Wrath of the Righteous: The Video Game

[Kish]

Bracers. Stormlord's Resolve. Not Stormlord's Gauntlets.

[Rynjin]

Lightning Bolt (eww)

... Philistine .

[LibraryOgre]

I have to say, a combination of Ember and mounted Seelah makes some fights so anti-climatic.

Ember Slumbers a big bad. The rest of the party fighters cluster around a target. Seelah takes Covey's move action, then CdG's the big bad. If she doesn't auto-kill, the fact that she got a critical means almost EVERYONE ELSE IN THE PARTY then gets to smash the thing while it's down and helpless.

And while I hate Regill as a person, I've got him an axiomatic gnome hooked hammer than just smashes through all those demons.

[tonberrian]

... Philistine .

It's iconic, sure, but it's a godforsaken line! And of course every demon and their mother is immune to lightning damage by default, so early game lightning, up until level 5 or 6, where lightning bolt is in its prime, is useless. Also saves are just too dang high in this game, touch ac much better to hit.

[lord_khaine]

I have to say, a combination of Ember and mounted Seelah makes some fights so anti-climatic.

Ember Slumbers a big bad. The rest of the party fighters cluster around a target. Seelah takes Covey's move action, then CdG's the big bad. If she doesn't auto-kill, the fact that she got a critical means almost EVERYONE ELSE IN THE PARTY then gets to smash the thing while it's down and helpless.

And while I hate Regill as a person, I've got him an axiomatic gnome hooked hammer than just smashes through all those demons.

I will claim that if you can slumber someone they are not a meaningful big bad xD
But yeah. The utility ember brings are absurd. She is the one member i have the hardest time doing without.
Protective luck. And Evil Eye. Are also immense combat support abilities.

With regards to Regils Axomatic hooked hammer. Its slightly bugged. So it does the bonus d6 damage for first hit on every hit. It then adds the 2d6 lawful damage on there because its coded as a seperate hit.
The result is 5d6 bonus damage per hit on a two-weapon fighter with full bab.

So yeah. If you dont like excel sheets and sort your m&m's by color? stay the heck clear of Regil.

[Calemyr]

While I respect disliking Regill, I do feel I should defend him to some degree.

Spoiler: Why I like the Hellknight.

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First, I should point out that he comes by his Lawful Evil alignment legitimately. The game doesn't care about intentions, only about actions, and Regill supports slavery (as long as it's done 'properly'), and is pragmatic to a fault: he has no problem sacrificing anyone - anyone - if it means improving the odds of ending the Worldwound. This means that if the enemy is looking to take prisoners, he'll kill the wounded (but not dying) to do keep them from getting what they want. That said, I've never seen an evil character that is nearly so... genuine.

Despite being evil and having seemingly zero personal inclinations towards good (finding such inclinations to be laughably inefficient at best and farcically suicidal at worst), on the side of good. He reveres Iomede (even though she's LG). Yes, she's part of the Godclaw that he worships, but he still openly values her opinion. He is openly pleased if you take the Angel path, claiming that your angelic nature is already a significant win against the demons. Of course, he also praises a Lich, saying that corpses are a resource that makes sense to exploit. If he's convinced the Commander's the best chance for the crusade, he'll sacrifice everything he has (even his life if need be) to make sure the Commander has the Hellknights on their side, without any reservation.

And it's not an act. None of the classic evil motivations are at play. He doesn't enjoy bloodshed, and he doesn't expect nor desire any form of gain for his actions. Any advancement he makes is only desirable if it advances the crusades, so despite his rank he still serves as a field officer (by his own desire). Heck, Arueshalae outright says during a camping conversation that Regill is the only member of the party (does this include Ember?) that does not harbor any lust for her, ironically making the LE anti-demon zealot the only person she actually feels comfortable around. Of course, Regill takes this revelation as a personal insult, as the only feeling a demon should feel in his presence is FEAR, damn it!

As for actual usefulness, I assumed he was really bad, but that was because I'd misinterpreted the Maximum Dexterity Bonus rule. I thought that was a general rule not a specific one. As in, if you had 20 Dex and put on full plate, you only get one point of AC from your Dex. Which is true. Then equip a bow, and you only get 1 point of Dex bonus to your attack with that bow. This is false. I don't know if this means I've always been wrong or they just didn't implement their rules like that for a video game, but this means you can still have a Dex fighter in adamantine full-plate. Kinda MAD and feat heavy, but it is still perfectly viable. He's a very dangerous combatant as well an intriguing take on an evil companion.

[tyckspoon]

As for actual usefulness, I assumed he was really bad, but that was because I'd misinterpreted the Maximum Dexterity Bonus rule. I thought that was a general rule not a specific one. As in, if you had 20 Dex and put on full plate, you only get one point of AC from your Dex. Which is true. Then equip a bow, and you only get 1 point of Dex bonus to your attack with that bow. This is false. I don't know if this means I've always been wrong or they just didn't implement their rules like that for a video game, but this means you can still have a Dex fighter in adamantine full-plate. Kinda MAD and feat heavy, but it is still perfectly viable. He's a very dangerous combatant as well an intriguing take on an evil companion.

Yeah, that's how that works in the paper books too - max dex bonus from armor only affects AC bonus. There's a separate trait 'armor check penalty' that modifies Dex-based skills, but nothing that penalizes/limits attack bonuses.

[Sloanzilla]

Additionally, a fighter/hellknight gets a whole bunch of abilities that reduce the dex penalty on armor.

[LibraryOgre]

While I respect disliking Regill, I do feel I should defend him to some degree.

Regill is a great character, don't get me wrong.

But I also REALLY hate how OwlCats is interpreting Lawful here.

[lord_khaine]

All the same. While i generally think Owlcat misunderstand the idea of lawful.
Then i do think Regil is one of the better representations.

But regarding another companion.

Spoiler: Spoiler level - Massive

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Am i the only one who stopped using Camilla alltogether after learning she were more evil than some of the demons i had been killing?

[DeTess]

But regarding another companion.

Spoiler: Spoiler level - Massive

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Am i the only one who stopped using Camilla alltogether after learning she were more evil than some of the demons i had been killing?

Spoiler: same spoilers

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If by 'stop using' you mean 'kill her/hand her over to the guard', then no, you're not alone.

[Rynjin]

I never really needed the confirmation. She's incredibly sus from moment one, so I just quietly shuffled her out of the party when I had enough people to do so.

[lord_khaine]

Spoiler

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I did just as much mean "park her at the sideline" the moment i had enough for a full party.
When eventually killing her i think she were just level 6.

But yeah on the second playthrough the amount of hints are staggering.
Like just for a start how every time you find her its besides a mutilated corpse.

I had expected her to be evil.
Not that she were a psychotic serial killer.

[Anteros]

Spoiler

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They really should have been a little more ambiguous about her character. I normally keep evil companions around in hopes of redeeming them, but she needs to be put down hard. She's unrepentantly evil, and even if you tell her to stop her killings she'll openly talk about not intending to stop.

[Calemyr]

Spoiler: Character in Question

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She's definitely the second most frustrating character in my list (Wenduag beats her only because of how insanely finicky her redemption arc can be, but at least she has one).

She's extremely powerful, with a build that does a lot of things very well. However... good gods does she not do a good job hiding her alignment, screaming about blood and sacrifices during combat.

I tried to spare her on my Angel run, because the theme was redemption, but there's nothing redeeming about her. Her character arc just keeps getting worse and worse and worse, and every attempt to mitigate her carnage only makes the end result worse... And then I read up on her. She has no happy ending (she either tries to kill you or abandons you because it's the people she likes she needs to kill most) and she apparently completely derails the campaign before it even begins (the corpse she's found standing over? A major plot character from the Pen&Paper adventure path). When I then discovered I screwed up Wenduag's arc (finicky, as I said), I had to go back to the start of Chapter 3. She did not survive the chapter this time.

[lord_khaine]

Spoiler: Still character spoiler

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I could have lived with her being unrepentantly evil.
But the serial killer stuff kinda gets me a bit. One thing if she did evil for personal gain.
Another if she just does it because she gets off from it.

Honestly i newer even considered her worthy of redemption.
In part because there didnt seem to be a genuine desire for it. And i think her victims deserved justice.

Though curiously. She seems like the only person able to hide her nature from Ember.
When even Demon Lords or the Architech herself has failed in concealing stuff from her.

Still. Interesting way to divert the game from the pnp adventure.
Who was the plot important corpse?

[Calemyr]

Spoiler: Still character spoiler

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I could have lived with her being unrepentantly evil.
But the serial killer stuff kinda gets me a bit. One thing if she did evil for personal gain.
Another if she just does it because she gets off from it.

Honestly i newer even considered her worthy of redemption.
In part because there didnt seem to be a genuine desire for it. And i think her victims deserved justice.

Though curiously. She seems like the only person able to hide her nature from Ember.
When even Demon Lords or the Architech herself has failed in concealing stuff from her.

Still. Interesting way to divert the game from the pnp adventure.
Who was the plot important corpse?

Spoiler

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I don't know the details, I've never played the adventure path or even read it. But after you wake up in the crevice in the opening minutes, the corpse she's standing over (identified by Anevia as a librarian's aide) is supposed to be a major quest-giver and plot driver for the campaign.

Also, gotta agree with some evil characters don't need to be redeemed. Regill is one, in my mind. However they actually had me believing that Camillia could be saved and that simply isn't the case, and she's the kind of evil that simply cannot be allowed. Self-important jackasses and ruthless crusaders are acceptable, serial killers who blatantly lie to you and explicitly can only kill allies for their fun is not worth it regardless of any utility they provide.

[Sloanzilla]

Spoiler: More Spoilers- same topic

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She's kind of a deliberate setup too- the first character you receive with a high trickery stat AND- in many instances- the first character with healing. So you are more or less "forced" to take her through the first half of the act.

I did really like the writing in terms of Anevia introducing the issue to the PC in Act 3.

[LibraryOgre]

All the same. While i generally think Owlcat misunderstand the idea of lawful.
Then i do think Regil is one of the better representations.

Regill really is. He is the variety of Lawful Evil that is utterly practical and unforgiving. As he said, his first suspect is himself, and he interrogates that subject daily.

I ****ing hate him, but as a person, not as a character, if you take my meaning.

But regarding another companion.

Spoiler: Spoiler level - Massive

Show

Am i the only one who stopped using Camilla alltogether after learning she were more evil than some of the demons i had been killing?

Spoiler: Spoilers 3: Spoil Harder

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It was always kinda obvious to me, given her combat chatter. I haven't even GOTTEN that far, but it's a big blinking sign that says "I am a crazy person who likes to torture people". You could write off the Gwerm house as kinky, sure. You can't write off the rest of her.

[Sloanzilla]

Agree on Regill. I don't like him. I don't want to hang out with him. But he's a well designed lawful evil character.

[Eldonauran]

Spoiler: Spoilers 3: Spoil Harder

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It was always kinda obvious to me, given her combat chatter. I haven't even GOTTEN that far, but it's a big blinking sign that says "I am a crazy person who likes to torture people". You could write off the Gwerm house as kinky, sure. You can't write off the rest of her.

Spoiler

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It didn't even need to use her in combat. One glance at her character sheet and that amulet told me all I needed to know. You can get a lot of information about someone when enough of the negative space around them is colored in.

[LibraryOgre]

Spoiler

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It didn't even need to use her in combat. One glance at her character sheet and that amulet told me all I needed to know. You can get a lot of information about someone when enough of the negative space around them is colored in.

Spoiler

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What about her character sheet, specifically? I mean, obviously, "I am militant about hiding my alignment" is a red flag, but what else stood out to you?

[Eldonauran]

Spoiler

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What about her character sheet, specifically? I mean, obviously, "I am militant about hiding my alignment" is a red flag, but what else stood out to you?

Spoiler

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It was her hiding of her alignment, all by itself. The implications of someone hiding their alignment in the city where the adventure begins opens up a LOT of doors that simply scream 'danger, danger'. Even assuming the best, someone who hides their alignment is immediately suspicious unless you are in a society where such things are common and very few of them are GOOD ones. Finding her next to a dead body didn't help either.

[Anteros]

Spoiler

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I think from a RP perspective, I think your character doesn't really see alignment like that and doesn't know she's hiding it. He just knows she's odd and secretive. There's a little bit of dialogue about the amulet but nothing overt about it hiding alignment that I remember. I didn't want to use meta knowledge to banish someone from my party rather than seeing their story play out. She shows her true colors very quickly though. Although, you don't learn just how bad she really is until later.

Spoiler: More Spoilers- same topic

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She's kind of a deliberate setup too- the first character you receive with a high trickery stat AND- in many instances- the first character with healing. So you are more or less "forced" to take her through the first half of the act.

I did really like the writing in terms of Anevia introducing the issue to the PC in Act 3.

Spoiler: Anevia

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The Anevia bit annoyed me to the point where I almost ditched the quest. I thought I was in charge of the crusade? Why is this random underling who supposedly works for me rudely giving me secretive orders and refusing to explain herself? It made sense in hindsight, but if that situation happen in real life instead of a railroady video game I would have probably told them to explain themselves or get lost.

[Sloanzilla]

Spoiler: Anevia followup

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I dunno, I found it to be relatable. I have a boss who is, shall we say, a bit on the authoritarian side. If I say "hey, this friend of yours turned out to be a crook"- I'll be told to buzz off. I have to find ways to lead him to the situation so that he can make his own choice. Anevia basically had to try to get me into a position where I'd hopefully make the right choice. I've been there.

[lord_khaine]

Spoiler: Anevia

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Also Anevia is as such not a random underling. But the veteran leader of a elite unit.
That does carry a bit of weight as well. Especially when we on the other hand at most have a couple months experience of leading stuff.
Certainly enough to give her the benefit of doubt and then ask for an explanation later.

[Anteros]

Spoiler: Anevia

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Also Anevia is as such not a random underling. But the veteran leader of a elite unit.
That does carry a bit of weight as well. Especially when we on the other hand at most have a couple months experience of leading stuff.
Certainly enough to give her the benefit of doubt and then ask for an explanation later.

Tell y'all what. Go to your boss in real life and say "do this menial task that's technically my job but I'm not doing it, and no I won't tell you why, but you'd better go do it right now." Let me know how that goes for you.

Also, neither Anevia or Irabeth are anything even remotely approaching competent at their jobs. They're both colossal screw ups that require you to bail them out constantly. Now, that's not necessarily their fault since they're side characters in a fantasy wish-fulfillment story, but nothing about their constant need for rescue, reassurance, or fixing their failed plans screams that I should trust their judgement over my own.

[lord_khaine]

Tell y'all what. Go to your boss in real life and say "do this menial task that's technically my job but I'm not doing it, and no I won't tell you why, but you'd better go do it right now." Let me know how that goes for you.

Ya'know what? If i ever become -the- lead expert on some central area. And then end up with a boss who somehow gets promoted 4-5 steps up above his head.
Then if i think there is a relevant lesson in doing that task? then i WILL do so.

It can be your stuck in a garbage work culture. Thankfully im not.

Also, neither Anevia or Irabeth are anything even remotely approaching competent at their jobs. They're both colossal screw ups that require you to bail them out constantly. Now, that's not necessarily their fault since they're side characters in a fantasy wish-fulfillment story, but nothing about their constant need for rescue, reassurance, or fixing their failed plans screams that I should trust their judgement over my own.

Well besides Irabeth being there to bail us out the first time we get out over our head. And generally having the respect of her subordinates.
While with Anevia.

Spoiler: Spoiler level : Massive

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There is the bit about us having overlooked a psychotic serial killer, that she traced.
Or for that matter, the thing about since we dont know anything about the case ourself, then its as such we should not have a judgement to trust over Anivia's.

[Calemyr]

Spoiler: On This Issue

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Anevia was caught in a no-win scenario. A serial killer is picking off her men, and turns out to be not only a part of her boss's inner circle but also (for this very reason) a mythic empowered warrior who is conceivably on the high end of character level in the crusade. Killing her is potentially practically impossible for her and her men as long as she's drawing power from the Commander, and she has absolutely no idea how that walking death machine known as the Commander is going to react when told one of their sidekicks is doing some extracurriculars. Will they be dismissive? Pissed? At whom? Anevia desperately needed the Commander to discover the situation with as little bias as possible ahead of time, and then just follow the decision. She accepts the Commander's judgment regardless of whether they slaughter Camillia on sight or approve of the killings and spend the next however long helping her "vent her stress".

Speaking of which, did you know that, if you allow her to complete her ritual and are male, you can sleep with her in that cellar, then walk out and order Anevia to kill her? That's screwed up.

Utterly unrelated, but has anyone explored the romances of the game much?

Spoiler

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So far, I've only played through Arueshalae, Wenduag, and Galfrey. I've read up on Camillia and Daeran as well.

Annoyingly, I like Arueshalae's the most. I mean, it's just a simple and sweet story, and Arue herself is just an ungodly useful character (great stats, archery, AND a skill monkey). The part that galls me is that most of her character growth isn't related to the romance, so I find romancing her is something of a waste. Still, I did find it hilarious that she literally threw herself in prison for being too attracted to the Commander.

Wenduag is extremely frustrating if you want to redeem her. You have to do everything just right, and that includes indulging her darker nature more than I felt was healthy. Add in the fact that the meaningful bit of her redemption is only an extra sentence in an epilogue card, staying evil throughout the playable time. On the other hand, she can grow quite a lot through her romance and it's also quite amusing how Wenduag (who readily describes kissing as disgusting) can kiss the Commander in a panic while they're dying of poison and then beat herself up after the fact when she realizes that would have never actually worked.

Galfrey is pretty... meh. It was kinda cool having her as an ally for the final chapter, but she's not mechanically all that different from the sword&board paladin I've had since level 1 and she didn't contribute anything banter-wise. Still, I did think it was pretty cool that (at least in my playthrough) she quit the throne to hang with the Commander, which I didn't think was a possible outcome.

Camellia doesn't have any good outcomes, as far as I know. She is driven to kill the people she loves most of all, so any romance with her will only end with her either committing suicide by Commander or putting as much distance between the two to avoid the temptation to do something pointedly stupid.

Daeran supposedly CAN become good during a romance, but I'm not certain if it's an in-game alignment change like Arueshalae or an epilogue-only one like Wenduag. Next time I do a run (I'm thinking Aeon), he'll probably be it, because I find his commentary amusing and his situation narratively compelling. Like Regill, he uses evil as a tool, but (unlike the Hellknight) takes it to heart much more.

I just don't have time for Lann and Sosiel, however. I like the characters quite a bit, (especially dad-joking Lann) but don't feel their romance stories would add meaningfully to either of them.

Anyone else have an opinion?

[DeTess]

Spoiler: On goldenboy specifically

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You don't need to romance Daeran to redeem him, but it does make his redemption arc far sweeter. To see that snarky douche slowly open up to your character and allowing him to be vulnerable is quite an interesting arc in my opinion, which isn't quite as clear if you don't romance him.