Raging Loop

[Taffimai]

Doubling down on my vote for Illven.

You think she's lying about being the medic? I mean it's possible with so many people not posting (so the cc might still come), but for now I'm going to chalk it up to "fairly new player got a role and went wheeee then made iffy reads".

I want your thoughts on Zelphas and on Snow.

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Actually with this being a flipless game, counterclaiming as wolf would be an excellent idea, especially for such an important role.

So if there is a cc, I'd be in favour of letting them both live and seeing which one dies tonight, then killing the other tomorrow.

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...and fakeclaiming is also a good idea for wolves, especially for such an important role they might want to flush out before dying. I can see where you're coming from now.

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We just can't trust claims this early on. Still doesn't mean I want to risk it by killing Illven tbh.

[AvatarVecna]

You think she's lying about being the medic? I mean it's possible with so many people not posting (so the cc might still come), but for now I'm going to chalk it up to "fairly new player got a role and went wheeee then made iffy reads".

I want your thoughts on Zelphas and on Snow.

Actually since posting I realized that softing is pointless since town might not realize and wolves definitely would.

I'm actually Crow.

Illven is a member of scumteam who got a wagon on them, and tried to salvage it by fakeclaiming Crow, to provoke the specific post you're reading right now. Fakeclaiming monkey would be pointless (would get counterclaimed by one monkey, another wolf would need to second the fakeclaim, and regardless of which of the two monkeys/two fake monkeys gets lynched, Crow instantly knows which pair was telling the truth), fakeclaiming spider gives the baner an advantage when trying to find the poisoned wine, fakeclaiming seer is a good way to get the whole scumteam cracked open in just a couple scries, so seer is unlikely to counterclaim you and you've just gotta hope you catch them before they catch you (and you never know if you've caught them, only Crow knows that). Fakeclaiming Crow either gets the real Crow to out themselves to catch you (which is a good trade long-term for wolves), or Crow keeps quiet and you get to lead town down the primrose path for a couple days until Crow finally gets their act together and counterclaims (which risks the whole game if Crow dies before they realize counterclaiming is the correct move).

None of what I'm saying up there is news to wolves. If there's even one wolf thinking about setup, all of this is pretty obvious. This is just what wolves have to do the first time one is on the chopping block.

This is also why I found those posts interesting, btw. Taffimai possibly downplaying the size of Illven's wagon. Illven having two "three name" lists...and one name from each immediately shifted to make a counterwagon. Snowblaze showing TMI by speculating that it was maybe a fake claim with an incoming counterclaim.

Illven is definitely scumteam. If I was placing bets on which of the other three are wolf partners, I'd say Snow more than Ti, and Ti more than Taff. But Illven definitely needs to die.

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You think she's lying about being the medic? I mean it's possible with so many people not posting (so the cc might still come), but for now I'm going to chalk it up to "fairly new player got a role and went wheeee then made iffy reads".

I want your thoughts on Zelphas and on Snow.

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Actually with this being a flipless game, counterclaiming as wolf would be an excellent idea, especially for such an important role.

So if there is a cc, I'd be in favour of letting them both live and seeing which one dies tonight, then killing the other tomorrow.

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...and fakeclaiming is also a good idea for wolves, especially for such an important role they might want to flush out before dying. I can see where you're coming from now.

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We just can't trust claims this early on. Still doesn't mean I want to risk it by killing Illven tbh.

Taffimai has just moved up in the list for trying to get ahead of my counterclaim, and for suggesting the awful awful plan to let the wolves tell us which claimant is the real one.

For those of you reading: the towny answer to "how do we check the claims" is the seer, not the wolf kill.

[Taffimai]

inb4 Bladescape also claims Crow

[AvatarVecna]

Also like obviously I'm biased on this matter, so don't take my word for it, but think about how you'd play as wolf in this setup. If you're not being suspected atm, fakeclaiming anything is just making life worse for yourself for very little gain. Like here's what happens if I'm fakeclaiming:

D1 there's a solid chance I get lynched instead of Illven, and now there's people arguing that neither of us should be lynched. Great. If I didn't get lynched, I get scried N1 even if Illven also didn't get lynched, because I'm just inherently less trustworthy. If Illven is alive, she almost certainly gets baned over me for the same reason.

So, N1 Snake scries me, I come up scum. I spend a couple cycles leading town around pretending to be Crow. Maybe Illven is also giving Crow knowledge in which case I get caught as soon as a monkey dies. Then something like D4 (or when the first monkey dies, whichever comes first), Snake stands up, calls me out as a wolf, and uses my fake Crow info, their own scries, and possibly Illven's real Crow info (if alive) to spreadsheet solve the whole game.

And absolutely none of that needs to happen if I just...don't fake counterclaim D1 when nobody was suspecting me. If you think about it for even two seconds you realize it's an awful gambit where I get caught immediately regardless of how the lynch goes down, and it's possible that my getting caught ruins the game for the whole wolf team before D1 is even over.

EDIT: Actually since wolves don't know who died either, I get caught when a monkey dies even if Illven is dead unless I get extremely lucky guessing who the monkeys are.

[bladescape]

inb4 Bladescape also claims Crow

I'm also Crow.

Illven

[Taffimai]

Also like obviously I'm biased on this matter, so don't take my word for it, but think about how you'd play as wolf in this setup. If you're not being suspected atm, fakeclaiming anything is just making life worse for yourself for very little gain. Like here's what happens if I'm fakeclaiming:

D1 there's a solid chance I get lynched instead of Illven, and now there's people arguing that neither of us should be lynched. Great. If I didn't get lynched, I get scried N1 even if Illven also didn't get lynched, because I'm just inherently less trustworthy. If Illven is alive, she almost certainly gets baned over me for the same reason.

So, N1 Snake scries me, I come up scum. I spend a couple cycles leading town around pretending to be Crow. Maybe Illven is also giving Crow knowledge in which case I get caught as soon as a monkey dies. Then something like D4 (or when the first monkey dies, whichever comes first), Snake stands up, calls me out as a wolf, and uses my fake Crow info, their own scries, and possibly Illven's real Crow info (if alive) to spreadsheet solve the whole game.

And absolutely none of that needs to happen if I just...don't fake counterclaim D1 when nobody was suspecting me. If you think about it for even two seconds you realize it's an awful gambit where I get caught immediately regardless of how the lynch goes down, and it's possible that my getting caught ruins the game for the whole wolf team before D1 is even over.

EDIT: Actually since wolves don't know who died either, I get caught when a monkey dies even if Illven is dead unless I get extremely lucky guessing who the monkeys are.

If we go with your plan of killing Illven, then we won't find out whether you're town until you're NKed or Snake is ready to claim. Leaving both alive puts the wolves in a lose-lose position: either trade one for one, or leave the outed Crow alive, and sure the fake one can spin yarn for a while, but eventually this turns out in town's favour as you described.

[AvatarVecna]

If we go with your plan of killing Illven, then we won't find out whether you're town until you're NKed or Snake is ready to claim. Leaving both alive puts the wolves in a lose-lose position: either trade one for one, or leave the outed Crow alive, and sure the fake one can spin yarn for a while, but eventually this turns out in town's favour as you described.

You're ignoring my larger point: Illven claiming Crow makes sense regardless of her alignment, but me counterclaiming Crow makes like zero sense if I'm a wolf. We got an info-power to out themselves and we didn't even spend a wolf life to catch them...so why spend one after the fact? Especially since if I'm faking I'm guaranteed to get caught immediately? If I'm wolf, my options were staying out of it or fake-counterclaiming, and the latter is worse in almost every conceivable way. Fake-counterclaiming slightly increases the chance of Crow dying in exchange for guaranteeing that I die once the seer catches me. 100% chance of losing a wolf in exchange for less than 100% chance of getting Crow killed is an awful trade for wolves to make because they're inherently outnumbered. Even Crow isn't so valuable a target as to sacrifice a wolf who wasn't already on the chopping block.

[bladescape]

I mean.

I have crumpets.

They're tasty.

[Taffimai]

You're ignoring my larger point: Illven claiming Crow makes sense regardless of her alignment, but me counterclaiming Crow makes like zero sense if I'm a wolf. We got an info-power to out themselves and we didn't even spend a wolf life to catch them...so why spend one after the fact? Especially since if I'm faking I'm guaranteed to get caught immediately? If I'm wolf, my options were staying out of it or fake-counterclaiming, and the latter is worse in almost every conceivable way. Fake-counterclaiming slightly increases the chance of Crow dying in exchange for guaranteeing that I die once the seer catches me. 100% chance of losing a wolf in exchange for less than 100% chance of getting Crow killed is an awful trade for wolves to make because they're inherently outnumbered. Even Crow isn't so valuable a target as to sacrifice a wolf who wasn't already on the chopping block.

Wolves can't afford to have cleared town running around, and angeldodging is a pain. Trying to get the claimant killed is entirely defensible, especially by softing which you can later spin as "no it wasn't a cc their reads were just so bad I was sure they were lying".

I mean, if I had to lay down money I'd bet on you being town over Illven, but I can't get over how you're at the same time arguing we should let Snake sort it out and wanting to kill Illven with all fury. They inherently contradict eachother imo.

[AvatarVecna]

Wolves can't afford to have cleared town running around, and angeldodging is a pain. Trying to get the claimant killed is entirely defensible, especially by softing which you can later spin as "no it wasn't a cc their reads were just so bad I was sure they were lying".

I mean, if I had to lay down money I'd bet on you being town over Illven, but I can't get over how you're at the same time arguing we should let Snake sort it out and wanting to kill Illven with all fury. They inherently contradict eachother imo.

I don't want Snake to out themselves to catch one wolf. I'd rather just kill the person I know is a wolf. I'm just saying that your plan of using the wolf kill to figure out who the real claimant is, is 1) unlikely to work out in town's favor, and 2) only works if it's never said aloud. Saying it aloud is something town shouldn't do, and town!Taff should know not to do.

Wolves already know their fake claimant is caught. Regardless of who it is, regardless of who you think it is, seer is 100% going to know which of us is telling the truth by SoD2. Whether Snake outs themselves at that point to catch the faker is irrelevant - the fake is caught. "Getting away with being a fake Crow" is not something the wolves can do at this point. There is a 100% chance the fake Crow gets caught and killed in the days to come - when exactly that happens is irrelevant. That wolf is already caught and dead, they're just waiting for the rest of the game to catch up. They cannot lower the chances of themselves dying, they can only raise the chances of the real Crow dying.

To that end, lynching inside the two of us is, at absolute worst, a 50% chance of lynching the real Crow. You know what guarantees that the real Crow dies? If wolves kill the fake Crow (who was, if you recall, dead already regardless of what they do), and then town lynches the real Crow since the wolves would of course have tried to kill the "real Crow". The only way the real Crow doesn't get lynched D2 under your plan is if the seer (the only person who knows which Crow claimant is real) outs themselves D2.

Your plan of "let the wolves tell us who the real crow is" is a plan that only had a chance of working if it was never mentioned aloud. You saying it aloud guaranteed that it could only make things worse for the real Crow instead of better, and has decent odds of making things worse for Snake too.

EDIT: And I didn't say this, but obviously if Snake self-outs to save Crow D2, that means Spider has a tough choice to make N2 (assuming Spider wasn't a casualty D1/N1/D2, ofc). Getting both town info roles to be outed going into N2 is 100% the kind of thing worth spending a wolf life on.

[Snowblaze]

screams into the abyss

Fair warning: I am sleep-deprived and barely functioning so if I sound hopelessly incoherent, that's why.

I was going to write up a post about how lynching the real Crow would be kind of bad and we shouldn't risk killing within the Crow claimants, but... is it, though? Trying to think clearly.

Okay. We kill the real Crow. Snake scries the living Crow claimant, comes back wolf. We kill the fake Crow, one dead wolf. We're condemned to playing completely flipless, yes, but that was probably going to happen anyway. And Spider can protect Snake as long as they're alive.

How about this? We kill a Crow claimant (read: Ilven). Snake scries AV and claims if and only if AV is a wolf... that does kind of destroy town if Snake gets nightkilled and AV is a wolf, though, but is that the kind of risk that's worth taking? We really don't want Crow and Snake simultaneously outed...

the alternative is kill one claimant and leave the other alive until we get a dead Monkey, or even leave both alive until we get a dead Monkey.

I'm just not awake enough to properly process this. I'll turn it over and try and figure out the optimal play here. Thoughts appreciated, everyone.

[Taffimai]

I don't want Snake to out themselves to catch one wolf. I'd rather just kill the person I know is a wolf. I'm just saying that your plan of using the wolf kill to figure out who the real claimant is, is 1) unlikely to work out in town's favor, and 2) only works if it's never said aloud. Saying it aloud is something town shouldn't do, and town!Taff should know not to do.

Wolves already know their fake claimant is caught. Regardless of who it is, regardless of who you think it is, seer is 100% going to know which of us is telling the truth by SoD2. Whether Snake outs themselves at that point to catch the faker is irrelevant - the fake is caught. "Getting away with being a fake Crow" is not something the wolves can do at this point. There is a 100% chance the fake Crow gets caught and killed in the days to come - when exactly that happens is irrelevant. That wolf is already caught and dead, they're just waiting for the rest of the game to catch up. They cannot lower the chances of themselves dying, they can only raise the chances of the real Crow dying.

To that end, lynching inside the two of us is, at absolute worst, a 50% chance of lynching the real Crow. You know what guarantees that the real Crow dies? If wolves kill the fake Crow (who was, if you recall, dead already regardless of what they do), and then town lynches the real Crow since the wolves would of course have tried to kill the "real Crow". The only way the real Crow doesn't get lynched D2 under your plan is if the seer (the only person who knows which Crow claimant is real) outs themselves D2.

Your plan of "let the wolves tell us who the real crow is" is a plan that only had a chance of working if it was never mentioned aloud. You saying it aloud guaranteed that it could only make things worse for the real Crow instead of better, and has decent odds of making things worse for Snake too.

EDIT: And I didn't say this, but obviously if Snake self-outs to save Crow D2, that means Spider has a tough choice to make N2 (assuming Spider wasn't a casualty D1/N1/D2, ofc). Getting both town info roles to be outed going into N2 is 100% the kind of thing worth spending a wolf life on.

This is exactly the same, from town's pov, whether they kill the real one or the fake one. Both dead including guaranteed 1 wolf at the expenditure of one elimination and one NK, with the added risk that Snake speaks up to save the town Crow so two live verified PRs vs one dead wolf. You've also now given a reason for why you could be a wolf ccing. No offense, but if we kill Illven, I will not believe your information until Snake speaks up anyway, and I hope they won't do so until much later in the game.

You are right that tomorrow, the fake will be a dead wolf walking. Pushing for town to kill one of you now, thus potentially wasting two eliminations to catch our 1 wolf, is not a pro-town plan and denies us information the real one could give in the coming days. The only downside I see to leaving you both alive is that Badger can almost guaranteed join the wolf team - but that gives them tmi and might make it easier to flush them out as well.

Afaic you can both live until we know. Other people are free to vote differently.

[AvatarVecna]

This is exactly the same, from town's pov, whether they kill the real one or the fake one. Both dead including guaranteed 1 wolf at the expenditure of one elimination and one NK

That's my entire point. You're restating my entire ****ing point. My entire point is that your plan is bad because it literally can't ****ing work if you call attention to it. You cant announce "we will make decisions based on info wolves give us" before wolves have given you that information. The plan only works if you never bring it up until after-the-fact, and yet you brought it up anyway, when you should've known better.

You've also now given a reason for why you could be a wolf ccing.

I'm not the one who's been pushing for Snake to out themselves D2 to save me. I'm saying that's what would have to happen at this point for your "trust the info wolves give us" plan to work even a teeny tiny little bit. It's a terrible plan made worse by the fact you've laid it out for wolves to Game Theory into uselessness. I think Snake should keep quiet; if they scry me as Crow, no need to reveal themselves over that; if they scry me as Wolf, they can let me live a few days to spew or anti-spew while they collect more scries, and they can solve all this by D4 or whenever a monkey drops and reveals I'm the fake.

I'm just gonna keep voting the outed wolf. You can keep equivocating and both sides'ing and pushing your plan that only works if the seer outs themselves tomorrow all you like, it doesn't make your plan any less stupid.

[JeenLeen]

NOTE: I'm not fully read up on the thread. I read up to AV's counterclaim, then skimmed and saw at least bladescape also voted Illven. Since I have a work deadline, want to get my vote in and hopefully I'll have time to read before Day ends. Plus had some pre-claim thoughts on Illven I want to share.

First: Illven.
I can see some scenarios where trusting a counterclaim is iffy, but we do have a seer.

At Lady Serpentine.

Well first thing is instead of a wolf not wolf read, I think Armoina is a non monkey role. Whether town or wolf. I feel the radio silence so far is a new player panicking without a confirmed Mason buddy.

Hmmm

Wolf reads.

Maybe Bladescape, he did respond to a request for info about playstyles? I feel that's something town blade wouldn't do except to make a point or after game

After that Xi? She's doing the whole I don't fear death thing she did last game where she was a wolf.

Hmm. I don't want this to be my I accused ti of being a wolf till I'm right, but you seem a little overeager and expaliny

As for town.

Snowblaze, Jeenlean, persolus.


I've got to get going reasons later.

Can finally post on desktop and explain my townleads.

While from what I've been told, Snowblaze can be ruthless towards her partners. I don't see a benefit to rp's as a wolf. All it does is put the idea that snow is a wolf in our minds.


Jeenleen posts good reasons to start getting discussion going.




Persolous just seems like they're here and don't want to die. :P

I'm sorry, my pockets are full at the moment.

Illven's posts felt off to me this game. That could be a towny knowing they have a power role and feeling safe, knowing they could claim if needed to negate heat.

I'm the crow, if I had had enough time to spell it out, my previous posts would have started with black bird, but I only managed to get through black.

In addition, my character Princess Olivia was played as a Life cleric, and what is a life cleric but a fantasy medic. I healed so much hp, everyone kept bleeding.

It could also be a wolf planning/setting up a fakeclaim to draw out a power role. AV's logic about what role the wolves are most likely to fakeclaim makes sense (at least at a quick reading), so that Illven's claim is Crow is kinda a mark against her.

Persolus, Illven also felt pockety to me. I think this is mostly because I just really comprehended the concept of "pocketing" last game, and thus I'm a little oversensitive to it and biased to read it where it ain't this game.
You felt pocketed as well.
I know why I didn't vote her for the pocketing feeling: if she was a wolf, I didn't want her wagon so high that the other wolves would give up on her and/or bus her. At 3 votes, it seemed possible the other wolves would shuffle votes to get a competing wagon in a way we could analyze later. (Also, I still felt kinda okay with my BW vote and didn't trust my perception about pocketing.)

Why did you leave your vote on a joke/RNG target instead of moving it to Illven?

Speaking of which, I have a slight townlean on JeenLeen - this feels like their town game, from the limited sample size I have - and then also on Snowblaze on account of the immediate double voting on her. Which leaves me with weak wolf reads on Book Wombat and Xihirli on account of that feeling like wolves slipping up by being too fast to do the same thing as each other when a townie does something NAI that they think they can spin.

This also felt a little pockety to me, but not to the same degree Illven's stuff did. Not sure if that is a legitimate difference or just that the larger amount of text makes it easier for me to swallow.

[AvatarVecna]

Like seriously if you're town just step back for a second, breathe, and read your previous post.

This is exactly the same, from town's pov, whether they kill the real one or the fake one. Both dead including guaranteed 1 wolf at the expenditure of one elimination and one NK, with the added risk that Snake speaks up to save the town Crow so two live verified PRs vs one dead wolf. You've also now given a reason for why you could be a wolf ccing. No offense, but if we kill Illven, I will not believe your information until Snake speaks up anyway, and I hope they won't do so until much later in the game.

You are right that tomorrow, the fake will be a dead wolf walking. Pushing for town to kill one of you now, thus potentially wasting two eliminations to catch our 1 wolf, is not a pro-town plan and denies us information the real one could give in the coming days. The only downside I see to leaving you both alive is that Badger can almost guaranteed join the wolf team - but that gives them tmi and might make it easier to flush them out as well.

Afaic you can both live until we know. Other people are free to vote differently.

The first underlined section is where you're acknowledging and seeming to agree that Snake outing themselves immediately to save the real Crow is bad news.

The second is where you say "if we don't use my plan, I'm going to advocate people shouldn't listen to anything you say until Snake outs themselves to confirm you as the real Crow".

These two sentences don't agree with each other. You're either a wolf trying anything to avoid your scumbuddy getting lynched today, throwing whatever at the wall to see what sticks, or you're so tunneled at this point that you're not noticing how your own argument contradicts itself.

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TBH I probably need to take a step back too. Getting too steamed about all this. >.<

[Cazero]

Now that's an interesting development.
Voting for AV.

[Illven]

So your brilliant idea is day 1, post 1, hour 7, with 0 wolf experience I had the best possible fake role power to claim and start seeding?

Unless Vecna is going to insist that Olivia isn't a life cleric?

My concern is that the wolves (Vecna) might be likely to make a claim because of the no flip nature of the game. They'd be risking their life, to hope the snake jumps the gun and deprive us of both of our info roles.

[Cazero]

So your brilliant idea is day 1, post 1, hour 7, with 0 wolf experience I had the best possible fake role power to claim and start seeding?

The thing is, if you're a wolf, you got coaching.

[Illven]

The thing is, if you're a wolf, you got coaching.

Sure. But hour seven? We decided that I should build the basis for a fake claim?

[AvatarVecna]

The thing is, if you're a wolf, you got coaching.

And not just theoretical coaching. I got role PM on the 27th, but game didn't start until 30th. Assuming Valmark didn't prank wolves by accident by sending their PMs out way later, they had about three days to discuss things privately among themselves. The plan at its core is simple: if you're pushed as wolf and it's getting close to EoD, just fakeclaim Crow. Either Crow counterclaims you and wolves know where to find an info power (and have poisoned that well going forward unless the other info power outs themselves to confirm someone), or Crow doesn't counterclaim and you escape the lynch with the ability to lead town around for a couple days until Crow gets their **** together.

Seeding a fakeclaim before you need it is a good way to lend it some legitimacy...although personally I don't think the Olivia reference is a very good softclaim because I'm pretty sure I'm the only one here who knows the Olivia character, so Illven could've just made it up as support for this claim and nobody would really be sure? And even if people knew the character, that doesn't make the claim any harder to fake tbh.

[Persolus]

Persolus, Illven also felt pockety to me. I think this is mostly because I just really comprehended the concept of "pocketing" last game, and thus I'm a little oversensitive to it and biased to read it where it ain't this game.
You felt pocketed as well.
I know why I didn't vote her for the pocketing feeling: if she was a wolf, I didn't want her wagon so high that the other wolves would give up on her and/or bus her. At 3 votes, it seemed possible the other wolves would shuffle votes to get a competing wagon in a way we could analyze later. (Also, I still felt kinda okay with my BW vote and didn't trust my perception about pocketing.)

Why did you leave your vote on a joke/RNG target instead of moving it to Illven?

Mainly because I was waiting to see how Illven would react to the accusation (spoiler alert: by completely ignoring it), and also because i went to sleep before the whole claim thing.

@Bladescape what do you mean, you're "also crow?"

...the main thing I'm worried about here is that this is AV making the counterclaim. AV, who is the picture of the utmost confidence and passion about this sort of plan regardless of alignment.

Also I just woke up, so I will have a proper vote within a few hours.

[Illven]

Did wolves get wolf chat at the same time as roles sent?


Also I'm pretty sure bladescape is **** posting, like last game where they faked claimed executioner. Only this time with two claimants.

[AvatarVecna]

Did wolves get wolf chat at the same time as roles sent?

Every game I've run as narrator, and every game I've played as wolf, has involved a PM that looks something like "you lot are the wolf team, here is a link to your QT/discord chat". The only reason to assume otherwise is because it weakens your argument to acknowledge you had an extra ~72 hours to think about stuff.

[JeenLeen]

Willpower is low and code is running in the background, so I read.
Not sure how to take the debate between AV and Taffimai. Partially because I'm too distracted by RL to really think through each: it's hard to read through each train of thought considering if both are townies just disagreeing, AV is wolf, and if Taffimai is wolf, and trying to figure out which is more likely. Both stances sound plausible from a Town perspective, and I just don't have the time to wrap my head around it to figure out which is the better idea.
If AV is the real townie and Illven the wolf, then we get a massive benefit now. It's a gamble, but good payoff.
And, as AV pointed out, if AV is the wolf, she's outted once she misidentifies a Monkey or gets scried.

Looking at the posts AV and Illven made besides the claims, AV looks townier to me.

So your brilliant idea is day 1, post 1, hour 7, with 0 wolf experience I had the best possible fake role power to claim and start seeding?

Unless Vecna is going to insist that Olivia isn't a life cleric?

My concern is that the wolves (Vecna) might be likely to make a claim because of the no flip nature of the game. They'd be risking their life, to hope the snake jumps the gun and deprive us of both of our info roles.

It highly makes sense that the wolves would have the idea to seed fakeclaims early on.
I have no clue who Princess Olivia is or what she's from, but it sounds plausible as a seed to claim baner or see-death-flips: the power fits baning (healing magic), while the fluff fits Crow (life cleric -> medic).

I get that you totally could be a power role that got some heat, so you claim to avoid a bad mislynch D1. And it's just bad luck, bad circumstances, and a persuasive wolf!AV that is causing problems. That is in the realm of plausibility. But so is what AV proposed.

So, barring some reread of Taffimai's argument and realizing why it's a lot better than AV's, vote is staying on you.

As such, Zelphas - because I agree with Jeen that his opening gave me gut pings and I'd rather vote the person who actually did the suspicious thing than the person who may or may not be partnered with them.

Anyway, yeah. Reads. Err, vague townlean on Jeen I guess? (Also I am doing the RP thing for a reason, which does make sense for town!me. It's just... is it less effective to explain it, or am I just feeling cryptic? Let's go with a bit of both.)

Um. I'm guessing I don't get points for townreading PR claimants? I'll skim back through stuff and try and dredge something up.

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Oh, right, no-one else is actually voting Zelphas. The way Jeen posed their statement about who they were voting made me think someone was and I was actually starting a wagon.

...Jeen, can I interest you in voting Zelphas with me?

Forgot to answer this.
A hard "no" for D1 with the claimaint/fakeclaim thing going on. Plus, AV's suspicion of you as a scumbuddy with Illven... well, that doesn't make me super-persuaded to join the wagon you are pushing to save Illven. But as a D2 vote? That makes sense to me, at least as long as there's no seer claim saying we need to lynch AV and/or no strong reason to lynch someone as an ally of Illven.

[Illven]

Every game I've run as narrator, and every game I've played as wolf, has involved a PM that looks something like "you lot are the wolf team, here is a link to your QT/discord chat". The only reason to assume otherwise is because it weakens your argument to acknowledge you had an extra ~72 hours to think about stuff.

But you'd think I have realized that and not said that I only had 7 hours, instead of trying to trick experienced people that we didn't have 72 hours after we just had a discussion involving the delay of game start.

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It highly makes sense that the wolves would have the idea to seed fakeclaims early on.
I have no clue who Princess Olivia is or what she's from, but it sounds plausible as a seed to claim baner or see-death-flips: the power fits baning (healing magic), while the fluff fits Crow (life cleric -> medic).

I get that you totally could be a power role that got some heat, so you claim to avoid a bad mislynch D1. And it's just bad luck, bad circumstances, and a persuasive wolf!AV that is causing problems. That is in the realm of plausibility. But so is what AV proposed.

So, barring some reread of Taffimai's argument and realizing why it's a lot better than AV's, vote is staying on you.

Oh, Olivia is my life cleric from a game Vecna dm'ed on discord, A halloween intended one shot (ended up being a few weeks)

Sheet in question.

https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2708671

Wouldn't baning (No one can use powers on you) fit the fluff of banishment better then healing magic? Which admittedly is a spell offered to life clerics but its not something they specialize in.

[AvatarVecna]

Like seriously let's pretend we're in a world where I am a fake Crow. Put yourself in Illven's shoes.

You're getting wagoned, so you truthfully claim Crow right before bed and go to sleep. When you wake up, there is someone else also claiming to be Crow. Do you assume:

1) This person is obviously a lying wolf trying to get me lynched with a fake counterclaim.

2) This person is in fact a second Crow.

3) This person is a townie fake-counterclaiming Crow for some reason.

Of course it's gonna be the first one. Of course there's not two Crows. Of course a townie isn't fake counterclaiming. If you are Crow!Illven, there is not a world where I'm not a lying wolf trying to cause town problems. So what is this initial reaction?

My concern is that the wolves (Vecna) might be likely to make a claim because of the no flip nature of the game. They'd be risking their life, to hope the snake jumps the gun and deprive us of both of our info roles.

"Might be"?

"Might be"???

If you're the real Crow, you should know.

[Persolus]

Oh, Olivia is my life cleric from a game Vecna dm'ed on discord, A halloween intended one shot (ended up being a few weeks)

Sheet in question.

https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2708671

Wouldn't baning (No one can use powers on you) fit the fluff of banishment better then healing magic? Which admittedly is a spell offered to life clerics but its not something they specialize in.

...that is a very specific reference that only AV could have picked up on, were you that confident that AV wasn't a wolf at the start of the game?

[AvatarVecna]

...that is a very specific reference that only AV could have picked up on, were you that confident that AV wasn't a wolf at the start of the game?

Also like...I'm gonna go ahead and confirm that I ran a Halloween game with Olivia as a life cleric. But this isn't even a great argument for Illven's claim being real.

1) Myth-weavers sheets don't have dates on them, so for all any of you know, that sheet was made in a rush this morning to support this claim (or even a few days ago). I know for a fact it was made months ago, but there's no actual proof of that. Xihirli might also know that for a fact but I'm not sure.

2) "I made a character awhile back who is a life cleric and decided to roleplay as them as a hint at my PR" doesn't make the claim any more valid. Unless wolfteam has no braincells between them, they know a fake Crow claim is a good idea at some point, so setting one up is valuable to them. There is no reason wolf!Illven couldn't have decided to roleplay as her super-healer specifically to softclaim Crow to me specifically.

3) This isn't really a counterpoint to the claim as much as a heads up to Illven: the Medic vs Baner confusion is because "doctor" is a common rolename for the Baner mechanic (who protects their target in a "you got shot last night but I removed the bullet and patched you up" kind of way).

[Illven]

Like seriously let's pretend we're in a world where I am a fake Crow. Put yourself in Illven's shoes.

You're getting wagoned, so you truthfully claim Crow right before bed and go to sleep. When you wake up, there is someone else also claiming to be Crow. Do you assume:

1) This person is obviously a lying wolf trying to get me lynched with a fake counterclaim.

2) This person is in fact a second Crow.

3) This person is a townie fake-counterclaiming Crow for some reason.

Of course it's gonna be the first one. Of course there's not two Crows. Of course a townie isn't fake counterclaiming. If you are Crow!Illven, there is not a world where I'm not a lying wolf trying to cause town problems. So what is this initial reaction?



"Might be"?

"Might be"???

If you're the real Crow, you should know.

Except here's a few things.

A) Yes, I obviously know you're lying about your role. And actually the text of my role makes option 2 impossible. You, and ONLY YOU are told the roles of dead players after each Day or Night, assuming there were any. The real question is why you would lie about it.
While the odds that you are a lying wolf is sky high, we just had a game where a non wolf faked a townie power role.

And B) Let me complete the thought, that you might be MORE LIKELY to fake a claim here then a normal game, cause you won't be outed, until either a monkey dies and you say nothing about it. Or the seer outs you and risks their life.

...that is a very specific reference that only AV could have picked up on, were you that confident that AV wasn't a wolf at the start of the game?

It's less. Vecna CANT be a wolf, and more if Vecna tries to claim otherwise I pull the sheet.

In addition, I have mentioned the character in passing to Xi, but I wouldn't be surprised is she doesn't remember it.

3) This isn't really a counterpoint to the claim as much as a heads up to Illven: the Medic vs Baner confusion is because "doctor" is a common rolename for the Baner mechanic (who protects their target in a "you got shot last night but I removed the bullet and patched you up" kind of way).

Why is it called a doctor if it also prevents non fatal power usages? What the chemicals they treated you with makes you unscryable?


I just want to assure you Vecna that I don't blame you for trying to get me killed, you're a wolf doing your wolfy best to wolf.

Town going "Hey relative newbie make some reads" Townie "Does their best" Town "Hey relative newbie these are not expert level reads, CLEARLY WOLF."

Let's just say I can tell why you don't get new players often.

[AvatarVecna]

It's less. Vecna CANT be a wolf, and more if Vecna tries to claim otherwise I pull the sheet.

In addition, I have mentioned the character in passing to Xi, but I wouldn't be surprised is she doesn't remember it.

As mentioned though, there's no reason for me to say she's not a healer because it's more or less irrelevant if you're telling the truth about that.

Why is it called a doctor if it also prevents non fatal power usages? What the chemicals they treated you with makes you unscryable?

Generally, the baner doesn't protect from non-kill powers. That's something we sometimes do around here because there's so many anti-town powers that can exist, but usually it's just protection from killing. In fact if you check the Spider role, you'll see they only protect from the kill.

Town going "Hey relative newbie make some reads" Townie "Does their best" Town "Hey relative newbie these are not expert level reads, CLEARLY WOLF."

Let's just say I can tell why you don't get new players often.

It's part of why I try to give new players a pass their first few games. I will say that if I was like...Spider, and you'd claimed Spider, I might've been willing to just let that slide 'til like d3 or something. Not worth chasing someone away with aggressive accusations when they can't even mislead town. But if you're gonna fakeclaim my infopower I can't just let that go. Sorry.

Getting new players isn't too hard, it seems we have at least one each game. Keeping them can be a chore, but that's partly just cuz it's that kinda game. This community is relatively chill (I'm in a game over on MU right now that is supposed to be a quiet game for quiet people that has reached 5700 posts by N3 ;-;), but social lying games tend to be a very "love it or hate it" kinda deal.