MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable

[JNAProductions]

Honestly, I think a big issue with the Protean is that it's not a particularly iconic monster.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Rich say something along the lines of "People will know what the monster is when they're revealed"?

[InvisibleBison]

Honestly, I think a big issue with the Protean is that it's not a particularly iconic monster.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Rich say something along the lines of "People will know what the monster is when they're revealed"?

No, he didn't. He said that people (from context, probably specifically people who are invested in the guessing game) will be satisfied when MitD's identity is revealed.

[Kish]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Rich say something along the lines of "People will know what the monster is when they're revealed"?

No, that's Telephone Game. His exact words are in the thread-starting post.

I will say this much: It is possible to guess.
That is, it isn't something I just made up for the story. It wouldn't be any fun for the answer to a mystery to be something I invented just for one purpose, would it? I won't finally throw back the darkness and have someone say, "Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!" or some other made-up monster.

[JNAProductions]

Okay, thank you. In that case, Protean would make fine sense.

[Peelee]

Honestly, I think a big issue with the Protean is that it's not a particularly iconic monster.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Rich say something along the lines of "People will know what the monster is when they're revealed"?

To the best of my knowledge, no, this was never said.

Okay. My argument is, that the single defining quality of a Protean is constant shapeshifting; and yet,
–the one thing the Monster consistently does is actively and deliberately use its most difficult to use pertinent innate ability, which is suppressing/counteracting that;
–except when it is very convenient for him to suddenly develop a special ability;
–except in the Circus scene where he feels that it is very important that he maintain consistent features, but is still an ever-boiling tide of flesh regardless.

So, he mostly maintains a shape/size/features set, which is somewhat unlike a Protean (a), which he only seems not to do when it is suddenly convenient to produce a wild transformation (b), but he is somewhat both "a form you are comfortable with" and "an ever-shifting tide of flesh" in the Circus scene (to explain both the constant features and the reactions)(c).

Speaking only for myself, the lack of shapechanging vis-à-vis eye/mouth/limb number/placement is not an issue because we know for a fact that in Stickworld the laws of drama are just as real as the laws of physics. Just as a random Azurite soldier suddenly no longer dies because they said their name, or an imp conjures up a 200 foot balor because the odds were a million to one, so too would a Protean who is s supposed to remain a mystery creature always have two eyes in same position when on camera. No action. No willful desire. No effort at all on its behalf. Nothing more than the dramatic convention necessitating it be so because it's supposed to be a mystery.

I have previously gone on record stating that if it is, in fact, a Protean, then the reveal will likely show it changing over the course of several panels while still keeping its eyes in the same number and relative position (at least in the beginning). I have also predicted that, assuming it is a Protean, the heroes will be just as confused as a reader who has never been to the forums and would not know what they were looking at.

If you dislike these ideas, that's perfectly fine, I'm not trying to argue or convince anyone of anything. Just putting it out there because i did want to note that "it must be using an action to maintain form" is not the only proposed reason given for the eye placement/number. In fact, i believe back when i was trying to argue this to be the case, i did not away anyone at all, so dismissing this puts one in plentiful company (and the lack of any such support is probably why my guess seems to be pretty well forgotten).

[Metastachydium]

Speaking only for myself, the lack of shapechanging vis-à-vis eye/mouth/limb number/placement is not an issue because we know for a fact that in Stickworld the laws of drama are just as real as the laws of physics. Just as a random Azurite soldier suddenly no longer dies because they said their name, or an imp conjures up a 200 foot balor

Pit Fiend. It's a Pit Fiend or similar. Balors are Demons, come on, people!

because the odds were a million to one, so too would a Protean who is s supposed to remain a mystery creature always have two eyes in same position when on camera. No action. No willful desire. No effort at all on its behalf. Nothing more than the dramatic convention necessitating it be so because it's supposed to be a mystery.

And I'll maintain that I feel like that would be trolling (v. Sean Connery, the cheerful, portly, mute young woman), and is also somewhat contrived when he could easily just be an actual thing with yellow eyes.

I have also predicted that, assuming it is a Protean, the heroes will be just as confused as a reader who has never been to the forums and would not know what they were looking at.

Heh. No argument there!

If you dislike these ideas, that's perfectly fine, I'm not trying to argue or convince anyone of anything. Just putting it out there because i did want to note that "it must be using an action to maintain form" is not the only proposed reason given for the eye placement/number. In fact, i believe back when i was trying to argue this to be the case, i did not away anyone at all, so dismissing this puts one in plentiful company (and the lack of any such support is probably why my guess seems to be pretty well forgotten).

Noted, and thank you for sharing. (EVEN IF YOU ARE WRONG!!)

[hroþila]

Speaking only for myself, the lack of shapechanging vis-à-vis eye/mouth/limb number/placement is not an issue because we know for a fact that in Stickworld the laws of drama are just as real as the laws of physics. Just as a random Azurite soldier suddenly no longer dies because they said their name, or an imp conjures up a 200 foot balor because the odds were a million to one, so too would a Protean who is s supposed to remain a mystery creature always have two eyes in same position when on camera. No action. No willful desire. No effort at all on its behalf. Nothing more than the dramatic convention necessitating it be so because it's supposed to be a mystery.

Personally I would find that super contrived, and it would leave a bad taste in my mouth. Now, to be clear, I'm not saying "this is disqualifying because I expect other people and most importantly The Giant to agree with me on where the limits of acceptable artistic licence are", I'm saying "I hope that's not it because I wouldn't like it". For me it'd be a cop-out, like Julio Scoundrél's "it made for a better story" thing only a thousand times worse. If it's a Protean (which I still think might be the best candidate? I go back and forth on this) I think I would be mostly fine with the eyes not moving across transformations as long as we're shown that's just a normal characteristic of Proteans, that the transformations were indeed taking place under the cover of darkness all along and that the rules of drama had nothing to do with it

[Peelee]

Pit Fiend. It's a Pit Fiend or similar. Balors are Demons, come on, people!

Actual argument I will put forth: demons are better.

[Kish]

Indeed. And thus one would have responded to being summoned by a little creep like Qarr by stepping on him and now the comic would be somewhere different.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Okay. My argument is, that the single defining quality of a Protean is constant shapeshifting; and yet,
–the one thing the Monster consistently does is actively and deliberately use its most difficult to use pertinent innate ability, which is suppressing/counteracting that;
–except when it is very convenient for him to suddenly develop a special ability;
–except in the Circus scene where he feels that it is very important that he maintain consistent features, but is still an ever-boiling tide of flesh regardless.

FTR: this is a strawman. No-one has argued this.

The actual argument, as has been stated over and over, is that MitD retains a face to fit in. It retains it at all times, no "excepts" anywhere. It has a face in the circus, it has a face in the jungle, it has a face whether it is convenient or not. The rest of him is a mass of boiling flesh. The assertion that this is "its most difficult to use" is a fallacy conjured by Meta to strengthen his weak case, with no support other than his say-so. Proteans basic description is that they copy what they see. Everyone around MitD has faces, which they use to emote. Protean!MitD would, the argument goes, attempt to copy that, as something that comes naturally to all proteans. To duplicate an ability seen in an otherworldly construct he saw only once decades earlier and that he had to reach deep into his subconscious to recall would be far harder than "copy those things with eyes and mouths all around me".

And as Peele points out, it is hardly the only argument. Like I was pointing out earlier, it could be that the eyes are not there at all and are a comic convention so that MitD can emote at all. Or it could be that he is not in fact using alter shape and he is stuck with a face because of the drama laws of the OotS universe.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

FTR: this is a strawman. No-one has argued this.

The actual argument, as has been stated over and over, is that MitD retains a face to fit in. It retains it at all times, no "excepts" anywhere. It has a face in the circus, it has a face in the jungle, it has a face whether it is convenient or not. The rest of him is a mass of boiling flesh. The assertion that this is "its most difficult to use" is a fallacy conjured by Meta to strengthen his weak case, with no support other than his say-so. Proteans basic description is that they copy what they see. Everyone around MitD has faces, which they use to emote. Protean!MitD would, the argument goes, attempt to copy that, as something that comes naturally to all proteans. To duplicate an ability seen in an otherworldly construct he saw only once decades earlier and that he had to reach deep into his subconscious to recall would be far harder than "copy those things with eyes and mouths all around me".

And as Peele points out, it is hardly the only argument. Like I was pointing out earlier, it could be that the eyes are not there at all and are a comic convention so that MitD can emote at all. Or it could be that he is not in fact using alter shape and he is stuck with a face because of the drama laws of the OotS universe.

Grey Wolf

I believe the point being made, and one that I find myself agreeing with, is that the Protean cannot selectively halt its boiling like that. It either is or is not doing so. I will allow that the text is ambiguous on that point.

But beyond that, we've seen him with a face while sleeping, so that would seem to pretty definitively preclude him from deliberately shapeshifting eyes. Likewise, "not actually having eyes" would go against the idea that nothing about the chosen monster actually contradicts his pre-selection appearances (to say nothing of stretching artistic license to its breaking point), so that option is out. That leaves "contrived coincidence" as the only explanation that isnt contradicted by something, which... admittedly, at least is actually possible, so it does have that going for it compared to the other explanations, but holy crap would that be unsatisfying to me personally.

[Metastachydium]

FTR: this is a strawman. No-one has argued this.

The actual argument, as has been stated over and over, is that MitD retains a face to fit in.

Is it? Anyhow, if so, that's even worse.

It retains it at all times, no "excepts" anywhere. It has a face in the circus,

…where it doesn't help him at all to fit in, or we are straight at point c scenario…

it has a face in the jungle

…where he is initially alone with nobody to fit in among…

, it has a face whether it is convenient or not.

…and where we meet the real strawman (I never said he only has a face when convenient; I said he only ever seems to do meaningul shapeshifting when it is convenient).

The assertion that this is "its most difficult to use" is a fallacy conjured by Meta to strengthen his weak case, with no support other than his say-so.

The Protean's innate ability has two aspects:
–it constantly changes its shape as a free action, and willy-nilly; and
–it can stop that from happening, such as by way of maintaining a face and a hand using a move action each round.
Apparently I made up both the action cost system and the Protean's mechanical description, "to strengthen a weak case" (as opposesd to a case so strong as "the sleeping MitD is depicted as having eyes to signify that he has no eyes", Grey Wolf) AND I DIDN'T EVEN GET PAID FOR IT!!

And as Peele points out, it is hardly the only argument. Like I was pointing out earlier, it could be that the eyes are not there at all and are a comic convention so that MitD can emote at all.

I'm still waiting for you to provide an example of this "strong case" even being remotely plausible. That creatures with no eyes don't have eyes, in turn, is something we have actually seen, not an invention (how did you put it?) with no support other than your say-so.

Or it could be that he is not in fact using alter shape and he is stuck with a face because of the drama laws of the OotS universe.

Something I acknowledged when Peele brought it up, if as a possibility I find highly problematic.

EDIT: And what Keltest, who, unlike (probably) Tarquin totally is a Swordsage said.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

But beyond that, we've seen him with a face while sleeping

I've already pointed out that there is no reason to see the face of any creature while sleeping, unless that creature is a bird or a tree, neither of which apply to 99% of suggestions. So either he is faking sleep to not get in trouble, or those curved lines and zzzzz is evidence that the eyes are just comic convention for emoting.

GW

[Keltest]

I've already pointed out that there is no reason to see the face of any creature while sleeping, unless that creature is a bird or a tree, neither of which apply to 99% of suggestions. So either he is faking sleep to not get in trouble, or those curved lines and zzzzz is evidence that the eyes are just comic convention for emoting.

GW

I don't understand what you mean. Why would someone's face disappear while sleeping, and why would being a bird or tree make that not the case? Certainly my face is still there when I sleep.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't understand what you mean. Why would someone's face disappear while sleeping, and why would being a bird or tree make that not the case? Certainly my face is still there when I sleep.

Do you generally sleep standing up with your head against a window? As opposed to how most creatures do, by laying down their heads to sleep?

Alternatively: please catch up from here onwards.

GW

[Keltest]

Do you generally sleep standing up with your head against a window? As opposed to how the rest of bipeds and most quadrupeds, who lay down their heads to sleep?

Alternatively: please catch up from here onwards.

GW

Ok, but like... theres a pretty significant difference between having closed your eyes, which still leave the general shape visible via the eyelids, versus literally having no eyes.

And as you say, if the intent was to communicate that the eyes have literally vanished, he could just... not show them like that, and still include the zzzzs to signify he's sleeping.

ETA: also, there are several animals that do sleep standing up, so its not like thats particularly implausible.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Ok, but like... theres a pretty significant difference between having closed your eyes, which still leave the general shape visible via the eyelids, versus literally having no eyes.

And as you say, if the intent was to communicate that the eyes have literally vanished, he could just... not show them like that, and still include the zzzzs to signify he's sleeping.

ETA: also, there are several animals that do sleep standing up, so its not like thats particularly implausible.

OK, so present one. If this is the hill you want to die on, plant your damn flag and present this creature that fits all other clues, and also sleeps standing up.

Until you do, I'm going to keep considering any argument about MitD "looks like" while asleep to be easily brushed aside because none of the creatures suggested would have a reason to plant their face against a barred window to sleep when they could turn around and sleep on the shaded half of his box. Which means that those are comic shorthands, not actually closed eyes. And therefore we cannot draw any conclusions from what they look like. Because, I'm going to remind you, we cannot in fact see his actual eyes. They are deep inside magical impenetrable darkness, and have always been. Even in his very first appearance.

GW

[Keltest]

OK, so present one. If this is the hill you want to die on, plant your damn flag and present this creature that fits all other clues, and also sleeps standing up.

Until you do, I'm going to keep considering any argument about MitD "looks like" while asleep to be easily brushed aside because none of the creatures suggested would have a reason to plant their face against a barred window to sleep when they could turn around and sleep on the shaded half of his box. Which means that those are comic shorthands, not actually closed eyes. And therefore we cannot draw any conclusions from what they look like. Because, I'm going to remind you, we cannot in fact see his actual eyes. They are deep inside magical impenetrable darkness, and have always been. Even in his very first appearance.

GW

Uh, Horses? Hippos? Cows are capable of doing so but often choose not to. Giraffes sometimes. Zebras, apparently, and many birds. Its not a huge list, but its not some unheard of thing. I don't understand why you find the idea so offensive.

And also, "Rich is drawing eyes to signify that there are in fact no eyes." is going to be a non-starter argument for me no matter how you phrase it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Uh, Horses? Hippos? Cows are capable of doing so but often choose not to. Giraffes sometimes. Zebras, apparently, and many birds. Its not a huge list, but its not some unheard of thing. I don't understand why you find the idea so offensive.

I've been to zoos. I've seen animals asleep. They don't sleep with their heads against windows. Also, you seem to have missed the "and fits the other clues". Because, news flash, a horse ain't it.

And also, "Rich is drawing eyes to signify that there are in fact no eyes." is going to be a non-starter argument for me no matter how you phrase it.

You are going to be mightily offended, then by this image showing a fish with curved lines instead of eyes to indicate sleep. Turns out, fish don't have eyelids. so better rush over there and tell them that they are doing comic shorthand wrong, and that you insist that they must remain anatomically correct, rather than use the standard shorthand to indicate sleep by having curved lines instead of eyes.

Because no matter how much you attempt to mischaracterise my argument, "those aint' his eyes, that's just emoting shorthand to communicate he is asleep" is not some outlandish idea. It is extremely common way of indicating sleep even in creatures who do not in fact close their eyes to sleep.

GW

[Keltest]

I've been to zoos. I've seen animals asleep. They don't sleep with their heads against windows. Also, you seem to have missed the "and fits the other clues". Because, news flash, a horse ain't it.

Presumably they arent left in a box just barely large enough for them to stand in either. I'm not sure what your point is. Do you think the MITD is pressing his face up against the bars of the box when he's awake? Or is it more likely that he's just standing there, and then falls asleep in the same position he was standing in?

ETA: isnt the box cardboard? He absolutely cannot actually be leaning against it, awake or otherwise. It would break.

You are going to be mightily offended, then by this image showing a fish with curved lines instead of eyes to indicate sleep. Turns out, fish don't have eyelids. so better rush over there and tell them that they are doing comic shorthand wrong, and that you insist that they must remain anatomically correct, rather than use the standard shorthand to indicate sleep by having curved lines instead of eyes.

Gw

Fish do have eyes though, which makes me rather certain you have missed the point I was making.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Presumably they arent left in a box just barely large enough for them to stand in either. I'm not sure what your point is. Do you think the MITD is pressing his face up against the bars of the box when he's awake? Or is it more likely that he's just standing there, and then falls asleep in the same position he was standing in?

Yes, of course I think that when awake he is standing to look out the window so he can see what's going on. The hell kind of question is that. And I think that when he goes to sleep, he curls up on the floor and his face won't be anywhere near the window. Because the box is twice as big as the area he uses under the umbrella, so he can just go prone or at the very least sit down. What I cannot plausibly picture is him remaining standing up with his face against a window when trying to sleep.

And no, it is not made of cardboard It is solid enough to be pushed onto a cart. With MitD inside.

Fish do have eyes though, which makes me rather certain you have missed the point I was making.

Given you are attempting to respond to my argument, if "your point" has nothing to do with mine, then I'll take that as a concession that you don't have an answer to "there is nothing we can conclude, because we do not see his face, and those lines when 'asleep' are just comic shorthand that he is in fact asleep".

GW

[Keltest]

Yes, of course I think that when awake he is standing to look out the window so he can see what's going on. The hell kind of question is that. And I think that when he goes to sleep, he curls up on the floor and his face won't be anywhere near the window. Because the box is twice as big as the area he uses under the umbrella, so he can just go prone or at the very least sit down. What I cannot plausibly picture is him remaining standing up with his face against a window when trying to sleep.

The window is irrelevant. He fell asleep where he was standing. The fact that there was a window there is meaningless because he was not using the window to sleep with in any capacity.

Given you are attempting to respond to my argument, if "your point" has nothing to do with mine, then I'll take that as a concession that you don't have an answer to "there is nothing we can conclude, because we do not see his face, and those lines when 'asleep' are just comic shorthand that he is in fact asleep".

GW

Fish have eyes. They drew a fish with stylistic eyes. Your argument is that it is possible Rich is representing a complete lack of eyes with stylistic eyes. Not just closed eyes, but a complete absence of them. I find that tantamount to arguing that Rich might by lying to us, either artistically or when he said nothing about the MITD's early appearances contradicted the monster, or both.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Your argument is that it is possible Rich is representing a complete lack of eyes with stylistic eyes.

No it is not. And if we've reached the point of the conversation where you are now reduced to putting words in my mouth, it is over.

GW

[Keltest]

No it is not. And if we've reached the point of the conversation where you are now reduced to putting words in my mouth, it is over.

GW

Your words my dude, not mine:

"those aint' his eyes, that's just emoting shorthand to communicate he is asleep"

For the record, that is the same shape that Rich has used to represent closed eyes on other characters as well. There is a long and storied precedent for that.

[Crusher]

I find that tantamount to arguing that Rich might by lying to us, either artistically or when he said nothing about the MITD's early appearances contradicted the monster, or both.

Eh. Should a flesh-less skull be capable of facial expressions? No, beyond how open its mouth is.

Does Xykon have facial expressions? Yes, all the time.

The Giant being willing to take modest artistic liberties is one of the best established things in all of OotS.

[Kish]

The only scene where I remember the creature being shown asleep with closed eyes was the Escape scene. Which is well after where Rich said "nothing so far contradicts," and where he might have been faking sleeping to avoid Xykon's attention anyway.

Which isn't to say that the consistent two eyes aren't a con for the protean, I do consider them one, but not enough of one that I'll be astounded if he turns out to be a protean regardless. Much more of a problem for the uvuudaum never mind the uvuudaum's description says nothing about lacking eyes and Rich isn't beholden to other artists' interpretations of no text.

[Tzardok]

Which isn't to say that the consistent two eyes aren't a con for the protean, I do consider them one, but not enough of one that I'll be astounded if he turns out to be a protean regardless. Much more of a problem for the uvuudaum never mind the uvuudaum's description says nothing about lacking eyes and Rich isn't beholden to other artists' interpretations of no text.

I'm not sure why people keep claiming that. The description of the uvuudaum in the Epic Level Handbook says the following:

An uvuudaum is a humanoid creature with two standard human arms that protrude from the torso where expected, but whose lower body has six arms instead of legs, splayed spiderlike below it (though loose clothing somewhat drapes its grotesque legs). The real horror is the taillike appendage replacing what would be the head on a normal creature.At the very end of the appendage is an ironhard spike.

It pretty much exactly looks like the picture. Yes, it doesn't explicitely say that it has no eyes, but I would assume that a tail or a spike generally don't have eyes, so if it had any eyes they would need to be explicitely mentioned.

[Kish]

Okay then. Eyes: much more of a problem for the uvuudaum.

[Joerg]

The only scene where I remember the creature being shown asleep with closed eyes was the Escape scene. Which is well after where Rich said "nothing so far contradicts," and where he might have been faking sleeping to avoid Xykon's attention anyway.

He's also asleep in the first panel of the jungle scene in SoD. He's got no reason to be faking it there.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Eh. Should a flesh-less skull be capable of facial expressions? No, beyond how open its mouth is.

Heck, here is Xykon, who not only lacks eyes but whose eye sockets are rigid, being drawn with curved lines indicating sleep (while presumably faking it). Wow, it's almost like it's some kind of comic shorthand.

I'm not sure why people keep claiming that. The description of the uvuudaum in the Epic Level Handbook says the following:

Could've used with that description ages ago. Yoink'ed.

Thanks!

ETA: except... what creature type is the uvuu? Most types still need to eat, so it must have a mouth-like organ somewhere, even if it is not in the forward appendage? Also, does it have blindsight?

GW