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Thread: Unpopular D&D Opinions
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2021-10-21, 02:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular D&D Opinions
Yeah, exactly. Yucking someone's yum usually just puts them in a defensive stance and isn't useful.
Now, if it's a context where you're talking about various game systems and their pros and cons? Being purely positive isn't necessarily necessary. Though even then I find it more useful to discuss things from the frame of "it's good at X, but X isn't something I care about.""Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"
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2021-10-21, 03:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular D&D Opinions
Or even "I don't like how it does X; I prefer when that's implemented as Z". Phrasing it as an opinion or matter of taste makes a lot of difference, especially since 99.9% (warning, internet number!) of cases are just matters of preference and subjective judgement.
One thing I was taught about persuading people is to build on common ground. Start from where both sides agree and then build. Even if they have beliefs that you believe are wrong, it's more productive to try to show how they could benefit by accepting yours, rather than trying to break down those "false" beliefs.
Do I always practice this? No. I try, but am vulnerable to taking very dogmatic stances even when the data doesn't really bear that out or where doing so is not effective. It's something I'm working on. Mainly by not responding when I can feel the need to go all bulldog on something that doesn't really matter.Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!
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NIH System PDF Up to date main-branch build version.
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2021-10-21, 04:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular D&D Opinions
It was only meant as an aside on the paradox of being against (enforced) positivity being an inherently negative position; being against something is saying it's bad. No offense was intended, I apologize that it came across as an attack.
Case in point, starting with what came across negatively had you disengage with my point, which was my point. It's not saying only say positive things or else, it's saying that as a practical matter, it's easier to persuade someone with the positives of what you're advocating for. Negatives can very easily come across as an attack, which tends to have the opposite effect.
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2021-10-21, 06:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2008
Re: Unpopular D&D Opinions
Did we already see this unpopular opinion:
Player agency in RPGs is amongst the most overrated elements.
How about this one:
Player focus on optimization in RPGs is ironic (at least in the most common incorrect usage of the word).
I certainly believe the first, at least in the grand scope, and comedically believe the second.
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2021-10-22, 12:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular D&D Opinions
Was it Red Steel?
Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.
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2021-10-22, 01:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular D&D Opinions
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2021-10-22, 01:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular D&D Opinions
That one seems weird to me too, because IMX "player agency" correlates heavily with "fun".
Also given that I define Roleplaying as making in character decisions in the fantasy environment, IMX also correlates heavily heavily with "roleplaying". But that may be more a case of chicken and egg.Last edited by Tanarii; 2021-10-22 at 01:37 AM.
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2021-10-22, 08:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular D&D Opinions
I play crunch heavy games because puzzles, gambling and simulation are fun.
I engage in freeform RP because bouncing ideas off one another in a more formal arrangement is fun.
If I want a passive experience I’ll watch a movie or read a book. Watching game streams similarly ranks as a toilet activity. If I’m sitting down for tabletop it had better be more active and engaging than a #2.If all rules are suggestions what happens when I pass the save?
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2021-10-22, 09:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-10-22, 09:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular D&D Opinions
Big parties, like those in critical role or dimension 20 or any popular D&D cast, are boring and drag down the action. I can barely handle 4 players in my home game without getting confused, and I have to stay engaged or the game ends as I am the GM. I have no idea who 1/3 of the cast of critical role is, and I've watched a couple of episodes. Well, I sped through the fighting bits. Let Mercer describe how spooky the monsters are and watch some faces before the slog of too many people taking turns begins.
Didn't even make it to combat in dimension 20.yo
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2021-10-22, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular D&D Opinions
Honestly my problem with Critical Role was less the size of the party (although that doesn't help) and more the lack of editing. I'm still incredibly annoyed at the fact that we aren't going to get more Titansgraave, as the editing (especially of combat) helped keep the flow. Only good RPG show in my opinion.
Oh well, I still have my book. I can adapt it to Modern AGE and run it with some people who haven't seen it. Maybe we can come up with a decent conclusion.
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2021-10-22, 10:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular D&D Opinions
Homebrew Stuff:- Lemmy's Custom Weapon Generation System! - (D&D 3.X and PF)
Not all heroes wield scimitars, falchions and longbows! (I'm quite proud of this one ) - Lemmy's Homebrew Cauldron
You can find all my work here.
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2021-10-22, 10:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular D&D Opinions
Homebrew Stuff:- Lemmy's Custom Weapon Generation System! - (D&D 3.X and PF)
Not all heroes wield scimitars, falchions and longbows! (I'm quite proud of this one ) - Lemmy's Homebrew Cauldron
You can find all my work here.
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2021-10-22, 10:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2019
Re: Unpopular D&D Opinions
5e is popular, ubiquitous and also a really good RPG in its own right.
Hit points are a really good damage system, and there's a reason why they endure as RPG's with more "realistic" damage systems come and go.
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2021-10-22, 10:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-10-22, 10:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular D&D Opinions
While after thinking it over I can with great reluctance conclude your logically correct, I don't think I am capable of being that diplomatic. I admit do much the same by trying to not respond to things when it wouldn't benefit me. Though I think there is more people in this world than just me that needs to learn to find common ground. Its a surprisingly rare quality in my experience.
However I can't take it to heart. I know the moment I try to actually follow and apply this elsewhere, somewhere else on the forum someone else will tell me the view you just told me is wrong for their reasons, I won't care enough to remember yours, and end up just feeling frustrated at the general muddled subjectivity of humanity again and just go back to believing what I currently believe to hold firm to something at all, so I might as well not even try, and save myself a lot of trouble by not attempting to please anyone whose interaction with mainly consist of debates on things we don't see eye to eye on.
I accept your apology.
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2021-10-22, 11:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular D&D Opinions
On the other hand, there is nothing inherently wrong with a death spiral. Issues generally come from not giving a big enough buffer, and forcing characters suffering significant penalties to continue on. If you're damaged enough to be taking penalties you should probably be avoiding battle.
On other words, CofD did the death spiral much better than oWoD did (penalties only kick in if you're going your last few health boxes, and most supernaturals have at least a limited ability to get better once they leave combat).
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2021-10-22, 01:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular D&D Opinions
I think so. That surely looks familiar.
I prefer the Economist for that version of quality time.
Yes, it is a good RPG. And there are others.
Yes. Only do battle when you have set the conditions for success. (Sun Tzu, badly paraphrased).Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2021-10-22, 02:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2015
Re: Unpopular D&D Opinions
I’m also interested in this. Would like to hear more.
On the whole I’d say I disagree, player agency is very important. That said, some recent discussion here in the playground made me think and conclude it’s not quite as important as I thought. Specifically, it’s not the core thing that’s at issue when we think about “railroading”.
But if your point is that railroading is good actually, then I CERTAINLY disagree.
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2021-10-22, 03:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular D&D Opinions
And that's great for grittier games than D&D. Hit points work perfectly for the heroic fantasy of D&D--they're very simple to keep track of, you have a rough idea of how long you can stay in the fight unless something unexpected happens, there's a lot of room to interpret what a hit actually means, and they give the thrill of being near defeat without also becoming worse at what you do, encouraging going on the attack to drop your opponent before they take you out.
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2021-10-22, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-10-22, 03:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2008
Re: Unpopular D&D Opinions
I admit this was a bit of a leading statement, but let me try to explain.
Quick background: Began with AD&D in 1983, played a very wide range of games actively through probably 2010. Broad sampling - probably played 30 - 40 different systems- in an array of settings (home, store, convention, etc), but the vast majority has been in-person with a social component (not necessarily friends, but people that I was interested in spending time with). Have not played anything regularly in the last 5 years. That may have relevance.
For the last few years (maybe more), I have seen loud statements about player agency, the terrible evils of "railroading", and the horrible Quantum Ogre. I believe these to be linked, and are all a matter of degree (of course), but I think perhaps it is the quantum ogre that is the biggest stimulus on this issue. My perspective is that there exists at least a loud-enough-for-me-to-hear group that feels no decision, situation or action should involve their character without expressed choice and permission, and that every action taken by their character should lead to a unique set of outcomes.
In general, I believe part of the social contract of RPGs involves ceding some level of individual agency to the group, both GM and other players, to support the enjoyment of a shared experience. I believe that I should have agency for the major decisions, pivotal actions, mechanical development, etc., within the scope of limitations established for the specific group in the specific game. However, I also believe that the best games I have played involve a level of trust that some degree of agency can/should be ceded to further the experience of the group. To whit, I will advocate biting the adventure hook, or accepting the in media res of starting a story in the clutches of the evil bads/finding ourselves in a dark alleyway by the docks/waking on a ship about to make the jump through the wormhole to the Delta Quadrant...because I trust and believe that the GM is making that decision for the good of the experience.
I will, of course, expect to be able to make the decision to slay the dragon or let her eat the kidnapped prince, to choose not to follow the dictates of the Hobbit evil overlord, or to abandon my Quest for the Holey Quail.
If I know about the ogre outside of town, and that he's watching the western gate...and choose to go out the eastern gate hidden in a barrel of fish, I may well be displeased that the ogre is suddenly on the eastern road...but if we are none the wiser and the GM has planned a ogre/griffin/gibbering mouther encounter that will occur on the Old Towne Road while transiting from Nowhere Hamlet to Bigcityville, I have precisely zero issue with that encounter falling on us even if we chose New Towne Path instead of Old Towne Road.
An extreme definition of player agency (I control every facet of everything regarding my character, and my actions must always carry consequences unique to those choices, regardless of the benefit to the game as a whole) has been put forth as vital/most important. It is that kind of "agency" I mean when I say player agency is overrated...there are times when that degree of expectation on the part of the players is, to me, perhaps selfish (? - need better word here) and lessens the value of the experience for the group.
There are lines not to be crossed, there are lines that should only be crossed sometimes, and there are things that I will always cede to the experience, at least until I know that I cannot trust that GM to "play fair" with my agency...and that's not likely to lead to a continued experience. I think there's even a difference between player agency at the table and between sessions.
tl;dr: Quantum ogres are fine. Starting the story on the path to King Blobb's Mines even if we didn't play out the mission acceptance is fine. Destroying everything my character worked for on a whim, not fine. Making my character take actions demonstrably and directly opposed to my paradigm, not fine. Agency is important, but it isn't the most important thing in the game.
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Saw this after:
Some degree of what I believe many people think of as railroading may be acceptable, and potentially even good...but the classic perjorative use (to me: single solution to adventures, GM drives everything and players just roll dice, can never turn away from the scripted plot) is a loud no. I advocate for hopping on and off the train as the group wills, and that the train is only transport to the start of the new story.Last edited by Mordar; 2021-10-22 at 03:47 PM.
No matter where you go...there you are!
Holhokki Tapio - GitP Blood Bowl New Era Season I Champion
Togashi Ishi - Betrayal at the White Temple
Da Monsters of Da Midden - GitP Blood Bowl Manager Cup Season V-VI-VII
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2021-10-22, 03:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular D&D Opinions
Thats not really a quantum ogre.
When it's a quantum ogre is if there are three roads to different destinations, and one is an ogre encounter and another a tougher giant encounter and the third you find the mcguffin, and regardless of which ones you choose the ogre encounter is first, the giant second encounter, then you find the mcguffin on the third.
And that really does make informed player decision making pointless. I mean, if they chose them effectively at random, they already ceded player agency in the first place. But a quantum ogre assumes no way /precludes any way for them to get the information to make an informed player decision.
Also usually when I've heard it discussed player agency is being discussed at the team level. Not at the level of "you don't get to tell me what my character says/does/feels/thinks" level. That's a whole other barrel of worms.Last edited by Tanarii; 2021-10-22 at 03:53 PM.
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2021-10-22, 03:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular D&D Opinions
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2021-10-22, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular D&D Opinions
Oh I wasn't saying that one should be added to D&D, or any game in particular. While I think the can work in heroic fantasy games their main advantage is providing an incentive to retest before dying.
To me, even in a heroic gateway, combat should be dangerous. It's something you do not because there's an orc in a 10ft by 10ft room. You initiate combat because you're hungry, the orc has pie, and not being hungry is more important to you then not dying (replace pie and hunger with any relevant MacGuffin and emotion). My favourite part of Unknown Armies is that it's combat chapter opens with six ways to avoid a fight because sometimes you don't want the shineys that badly.
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2021-10-22, 04:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular D&D Opinions
And allows for the very Fantasy Adventure archetypes of the meat wall and the "berserker" (ie charges into battle, laughs at his own wounds), as well as all the associated archetypes. Because if there's a death spiral, charging into battle like that and trying to draw the attention to yourself is, well, stupid and unlikely to give you a lifespan longer than a few battles. The archetype of the guy shrugging off attacks and face-tanking a dragon's attacks with armor or steely muscles is one with a deeply-embedded memetic complex in fantasy.
Different "feels" need different mechanics, especially around things how and when battle should be engaged in.Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!
NIH system 5e fork, very much WIP. Base github repo.
NIH System PDF Up to date main-branch build version.
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2021-10-22, 05:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-10-22, 05:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular D&D Opinions
Ok we roughly agree. It occurred to me during the recent big thread about railroading on here that loss player agency is a core part of how most RPGs work - it happens every time you fail a dice roll, after all - and not really the problem with railroading (which I just define as a linear narrative structure that the GM enforces).
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2021-10-22, 05:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular D&D Opinions
To be fair to large groups, they can work for rotational play. So you'll (almost) never have all nine players in the room, more often it'll just be the four who turned up.
It's not how I like to play, but it's not for me to judge.
Me, I prefer the standard model where you presume that everybody will make the session, although I'm also getting interested in having multiple characters per player. Mostly in the troupe play model where everybody can wear different hats but the GM had the most, but also in other ways (such as Wraith's Shadowguide idea, or having the players all be gentry and a different character's primary servant).
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2021-10-22, 06:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Unpopular D&D Opinions