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Thread: Why is creating undead Evil?
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2020-09-27, 08:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is creating undead Evil?
Yet another poor analogy
The key word there is spread - i.e. fire propagates from fire, following conditions such as proximity of fuel, dryness, heat, oxygen etc. Spontaneous undead, as the name suggests, can appear in any environment, making them much less possible to control.
Undead also much, much more dangerous than fire. Forest fires top out at a mere CR 6 - spontaneous undead can be much higher than that individually, and that's not taking into account what happens if you get one that has intelligence, or casts spells, or can make spawn - let alone all three.
The morality of risking one doesn't even come close to that of risking the other.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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Re: Why is creating undead Evil?
To push the analogy further, forest fires can actually be good for a healthy ecosystem, while I'm not sure there's any such upside to spontaneous undead
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2020-09-27, 09:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is creating undead Evil?
It's your position that's flawed, actually. It can't both be true that mitigation is sufficient for car manufactures and that knowingly taking actions to make negative energy pollution worse is always unacceptable. Either this is an absolute (as it is in RAW), and any carbon pollution makes you Evil, or there are balancing tests that have an effect on the moral outcome. Moreover, it's obviously not true that there's no way to mitigate the pollution of zombie production. You could make your zombies by sicking Mohrgs on outlying villages and having death priests wander around sweeping up the results with Rebuke Undead. Compared to that, Animate Dead is the mitigated solution.
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Re: Why is creating undead Evil?
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Re: Why is creating undead Evil?
Given that animate dead is still evil (or at least "nongood, evil if used frequently") in 5e, I'm not sure I see the evidence for "WotC is now recoiling in disgust."
5e Create Undead is interesting in that you have to recast the spell every single day or lose control of your creations, who (surprise surprise) default to evil behavior.
Indeed.
Nigel, it's a bad analogy no matter how hard you try to push it.
Spoiler- Car manufacturers have mechanisms they can (and indeed must) place inside their creations and factories to mitigate the pollution/environmental damage they cause. Necromancers don't.
- When a given manufacturer breaks these rules, it's possible to trace the malfeasance back to them, because cars they make are required to be labeled with the creator's information and even the time and place of creation. Again, necromancers don't.
- If a given model of car is impossible to make safe, it is recalled/taken off the market completely and forbidden from being replicated. No such measures are possible with necromancy spells.
- There are powerful entities/organizations with a vested interest in making undeath as widespread and uncontrolled as possible (namely, gods/faiths that champion undeath in various D&D settings, such as Velsharoon, Nerull, Orcus, Urgathoa etc.) There is no such analogue for making cars as unsafe as possible.
- Civilizations that use cars know where the damage from the cars originates (i.e. the emissions of the cars themselves) and can structure society to contain that damage - natural preservations where driving is prohibited, green spaces in cities to absorb harmful gases, ongoing testing and disposal of older models etc.
Necromancers... you (hopefully) get the idea.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2020-09-28, 12:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is creating undead Evil?
First off, by RAW, that does absolutely nothing to mitigate the pollution. Secondly, it's way more evil than just casting animate dead, because now in addition to creating undead, you're also murdering a bunch of random innocent people. So, not only does it not help, it's actively worse. Do you have any better ideas?
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Re: Why is creating undead Evil?
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2020-09-28, 08:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is creating undead Evil?
Even if one accepts claims about anthropogenic global warming happening and causing wildfires and hurricanes as being totally true, the justification for not simply banning all fossil fuels is the good that is done with their use.
So the analogy should be a question of how much good is done with the undead created.
For creating undead to be inherently evil, then, it must be true that so much harm is caused by the animation of even one skeleton that no amount of lives saved, no amount of happiness generated, no amount of wonderful, good, wholesome, uplifting virtuous results of the use that skeleton is put to could ever be worth it. The sorrow, pain, devastation, loss, and ruin of creating that one skeleton must always outweigh any boon it might have granted.
Remember, to use the “car” analogy, you have to assert that every time you start up your car, it is creating so much pollution that it is a morally-indefensible act. No matter what good you plan to do while it’s running. This is required because we’re using this to justify why animate dead is always evil.
This does start us down the tracks to a trolley problem, though.
Objective morality, also, for the record isn’t inherently arbitrary. Newton’s laws are objective, but are not arbitrary; they’re derived from the underlying truths of how matter and energy behave.
Expecting objective morality to have fundamental foundation beyond “because something said so” is not demanding subjective morality. Subjective morality is morality that can say the same exact act is good to one observer and evil to another, based on their moral codes. And if morality is subjective, neither moral code is automatically more correct than the other.
Objective morality would make one more correct than the other in the same way that objective reality makes the atomic model of matter more correct than the elemental model of matter. Not because some arbitrary text says “yeah, that’s the model to use,” but because that model more closely resembles reality.
Great Wheel cosmology establishing objective morality means that there are fundamental forces that drive or are driven by moral choices. And the outer planes operate on rules that reflect these moralities (and ethics).
Now, the writers of the setting could claim that eating with your left hand is an evil act because it empowers the lower planes, but that becomes arbitrary and unsatisfying. Which is my problem with animate dead being evil because of “evil pollution.” You may as well be saying “it empowers the Abyss.” Why? Because!
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2020-09-28, 08:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is creating undead Evil?
The "car" is always on. It's impossible to turn off. Casting animate dead is manufacturing another always-on car, not turning an existing car on. And yes, I do believe making more polluting cars that can never be turned off is morally negative. ("Indefensible" is not the standard here - many evil acts can be defensible under some circumstances, that doesn't make those acts stop being evil.)
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Re: Why is creating undead Evil?
It’s only always on if you leave it intact and functional. If you build the always-on car for the purpose of one specific trip - perhaps to deliver life-saving medicine to a city where thousands of lives are in danger if they don’t get the medicine in a time frame that requires the car to get it there - and then disable/destroy it, it’s no different in terms of pollution than driving a regular car for it.
I’m sure you can see the analogy, but just to be complete: if you animate some undead for a particular good task and then destroy them, it’s analogous. And yet it’s evil to do so, no matter how good your purpose, nor how brief the polluting undead exist.
Which is another reason the pollution thing is silly: it depends on how long the undead last! As opposed to being an evil act because the act itself is evil.
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2020-09-28, 09:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is creating undead Evil?
Look there: there is Tyr - LG God of Justice
Now tell me: would such god do a certainly-non-[Good] thing like creating constantly-world-polluting Undead?
No?
But he did it: Miltiades the Undead Paladin is Tyr's creation
Not so [Evil] after all?..
I already said it, but one more time: those who complaining about the world-destroying properties of regular Undead are ignoring all known counter-examples - such as Baelnorns of Myth Drannor, largely-neutral Dustmen, or city of Hollowfaust
Also, I considering any references to Libris Mortis-exclusive content as dubious at best, because this book is:
- Full of variant rules almost to the Unearthed Arcana degree
- Poorly edited (Neutral example creature for always-Chaotic-Evil Gravetouched Ghoul template)
Last edited by ShurikVch; 2020-09-28 at 09:28 AM.
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Re: Why is creating undead Evil?
Undead and their creation has the [evil] descriptor on them or are usually some form of evil. These are not the only things in the game that are a thing without strong explanation behind the "why". In fact, simply due to undead and necromancers in general being considered evil in pop culture is a pretty simply "why". D&D thrives on a driving adversary for the players, most people tend towards good/neutral rather than evil, so having a mainstay of something to be the "bad guy" that is commonly considered by most people to be bad or evil is enough explanation for me.
If that's not for you though, Libris Mortis gives many examples of why undead can be in-universe considered evil. You've got the Atrocity Calls to Unlife theory, Negative Energy as a Supportive Force theory, Negative Energy as a Draining Force theory, Undeath as Contagion theory, and the Purposeful Reanimation theory. These exist as springboard ideas for you to just use, combine with each other, or adapt to make the most sense in your game. I think the point of the book is that there is not a singular reason for why the creation or summoning of undead is evil, but rather a combination of different reasons, perhaps differing due to cultures, practices, methodologies, etc.
In the Atrocity Calls to Unlife theory, it is specifically stated that an evil spirit powers the undead. If you're looking for a "why" that is just a catch all, there it is. The spirits that inhabit the corpse are either already evil or they are slowly corrupting a non-evil spirit in to being evil as the body converts from dead to undead.
In the Negative energy as a Supportive Force theory, it explains why the entity powered by negative energy would be evil, even though the energy itself is not inherently evil. It describes that negative energy suffuses undead, and this energy drives the hunger for consumption that all undead share, that is the drive to snuff out life. So while the negative energy is not bad, mindless undead, and even intelligent undead, are usually driven specifically to consume without remorse or without consideration for the target. Mindlessly killing innocents is an evil act, and these entities are driven to do so by the very energy that powers them.
In the Negative Energy as a Draining Force theory, you've got more support for the concept that negative energy, while not inherently evil, driving these entities is a net negative, an due to the fact that it drives these entities to conduct evil acts (wonton killing of innocents, creation of other evil entities, etc) on top of being a siphon of energy from the material to the negative energy plane (thus actively consuming and destroying the material plan without consideration) which all culminate in at the very least, the powered entity being considered irreversibly evil just due to it's very existence. The energy is not evil innately, but due to the effects it has on the thing it powers and what that thing does, the creature is evil.
Undeath as a Contagion discusses the fact that the way in which some undead reproduce is a mockery of the natural flow of life, and thus make this activity inherently evil, thus making those that perform it inherently evil.
Lastly, the Purposeful Reanimation theory explicitly discusses the difference between an undead and a flesh golem (zombie and flesh golem). The theory relies on the use or acceptance of two or more of the previous theories, that evil spirits are what inhabit undead, and they form a link/bond to the negative energy plane or are powered by negative energy. Since a flesh golem is not powered by negative energy, it does not have the same consumptive drive as something that is, thus if it goes uncontrolled, it will not default to consume. Second, it is not inhabited by an evil spirit, but an elemental spirit, again removing the innate drive to commit evil acts or preventing the spirit from slowly converting to evil as presented in the Atrocity Calls to Unlife theory.
If none of these are satisfactory to you, Libris Mortis basically gives you free reign to make up your own reason. What it doesn't do is remove the evil descriptors or the evil alignment from most undead. It's seeking to give explanations, or as it says in it's first paragraph of chapter one, "...attempts to ascertain the nature of undeath itself, presenting several theories concerning the energies that give rise to unlife."
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2020-09-28, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is creating undead Evil?
So, as I read it, the Libris Mortis explanation basically admits, "no, D&D morality doesn't actually make any sense; please homebrew whatever answer works for your table for underlying reasons that could produce this illogical mess, where {X,y, z} are evil, but {p,q,r} are not".
So I return to my "darts at a dartboard" answer.
So. Can we get a list of the top 5-10 "this is evil?" And the top 5-10 "but this isn't?!"? (And, to remove any real-world stigma attached to those words, maybe we'll replace "evil" with "chicken"). I'll propose "animating the dead" as chicken, and creating golems as not chicken to start the lists.
Then, once we have the lists, we'll see if anyone can propose an algorithm with which an AI could parse actions into chicken and not chicken.
Lastly, if we all agree on the validity of the algorithm, we'll get a good laugh at what that would say about other things.
Sound like a plan?
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2020-09-28, 12:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is creating undead Evil?
No, it's the exact opposite. It shows that not only does it make sense, but also that there are multiple alternative explanations that would also make sense.
Your claiming it doesn't make sense, for me, has the same energy as comedians saying they should just make the whole plane out of that stuff, or that the architect who put that improbable ventilation shaft in the Death Star should be fired. It's like a joke that's only funny if you don't understand the source material.Last edited by Troacctid; 2020-09-28 at 12:52 PM.
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Re: Why is creating undead Evil?
I do not agree with the flesh golem. It can go berserk in which it destroys what is nearest, including any sentient beings. If you except that that is not evil and is okay then how is a zombie or skeletons potential actions any different?
I know the RAW answer is because a developer wrote it so, or it's another sacred cow that wont die. A N entity can do evil acts, anyone can, but it is lacking in the capacity to differentiate. Animals consume to survive because of instinct, are undead (non intelligent) likewise motivated by instinct? I agree it doesnt make sense and is unsatisfactory and I dislike that even though I am certain the answer is actually cause developer X thought so without a lot of thought, like nearly every alignment based thing in 3.5. See also sanctify the wicked dominate person etc.
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Re: Why is creating undead Evil?
perhaps you can use this as an option to bring an elder evil into the world. storywise it would be like "the world has legalized Necromancy and corpse labor to help with tasks like mining and handling hazardous things. but in turn more Negative energy is being released and waking up Attropusm the elder evil and no one knows until he busts through the earth or descends from the clouds or rides in on a giant hippo (however he comes in) and begins WRECKING the world and causing chaos. it then falls to the adventurers to fight him off.
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Re: Why is creating undead Evil?
Iirc, Attropus drifts through space and approaches in a super-telegraphed way. He basically appears as the moon from Majora's Mask
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Re: Why is creating undead Evil?
Check me out on TikTok @OGDojo also check out my Youtube @ObscureGamingDojo
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2020-09-28, 03:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is creating undead Evil?
I know it's not so much your own opinion as retelling of an article in Libris Mortis, but allow me to comment on it
None of that explain neither:
existence of Good Liches and Undead Paladins,
nor why Crypt Things and Gravecrawlers are "always Neutral",
nor - for that matter - why Entropic Creature template doesn't affects alignment (easily can be Entropic Paladin - +2 to Con and Cha is handy, and LA +2 isn't too crippling).
Heck, Xeg-Yi Energon is made of Negative Energy, but its alignment is "Always neutral", and neither summoning nor calling it to Material Plane count as [Evil] act
Actually, crafting of Flesh Golem required casting of Animate Dead, so I wouldn't be so sure about the "not powered by negative energy"; and its Berserk SA may do way more damage than extremely vague hazard of "Undead pollution"...
And speaking about that - Elder Evils have a couple of things to say there:
Restless Dead
“Too long have we reveled in our wickedness, too long have we sampled the forbidden—now the gods shun us, sealing the gates to heaven and leaving us lost among the dead.”
When this sign appears, the demarcation between life and death grows ever more blurry. After souls depart, their bodies stir in a wretched existence neither alive nor dead.
The sign of the restless dead first makes itself known by isolated occurrences of zombies and skeletons in the community. As it strengthens, the undead plague increases. Corpses pull themselves free from graves, slaughtering former friends and lovers and swelling their ranks until only the shuffling dead remain.
Effect: In the early stages of this sign, only a few of the dead spontaneously animate. Necromancy magic becomes more efficacious, while healing magic is suppressed. As the sign intensifies, more and more corpses rise, growing stronger all the while.
Details: Atropus (Chapter 2) is associated with this sign. See page 17 for more information.Atropus's presence in the sky causes the dead to rise from their graves.
Faint: Necromancy spells and spell-like abilities are cast at +2 caster level. Whenever a living creature dies, a 20% chance exists that it will spontaneously rise as a zombie (MM 265) in 1d4 rounds.
Moderate: As faint, but the chance of spontaneous animation increases to 40%. In addition, the entire campaign setting is affected as if by a desecrate spell (PH 218). Casting consecrate removes this effect in the spell’s area until its duration expires.
Strong: As moderate, but the chance of spontaneous animation increases to 80%. Even creatures that died before this sign manifested begin to rise as skeletons or zombies, depending on the condition of their corpses. In addition, the campaign setting is affected as if by an unhallow spell (PH 297). Casting hallow removes this effect in the spell's area.
All conjuration (healing) spells and similar spell-like abilities are impeded, meaning that a caster must succeed on a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the level of the spell) or lose the spell or spell slot without effect.
Overwhelming: As strong, but any creature that dies automatically rises as a zombie 1 round after death. Previously dead creatures automatically animate as skeletons or zombies. All undead creatures gain an extra 2 hit points per Hit Die. In addition, they gain turn resistance equal to one-quarter of their Hit Die total (1–7 HD grants +1 turn resistance, 8–15 HD grants +2, 16–23 HD grants +3, and so on). This bonus stacks with any turn resistance a creature already possesses.
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2020-09-28, 03:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is creating undead Evil?
Not only made of negative energy but also specifically driven to negate positive beings (particularly its positive counterpart) as in the second theory
that it drives these entities to conduct evil acts (...creation of other evil entities, etc)
EDIT:
Also, the first theory, the one about an evil spirit powering the undead, is a non-starter because then the undead would be vulnerable to Banishment and Protection from EvilLast edited by Bohandas; 2020-09-28 at 03:32 PM.
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2020-09-28, 03:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-09-28, 03:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is creating undead Evil?
I feel like the answer here is extremely obvious: negative energy has different effects when used in different ways, which is why some uses of it are evil and some are not. This was covered upthread, multiple times. It's also covered in the post you literally just quoted. There's no contradiction whatsoever.
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Re: Why is creating undead Evil?
Rhymes with "Protracted."
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2020-09-28, 05:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is creating undead Evil?
Are you claiming that every last one of the reasons given is RAW as *fact*, not as an *optional* explanation for why creating undead is evil? If so, that's not what I initially heard claimed, and that changes my response.
Still doesn't exactly leave us with a clear algorithm with which to evaluate D&D morality.
Actually, I reject those rules being universal. After all, one of them is, "draws Atropos". Unless Atropos is a canonically mandated part of every 3e setting, that *cannot* be a part of the universal heuristic of D&D morality.
In light of this, your stance is…?
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Re: Why is creating undead Evil?
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2020-09-28, 05:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why is creating undead Evil?
If there are uses of negative energy that are not Evil, that is directly contradictory with Animate Dead being Evil because its use of negative energy causes pollution. If you can summon a being that is literally made of negative energy without causing problems, I fail to see how it is remotely possible that making something that is simply powered by negative energy would have to be Evil.
The RAW is simply incoherent. This is a more reasonable discussion of negative energy, but obviously not RAW (since the RAW doesn't make any sense).