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2020-11-21, 01:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about
So I see people talking about how the new class options are bad and to nerfed and I see some people talking about how the new race stuff seems bad but I don't see people talking about how the rest of the book seems underbaked.
so tashas adds the following: new subclasses, new class options, new race changes, group patrons, new magic items/spells, sidekicks, parlaying with the monster, environmental hazards, and puzzles.
I think that outside of sidekicks everything else in the book is underbaked. I am not going to talk about the new subclasses but I will talk about the rest.
the new class options are just not enough. the system was advertised as a way to customize your class. but it is mostly about replacing class features that are bad or adding new class features/ expanding old ones. and to be honest this just doesn't help. most of the replacement options are just more powerful, which is welcome but removes any choice. I feel their new features would be better if every replacement got 2 options of equal, power. one witch follows the theme of upscaling and correcting the old feature and another that is a true alt choice.
the Race changes are weird. I like the Respect part. although I feel there should have been rules for armor proficiencies, I know it only affects one race but that race has been directly buffing because of these new rules. if armor proficiencies up to medium were on the table it would bring dwarves down and in line with some of the other races. it wouldn't fix everything but it would help.
the second part of the race changes is the Custom Lineage. it was hyped up as a way to make interesting new races and heavily customizing your race, but it was just a buffed V human. I feel this could have worked if there was a set of special feats meant for this system or something like that. a way to truly create a new race or special descendant of a race. to be honest, I would have preferred a system like pathfinders 1e but simpler. once again a feature was promised to do one thing and didn't really do that.
Group patrons, this feels like a repeat of the piety system/renown system. It's great but should have instructions for inexperienced DMs. their system is great until you need to create a patron not listed and have to reverse engineer the rules used to make them. I feel when Wtoc adds a system like this it should be accompanied by some extensive discussion of the design policy/rules for creation to help newer DMS.
Spells. they're just so few non-reprints and the few non-reprints are mostly summoning, don't get me wrong summoning needs more spells and an all-around rework but out of the 21 spells 5 are reprints, and 10 are summoning spells. other areas need attention, and we can see that they know this as the rest of the new spell cover other areas then need more spells, and then there is the part where most of the summoning spells could have been cut and merged into a few.
Customizing spells, this looked like it would be a discussion on things like burning hands and frost fingers, but instead, it was just a blip about flavoring a spell's appearance. I would have loved it if it explained upon the ideas set in the DMG about customizing spells but instead, it is a restating of the "Let players describe their spells how they want" from the same section of the DMG.
Magic items, kinda the opposite of spells. I think tattoos got it good. there are enough of them to satisfy most people but the rest of the Magic items are a bit odd. each of them feels like they're part of a set/group like the tattoos but don't have compliments.
Sidekick, great I feel like they nailed it. but this is mostly because they have been working on this idea for a while and have had 3 major versions now. sidekicks are good because they spent a lot of time getting playtested and iterated on.
Parleying with Monsters, wonderful interesting but just doesn't have enough space. this should have been a chapter or a 6-10 page spread. It should have interactions with social encounter rules and expanded them, not just use these rules, and here are some examples. It's a great idea but that's it. it's the literary equivalent of writing Hero and then 20 examples.
Environmental Hazards I just wish this was most structured. for places like the far realm and fey wilds, this makes sense but for hunted houses, Blessed Radiance, and most of the rest they need more structure. there are some rules in the dmg for other Planes and I wish the rules had something like that for these more structured locations. here is 1 or 2 always-on things and then the tables and special rules. I also wish these rules dived into creating your own special environments and balancing them.
Puzzles, this is what many of the other systems needed. it's well developed and great but I feel it gameifys puzzles a little too much. but this type of development is what most of the other systems needed.
I think almost everything in this book should have been worked on longer.Have you accepted the Flying Spaghetti Monster as your Lord and Savior? If so, add this to your signature!
Beholders are just a meatball that fell out of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
my first game started on a pirate ship
Sorry for any spelling mistake
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2020-11-21, 01:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about
We didn't need any new spells, heck, the immense pile of spells is already unwieldy. But we got some anyway, and what is wrong with a different take on summoning? Nothing. Of all of the added spells (besides the reprints form SCAG and the adventure on the ice, the summoning ones (being customizable) are a nice addition in terms of having another option for a summons.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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2020-11-21, 01:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about
I love the new take on summoning my problem and the unwieldy pile of spells is because of things like this. the problem is that a lot of classes need certain spells to use their class features and some of these spells just don't exist. some types of magic get over supported to the point that they blout the spell count in the game were others like acid cold and summoning lack support. I think summonings new support is great but we should have only gotten 5 new spells because half of the new summoning spells are just the same spell with different paint. they could have all been compressed into one balanced spell.
this is a great topic that I would love to talk more about. I generally think Wotc Needs to give love to a lot of spell groups and just that they mishandle this one. what they made works but could easily have been less and opened up room for other needed support without compromising the support they gave.Have you accepted the Flying Spaghetti Monster as your Lord and Savior? If so, add this to your signature!
Beholders are just a meatball that fell out of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
my first game started on a pirate ship
Sorry for any spelling mistake
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2020-11-21, 01:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about
I'm pretty sure the group patron is a reprint if what was in the Eberron book. At least that's what it was billed as.
The customized race option is pretty dull, but I don't think I'd mind it if a player felt they really needed it to make the character they we're aiming for. Honestly, though, I think its pushed me towards the camp of changing up V.uman a bit to keep it interesting and then just letting everyone get a feat at first level.Avatar by linklele
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2020-11-21, 01:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about
I just check about group patrons and your right but I still feel my points stand. if you are going to reprint something to bring it into more tables it should be better explained. I think group patrons work in Eberron because from the looks of it all setting unique patrons seem to be covered.
Have you accepted the Flying Spaghetti Monster as your Lord and Savior? If so, add this to your signature!
Beholders are just a meatball that fell out of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
my first game started on a pirate ship
Sorry for any spelling mistake
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2020-11-21, 01:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about
I think it's explained well enough. In fact, the system we designed prior to either of these books print for our Adventurer's Guild bonuses in Dungeon of the Mad Mage is a nearly exact match to the Guild Patron.
For new players and DM's, simply using a template is going to be an easy and quick solution. For those edge cases you mention, you're likely already becoming or are an experienced player and adjusting the rules should be something you're familiar with now.
For 5e, rules don't need to be introduced with a huge amount of detail so long as they're functional and have room for tuning. That's kind of how the system is designed.
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2020-11-21, 02:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about
Have you accepted the Flying Spaghetti Monster as your Lord and Savior? If so, add this to your signature!
Beholders are just a meatball that fell out of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
my first game started on a pirate ship
Sorry for any spelling mistake
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2020-11-21, 02:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about
I am actually happy to have compendium-style books reprint mechanical elements to keep them all in one place. Also, though I realize this is not a concern for everyone, the more options that are consolidated into one book the easier it is to use those options in Adventurer's League games. (Not that we really get to play in those any more.)
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2020-11-21, 02:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about
The Cantrips being reprinted give them a sense of being official since they were originally printed in a campaign world sourcebook. It's the same reason Artificer was printed so that it's not only for Eberron. They didn't have to, but some DMs need authenticity. The Tasha book has more clout as an official expansion than Sword Coast Adventure Guide which is "only" for Forgottten Realms. It was done before where spells from Princes of Apocalypse module book were reprinted in Xanathar.
The Summon spells are a useful necessity. Some players are really bothered by the Conjure spells. Some don't like multiple creatures appearing lengthening combat time. Some insist the DM chooses what comes and players don't like loss of control of their own spell or the DM doesn't give them what they want. Some don't like particular creatures that are accessible to be conjured even accepting players control what is conjured. The Summon spells are a compromise. It's one known creature for the spell, does its job, and the player can choose an ability appropriate to the situation. A problem with them is for Shepherd Druid which has a class ability based on HD of what he conjures. The Summon Spell creatures don't have HD, so you either have to house rule a fix or Shepherd Druid continues to cast his Conjure Spells.
The above is not to mean the Summon spells are or should be a replacement for the Conjure spells. Those still exist and gaming groups may continue to use them as they see fit.
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2020-11-21, 02:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about
Have you accepted the Flying Spaghetti Monster as your Lord and Savior? If so, add this to your signature!
Beholders are just a meatball that fell out of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
my first game started on a pirate ship
Sorry for any spelling mistake
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2020-11-21, 02:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about
Have you accepted the Flying Spaghetti Monster as your Lord and Savior? If so, add this to your signature!
Beholders are just a meatball that fell out of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
my first game started on a pirate ship
Sorry for any spelling mistake
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2020-11-21, 02:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about
Surprised on the lack of chatter on Tasha's mind whip. It's a beast for a 2nd level slot and the Debuff on a weaker save is worth it even disregarding the damage.
what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?
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2020-11-21, 02:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about
I like more spells. An unweildy list to select from is how a game gives good players the opportunity to have better PCs than bad players. A small list of nothing but good spells/options forces bad players into good choices. A game that forces everyone to be good is like a school exercise with no winners and participation trophies all around... a great safe space, but no fun for anyone.
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2020-11-21, 02:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about
Have you accepted the Flying Spaghetti Monster as your Lord and Savior? If so, add this to your signature!
Beholders are just a meatball that fell out of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
my first game started on a pirate ship
Sorry for any spelling mistake
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2020-11-21, 02:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about
This. There are so many spells already. If WotC wants to offer more players options, it should look at alternative totem options, alternative battlemaster maneuvers, alternative 4e-monk features, alternative invocations, alternative pact boons, alternative fighting styles, and alternative class features that replace current features. I think tasha does quite a lot of those - dunno how good since Europe doesn't get tasha's till december, but personally I'd prefer any new options above the one that already has the highest quantity.
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2020-11-21, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about
I understand where you are coming from but I feel the unwieldy amount of spells actively prevents good choices. think about this. picking the best fire spell is easy, but there are so many fire spells that are not only bad but horrible. now look at acid. there are some clear choices for good spells but there are so few you predy much have to take all of them if you are an acid focused character. this is what I think many people mean by unwieldy. there are some spell types so over-represented they actively remove choice. then there are spells groups that lack any support.
Have you accepted the Flying Spaghetti Monster as your Lord and Savior? If so, add this to your signature!
Beholders are just a meatball that fell out of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
my first game started on a pirate ship
Sorry for any spelling mistake
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2020-11-21, 02:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about
I agree kinda, yes I think WotC should focus on alts like that but there are some spell types so underrepresented that they need new spells. personly the alt feature system is bad. it should have had 2 or 3 more revisions before getting to a book. real choices instead of direct buff. I would be fine with direct buff so long as there are other options with the same power.
Have you accepted the Flying Spaghetti Monster as your Lord and Savior? If so, add this to your signature!
Beholders are just a meatball that fell out of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
my first game started on a pirate ship
Sorry for any spelling mistake
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2020-11-21, 02:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about
My group? We wanted to turn the tavern into an adventurer's guild and worked a system out with our DM. Lines up nearly 1 to 1 with this system and we made it almost 2 years ago now.
EDIT: To make my point clear, this is more than enough information if what amounts the same thing has been serving my group for near 2 years. It's more in slightly more in depth than what we came up with while being equally understandable. At that point we were newish to DND, I think it's fine.Last edited by ProsecutorGodot; 2020-11-21 at 02:39 PM.
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2020-11-21, 02:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about
Have you accepted the Flying Spaghetti Monster as your Lord and Savior? If so, add this to your signature!
Beholders are just a meatball that fell out of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
my first game started on a pirate ship
Sorry for any spelling mistake
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2020-11-21, 02:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about
Not sure I agree with the "it is not enough for me to succeed; others must fail" mentality being applied to a cooperative game. The biggest flaw of 3.X was Ivory Tower game design, which ended up bloating the game with a fair amount of crap. Imagine how much better it could've been if they weren't actively trying to make the game worse for some people. I'm in favor of more spells (and maneuvers and feats and so on) for providing a greater number of options, but they absolutely should not put stuff in the game to potentially make certain players play worse. And if not for those players' sake then for the sake of their groups.
Avatar by linklele
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2020-11-21, 02:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about
I really dont get why they dont do more spells and feats.
They can add more life to so many different character options. To be honest, a wizard, even one of a different school, tends to feel pretty identical to another if they have the same spells. A wizard, even one of the same school, tends to feel pretty different to another if they have different spells.
Per column inch, I think spells and feats add a lot more life to the game than new classes, subclasses and especially races.
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2020-11-21, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about
I agree. feats don't get love because they're "optional" despite even official play using it and I have no clue why spell doesn't get love. I think a focus on inner class option would be better. totem and maneuvers. but not all classes have them so there's that problem.
Have you accepted the Flying Spaghetti Monster as your Lord and Savior? If so, add this to your signature!
Beholders are just a meatball that fell out of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
my first game started on a pirate ship
Sorry for any spelling mistake
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2020-11-21, 03:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about
It does seem a little odd that Tasha's book specifically is lacking in the spell department considering the fluff behind her. Lots of little snippets about how cool+awesome magic is and then the actual spell selection she shows off leaves me a bit wanting.
Does feel a little harsh that I might not care if the book had a different lore characters name on it but hey-ho, such is life.
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2020-11-21, 03:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2013
Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about
But isn't that in part because of spell balance issues rather than spell number. There are a number of spells that are straight out superior to other options, so they become the obvious default choices. I'd rather they addressed balance issues with existing spells and cantrips in a book like Tasha's, rather than printing new spells 3.5E style. A spell list of 5000+ spells doesn't actually provide a lot of diversity in play when 1000 are so bad that no body uses them, 2000 are just worse-versions of other spells, and 100 spells break the power curve for utility and impact. In play you'll mostly see the 100 spells (and a smattering of the rest), because people are disincentised from picking objectively less-effective options.
Same thing for feats. Some of them suck pretty hard - so the actual list most people choose between is pretty small.
Plus rebalancing the spell/feat list is newbie friendly as it doesn't add to bloat and removes trap options that will contribute to them feeling inneffective.
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2020-11-21, 03:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about
I agree but we are talking about there being ideas you just can execute in dnd. acid draconic sorcerers are almost impossible. they have more support now but still lack spells in certain levels. When I say we need more spells I am focusing on this type of spell expantion.
Have you accepted the Flying Spaghetti Monster as your Lord and Savior? If so, add this to your signature!
Beholders are just a meatball that fell out of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
my first game started on a pirate ship
Sorry for any spelling mistake
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2020-11-21, 03:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-21, 03:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about
But this also applies to subclasses as well. I can count the number of frenzy barbarians, 4 elements monks, champion fighters that I have DMed for on the fingers of one head. Whatever it is people are choosing from they tend to pick the better option. Its true of any content. Yet still they release new subclasses.
I dont think that the issue of a characters spell list being too powerful is an issue either. Much like alternative class features, create some spells as alternatives. If there was a spell that was a explicit replacement for wall of force, as in you could have one or the other, then there wouldnt be much of a problem at all.
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2020-11-21, 04:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about
Have you accepted the Flying Spaghetti Monster as your Lord and Savior? If so, add this to your signature!
Beholders are just a meatball that fell out of the Flying Spaghetti Monster
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
my first game started on a pirate ship
Sorry for any spelling mistake
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2020-11-21, 04:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-21, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
Re: Tashas is Disappointing in a way i don't see people talking about
It's a rule in the new book that addresses your concern. I can play a sorcerer as any element and change the element with sorcery points to fill in the gaps.
I don't put too much stake on it being optional. Feats are optional and I've yet to see a game run without them.Last edited by sophontteks; 2020-11-21 at 05:02 PM.