone paint your house without any objection as per the above example. Some content creators, if they could demonstrate the benefit, may actually have a valid claim to bring against GW. But that's not going to happen, we know it, and instead they made money off their Patreon instead of GW having to pay them directly. More importantly, GW knew that was happening and wasn't stopping it.

So, now your average Joe Consumer, seeing GW about-face, seemingly refusing to acknowledge that the creators are due something for the benefit they bestowed on GW, knowing that their purchases of GW's good and services was predicated in part upon the development of good will that the content creators generated, have every reason to think that they were incentivized to enter into transactions with GW based on the perceived nature of the company and its relation with the community, and that it had until recently allowed content creators to receive compensation for the benefit GW may otherwise have owed those creators. This is bad faith of GW's part. You cannot accept the benefits but refuse to pay your due.

GW made two mistakes, they shouldn't have let content creators go for so long without making the change in policy, and they could have been much better in their messaging about the change. Consider when Jack Daniels sent out a cease and desist letter. There was no major blow back, JD fans weren't howling on forums, the whole thing was considered very commendable.

Of course GW also sold a bunch of gift cards with an 'extra 10%' added on and then immediately jacked up their prices so that the 'extra' wasn't actually the benefit that it appeared to be. Same as that Storm of Chaos thing they did, get a bunch of people excited so they can increase sales, saying that its a grand campaign and your game results matter,...and then ignoring them. This isn't exactly a company with clean hands.

Mind you, I think GW actually made the right call here, but if they wanted to do it they should have done it sooner or at least been better in their messaging.

[Dragonus45]

Attitudes towards GW can be a lot more adversial then simply buy or not buy. For example, I might openly advocate against ever buying a codex and will point people towards alternative sources of rules.

So when people are displeased with something GW does, these sort of 'annoucement posts' are just a little bit more than just voting with your wallet. You are basically negatively advertising and encouraging people to not buy anymore GW products. I mean, in this thread alone, it seems that GW has lost two customers.

Yea, buy/not buy is an overly simple false binary of options. I despise GW as a company and have since back around the End Times ended. I have still bought the better part of a sisters army, from my FLGS who I like to support regardless. I've also bought big into Conquest and am trying to convince a few local people I know to give WarmaHordes a shot again too. If nothing else I hope this will be a chance to get a lot of newer people in the hobby who only know the suffering of tolerating GW's rampant anti consumerism and awful balance a chance to see how big the hobby is outside of them.

[JNAProductions]

Thousand Sons.

They look neat. But can they melee effectively? I'm a melee person at heart, so I'd never field a force that couldn't mix it up all closelike, though obviously that's not TSons' forte.

I'm debating about picking up the book. Was kinda hoping Battlescribe would update sooner rather than later, so I could poke at least the stats over before committing.

[Cheesegear]

New Emperor's Champion doesn't look right... Fortunately, GW helped me out, and posted a comparison photo with the old Champion.

It's the large, blank, flat chest piece.

The old model has his Terminator Honours on a chain. It's very reserved, without looking boring.

New model looks surprisingly boring.

[LansXero]

Boycott going strong, Hexfire sold out so fast that GW is moving to made-to-order (like Indomitus) for Octarius and all box set releases going forward. Delivery time sucks (6-9 months wait) but might be better for some than a flat NO or having to go to scalpers.

[Forum Explorer]

Boycott going strong, Hexfire sold out so fast that GW is moving to made-to-order (like Indomitus) for Octarius and all box set releases going forward. Delivery time sucks (6-9 months wait) but might be better for some than a flat NO or having to go to scalpers.

What boycott? Have you had people come to you and inform you that they weren't going to buy any GW products?

[Cheesegear]

What boycott?

...People who are disenfranchised about non-first party content being demonitised, decided to boycott GW. As predicted, that part of the market doesn't make up as big - or as relevant - a market as it thinks it does.

'I brought people to the hobby!' ...Did you? Did you really? I'd wager that the vast majority of people who watch Warhammer-related content are either:

a) Already in the hobby, hence why they watch the content. The hobby is why they watch the content. The content doesn't drive the hobby.
b) Already voting with their wallet by watching free content. Someone who's incentive to watch free content, is the fact that it's free, isn't going to go out and buy a few-hundred dollarydoo box.

Finally, boycotts are meaningless because GW makes limited copies. As long as there's no product on the shelf, GW wins.

It doesn't matter if 1000 people boycott a product if the aim is actually to only sell 100 limited copies to 200 aquatic mammals people. And even better, GW doesn't actually care if a scalper buys six copies to box-break later, and five 'real gamers' miss out. It doesn't matter. Scalpers are actually good for the corporation doing the selling, because at least scalpers are guaranteed customers no matter what.

'We sold out and yet the aquatic mammals people want more!' looks real good on an investor report.

[LansXero]

Finally, boycotts are meaningless because GW makes limited copies. As long as there's no product on the shelf, GW wins.

'We sold out and yet the aquatic mammals people want more!' looks real good on an investor report.

Wonder if many people, or any at all, will jump on the 'Octarius but you get it Q1 2022' train. Can't blame scalpers if you choose to not wait.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...order-promise/

[Cheesegear]

Wonder if many people, or any at all, will jump on the 'Octarius but you get it Q1 2022' train. Can't blame scalpers if you choose to not wait.

I personally know several people who looking to grab multiple copies of the box. Because Krieg. Whether they actually did or not, I don't know.
I also know several people with existing full Krieg armies they bought from the East who are laughing at those people. If you want Krieg models, don't buy Octarius.

It's real weird that Octarius is a box with...The new edition of Kill Team, Imperial Guard, and Orks.

...But don't worry. If you didn't get that, there's a new Black Templars box coming soon.

What are you talking about!? How does promoting a Black Templars box fix the fact that I can't play Kill Team!?

[Avaris]

...People who are disenfranchised about non-first party content being demonitised, decided to boycott GW. As predicted, that part of the market doesn't make up as big - or as relevant - a market as it thinks it does.

'I brought people to the hobby!' ...Did you? Did you really? I'd wager that the vast majority of people who watch Warhammer-related content are either:

a) Already in the hobby, hence why they watch the content. The hobby is why they watch the content. The content doesn't drive the hobby.
b) Already voting with their wallet by watching free content. Someone who's incentive to watch free content, is the fact that it's free, isn't going to go out and buy a few-hundred dollarydoo box.

Finally, boycotts are meaningless because GW makes limited copies. As long as there's no product on the shelf, GW wins.

It doesn't matter if 1000 people boycott a product if the aim is actually to only sell 100 limited copies to 200 aquatic mammals people. And even better, GW doesn't actually care if a scalper buys six copies to box-break later, and five 'real gamers' miss out. It doesn't matter. Scalpers are actually good for the corporation doing the selling, because at least scalpers are guaranteed customers no matter what.

'We sold out and yet the aquatic mammals people want more!' looks real good on an investor report.

…did you miss the bit where GW is now experimenting with ‘limited’ products being only time limited, rather than quantity limited (like I’ve been saying they should do for years)?

The announcement of this new approach directly undercuts the scalper business model of ‘get all copies of a limited release and sell to those who miss out’. There will still be a niche, for selling to people who only want a single piece of a box, but it’ll be interesting to see how demand works once it isn’t ‘hammer F5 or miss out’.

And you’re right that GW doesn’t want unsold product on the shelves, but this approach demonstrates that they probably aren’t intentionally shorting production to achieve the ‘we sold out and there is still demand’ story. It’s an issue of production capacity: they can’t just flick a switch and make more instantly. The barrier so far has been that, once a thing is off production, fitting it in alongside everything else is likely a difficult ask. My guess is that the Cursed City experience gave them the incentive to try and find a solution (rather than Hexfire as Lans said: getting to a position to promise this takes time internally, and I didn’t think Hexfire was so massively in demand?).

There is of course the truly limited, ‘only 1000 copies’ special edition type releases, but I think there is much less demand for these? Also, whether people are willing to wait months for a product.

What are you talking about!? How does promoting a Black Templars box fix the fact that I can't play Kill Team!?

I very much took that as a ‘we’re trying to use this model for all releases, and here is a hint at the next one’ rather than ‘here is something else you can have instead’. It’s a teaser, not a directly related product.

[LansXero]

The announcement of this new approach directly undercuts the scalper business model of ‘get all copies of a limited release and sell to those who miss out’. There will still be a niche,

Once again, ETA on delivery is as far as March next year, so there is more than a niche for people who'd like it now rather than in 7 months after paying for it.

rather than Hexfire as Lans said: getting to a position to promise this takes time internally, and I didn’t think Hexfire was so massively in demand?

We got allocated 2 boxes, 1 EN 1 SP. Non-stockists got zilch. So I was mostly being facetious, something like this is obviously going to take a while to set up; they probably underprinted Hexfire (not an issue given how underwhelming it is) to make room for it. Just wanted to poke fun at the 'boycott'.

I very much took that as a ‘we’re trying to use this model for all releases, and here is a hint at the next one’ rather than ‘here is something else you can have instead’. It’s a teaser, not a directly related product.

Its awful. its Kickstarter's model, by a multi-million record profit company instead of struggling developers, while also saving on KS fees.

[Cheesegear]

The announcement of this new approach directly undercuts the scalper business model of ‘get all copies of a limited release and sell to those who miss out’.

It indirectly undercuts scalpers. Yes. You will get your product eventually? When? When will I get my product? Three months? Six? It's a COVID-riddled hellworld with shipping and packaging on the fritz every other week. Nobody in Australia is getting mail orders from GW because the warehouses are closed. Stores aren't getting things shipped to them, and you can only buy what the store has on hand. ...Scalpers can ship, though. Scalpers have everything you want...

Everything these days, is totally unreliable. Get it first, get it fast...Or wait. Wait how long? ...How large of an aquatic mammal are you?
Did the reviews come out for Unit [X], and it's going to be broken strong? ...Oh. It's a shame you wont get to play with your toys for four months, and the tournament you want to play in (because you're in a place where people follow the rules) is three weeks from now. Sucks to be you.

There will still be a niche, for selling to people...

...Who want their product quickly.

but this approach demonstrates that they probably aren’t intentionally shorting production to achieve the ‘we sold out and there is still demand’ story.

Made-to-Order is exactly what that is.

You short the initial run to boost for your investors, and then you make-to-order the rest for guaranteed sales and zero lost profit. You end up selling every single copy you make, and you don't ever make what you can't sell. It's exactly how [insert crowdfunded project] works. It's pure profit because you never - ever - create unsold product.

In 2021, how many Firstborn Marine boxes are sitting on shelves in stores, in warehouses...Just collecting dust forever?

It’s an issue of production capacity: they can’t just flick a switch and make more instantly.

You're right. They should make-to-order indefinitely, forever, on every product. Industrialised 3D printing is already here. I can take four .stls from HeroForge, send it to a place half an hour away, and have 12 copies of my model ready to pickup on Friday (today is Tuesday, welcome to upside-down-land-in-the-future), for fractions of the cost of any 12 GW models you care to list. They'll look better than what GW makes, they'll be made out of resin, and they'll be cheap as dirt.

and I didn’t think Hexfire was so massively in demand?

Thousand Sons aren't looking too terrible. And all's Grey Knights have to do in 9th is 'Basically Be Space Marines that are Good in Melee', and boom, Hexfire is in demand.

[Avaris]

They'll look better than what GW makes, they'll be made out of resin, and they'll be cheap as dirt.

I’ll agree with cheaper, and look better is a matter of taste (though I highly doubt many people will agree with you that Heroforge, or indeed most 3DP models, look better than GW. Comparable, maybe?), but do you really think resin is better than GW plastic? As that seems to be what you’re saying?

[Wraith]

New Emperor's Champion doesn't look right... Fortunately, GW helped me out, and posted a comparison photo with the old Champion.

It's the large, blank, flat chest piece.

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I get why it's a blank chestplate - it's artificer armour with parts dating back to the Crusade, so it's supposed to be a Mark 2 or Mark 3 chestplate. That's fine, it's appropriate... *If* you're complete nerd like me and have memorized that sort of thing from 2-dozen novels and 20 years' worth of codices. It definitely needs a crux, or a more prominent/more decorated heraldry shield, or something just to fill the space.

Then again, they probably deliberate wanted to minimise the amount of "Black Templar" iconography in order to make it easier to sell to non-BT players. Scratch off the emblem on the pauldron (assuming it's not a separate part entirely, I haven't seen the sprue yet) and it's pretty much a blank slate onto which you can stick your Blood Angels or Ultramarines bits.

[Blackhawk748]

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I get why it's a blank chestplate - it's artificer armour with parts dating back to the Crusade, so it's supposed to be a Mark 2 or Mark 3 chestplate. That's fine, it's appropriate... *If* you're complete nerd like me and have memorized that sort of thing from 2-dozen novels and 20 years' worth of codices. It definitely needs a crux, or a more prominent/more decorated heraldry shield, or something just to fill the space.

Then again, they probably deliberate wanted to minimise the amount of "Black Templar" iconography in order to make it easier to sell to non-BT players. Scratch off the emblem on the pauldron (assuming it's not a separate part entirely, I haven't seen the sprue yet) and it's pretty much a blank slate onto which you can stick your Blood Angels or Ultramarines bits.

That doesn't stop them from slapping on some Terminator honors or a purity seal to make it look less empty though

[Cheesegear]

I get why it's a blank chestplate - it's artificer armour with parts dating back to the Crusade, so it's supposed to be a Mark 2 or Mark 3 chestplate. That's fine, it's appropriate... It definitely needs a crux, or a more prominent/more decorated heraldry shield, or something just to fill the space.

That's what I'm saying.

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The Champion's breastplate is bare. But it isn't. The chestplate doesn't have...I want to say...Negative space? If you had to ask me, I'd say the Honours were put there because the designer didn't want empty space.

Then again, they probably deliberate wanted to minimise the amount of "Black Templar" iconography

Teminator Honours (as above) is not Black Templar iconography. The current Firstborn Champion has very little - if any - iconography. I'll see if I can find one in my box of badness. I might've sold it when I started using Sigismund for the model? I've definitely been using Sigismund as my Emperor's Champion for quite some time. Maybe I never even bought an Emperor's Champion? My God, I have so much ****.

and it's pretty much a blank slate onto which you can stick your Blood Angels or Ultramarines bits.

The first thing I thought of was a Primaris Lieutenant, and that bothers me.

[Grim Portent]

Oddly the thing that's annoying me about the Emperor's Champion is the new sword design, I preferred the previous more understated version.

The empty space on the chest is annoying, and the tabard and purity seals are too windswept for my taste, but it's the sword's hilt and crossguard that's bugging me when I look at it.

I'll still buy it, my BTs need their champion after all, but I do prefer the old one.