OOTS #1188 - The Discussion Thread

[bunsen_h]

I like the first sentence, not the second so much.

I agree with you, in fact. I couldn't think of a way to express something like it that wouldn't put any implied pressure on Inkyrius to reciprocate, but I think it's appropriate for V to say something to make clear that they hadn't just dropped all of the emotions of the relationship -- that they hadn't retreated further into the purely-academic mode that was the core of the relationship failure.

[factotum]

I wouldn't be surprised if Rich had worked all of that out in detail, to get the sun's position correct in the strip.

Conversely, I wouldn't be surprised if Rich put the sun in the West because it's setting and was done with it, since all that stuff about axial tilt and time of year are utterly irrelevant to the story.

[Peelee]

I agree with you, in fact. I couldn't think of a way to express something like it that wouldn't put any implied pressure on Inkyrius to reciprocate, but I think it's appropriate for V to say something to make clear that they hadn't just dropped all of the emotions of the relationship -- that they hadn't retreated further into the purely-academic mode that was the core of the relationship failure.

Heck, the main reason I didn't try my hand at coming up with a way to close it was pretty similar, I couldn't think of a way to do it! Because I'm completely on board with your train of thought there.

[Ekul]

I agree with you, in fact. I couldn't think of a way to express something like it that wouldn't put any implied pressure on Inkyrius to reciprocate, but I think it's appropriate for V to say something to make clear that they hadn't just dropped all of the emotions of the relationship -- that they hadn't retreated further into the purely-academic mode that was the core of the relationship failure.

It's important to remember that Inkyrius never claimed V is completely unloving, merely that V loved their magic more than their partner. Any contrition that V could muster ought to address that, either conceding that it's true, or that it was a mistake to focus on their magic to such an extreme.

Essentially, I don't think it's in question that V loves their family. The question is, are they willing to put their own selfish pursuits of power aside for the sake of their family?

[RatElemental]

"I was an arrogant fool, did a terrible thing, and am more sorry than I could say in countless words. But I only get Twenty-five." Maybe?

I'd probably go with something more like:
"Words cannot express how sorry I am. I do not expect forgiveness, just be safe: world at stake. My mentor may be able to help."

[Peelee]

"Words cannot express how sorry I am. I do not expect forgiveness, just be safe: world at stake. My mentor may be able to help."

Oooohh, I like that one.

[Doug Lampert]

"I was an arrogant fool, did a terrible thing, and am more sorry than I could say in countless words. Love and miss you terribly." No wait for a reply.

I like the first sentence, not the second so much.

Ditto on both. "Love and miss you terribly" sounds like a plea to be forgiven or taken back.

I'd probably go with something more like:
"Words cannot express how sorry I am. I do not expect forgiveness, just be safe: world at stake. My mentor may be able to help."

Better. I might go with:

"I am so sorry. You were right. Have a good life and take care of the children. World at risk, please talk to my mentor."

Then you need to send to the mentor too. You can save a word by remembering the mentor's name.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Tarquin made a significant contribution to saving the world by giving the Order help, including a flying carpet. If Nale had killed Tarquin just then, would he have been Neutral because his last acts were helping to save the world?

Belkar isn't in this to save the world. At best, he wants the world to not end. That's as noble as Xykon (who, I should point out, literally said he didn't want the world to end). I'll be saving the party poppers.

First of all, those are false equivalencies. Tarquin helped them, while also fighting to destroy their team right after. Belkar on the other hand has done nothing but help. Not wanting the world to end might be "just as noble as Xykon" but that's like saying the worst person ever didn't want the world to end and therefore some kid who doesn't want the world to end is as bad as them... Xykon is actively trying to RULE the world, and Belkar is taking steps that are SAVING it from Xykon AND whoever wants to destroy it, these steps including having Elan remind him of the plot.

No, he's actively doing what he wants to, and it just so happens to align with something that's good. If I fired three shots into a crowd and the bullets all hit people who were kidnapping a child and attempting to kill the parents, would you argue that i was actively doing good, or that I just got damned lucky?

Is he? He's doing what he wants to... For a good purpose. He got the protection from evil charm, even though it hurt him. He got the feather fall thing so he could survive a very possible situation that could happen in the course of doing good things. He had a casual conversation with V about his new dagger, which he wants to use to kill an Evil Vampire. Just because no one else knew Greg was Evil doesn't mean he wasn't doing an inherently Good thing.

And here's another false equivalency: him seeing an Evil individual and taking steps to defeat them soundly, and you shooting entirely randomly into a crowd, are not equal. You don't know there's anyone evil in the crowd. You're just being CE. Belkar has killed no one by accident (hard to do with melee weapons) and especially not anyone Good.

No, I'm pretty much objecting to people saying Belkar is CN. I am in spirit objecting that he's definitely going to be redeemed/on the road to redemption, almost entirely because he doesn't give a hoot about it and if he doesn't why the hell should I (or anyone else, for that matter)? Redemption should go to people who actually want it. But I realize that is unlikely given all of the foreshadowing (such as his speech on how people change gradually, or the clasp which can super easily indicate that he's no longer Evil). It's mostly me voicing how I'm not terribly thrilled with how it looks like Belkar's story is going to go, especially since we have a paladin saying directly to someone that did want redemption and was trying (albeit in a severely misguided way) that redemption is a rare and special thing. How rare and special is it when some jackhole who doesn't even care about it can just stumble across it?

He apparently gives a hoot about it through the conversations he's had this book. And his lamenting of Durkon's death, it's obviously something he regrets if he fake-blames Durkon for it. He cares and is trying.

I say he's on the road to N. Not saying he's there already, hel no, he's still hurt by the charm, isn't he? Not saying he'll ever get there, not before his death, but given his actions leading up to it he's not going to go to the CE afterlife. He's going to go to Neutral, or Chaotic Good, and everyone is going to cry at his grave, not just Elan. And that makes a pretty good story, I feel like. What I do agree with is that his change would add very little to the story.

[Epinephrine_Syn]

Author doesn't explicitly follow D&D, and Haley did kill Crystal. What other multiclass would make sense for a rogue looking to become more proficient with a short blade? Or is that more of a skill/feat that can be picked up? I don't know all the fiddly details of these things.

Dashing Swordsman? I feel a little weird because everyone's talking as if the answer isn't "she's also taking a level in this prestige class", and I (up to now) thought that was the glaringly obvious answer.

Haley already has a propensity for puns and banter during combat, a high charisma score, and a boyfriend who can enable her/be enabled by her wordplay combos.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Dashing Swordsman? I feel a little weird because everyone's talking as if the answer isn't "she's also taking a level in this prestige class", and I (up to now) thought that was the glaringly obvious answer.

Haley already has a propensity for puns and banter during combat, a high charisma score, and a boyfriend who can enable her/be enabled by her wordplay combos.

She might have high Charisma, but the Dagger already uses Dexterity, which she seems to have a lot of with her bow. I don't see her punning that much against per possible repertoire of opponents with that dagger, Oona and a few Bugbears.

[Schroeswald]

She might have high Charisma, but the Dagger already uses Dexterity, which she seems to have a lot of with her bow. I don't see her punning that much against per possible repertoire of opponents with that dagger, Oona and a few Bugbears.

Also it requires a rapier, which Haley isn’t using.

[D.One]

She might have high Charisma, but the Dagger already uses Dexterity, which she seems to have a lot of with her bow. I don't see her punning that much against per possible repertoire of opponents with that dagger, Oona and a few Bugbears.

"We have a couple of sharp words for you!"

Also it requires a rapier, which Haley isn’t using.

huh... Dashing Knifewoman?



PS: I don't really think Haley is trying to get Dashing Swordsman or any equivalent, but I'm a bit puzzled by this scene, because, if it was just her getting more familiarity with melee fighting, I should point out that she's already quite effective with that (last panel).

[RatElemental]

Obviously Haley is taking a level in the here-to-fore unmentioned prestige class known as "Noble Scoundrel." It grants access to the much coveted "Trick up my sleeve" class ability that does whatever the plot needs it to do at the time.

[Epinephrine_Syn]

Also it requires a rapier, which Haley isn’t using.

Technically it doesn't say only when using a rapier. He could just be saying that because it's the most traditional weapon for dashing swordsmen and they both use rapiers, and the charisma benefit applies to all one handed piercing melee weapons. I admit it does significantly lower the odds of it being this overall though. I'd still put some bet on it being something from that obscure book though, even if it's not exactly dashing swordsman.

(The dashing swordspair concept has narrative potential, at least.)

[Themrys]

I strongly suspect the recipient of the Sending to be the next comic's cliffhanger. Either A: the recipient is dead/incapacitated or B: somehow it's intercepted/ too late. The Airship runs at the Speed of Plot so they'll show up AS Xykon realizes the gate is underneath him and not behind one of the doors.

I didn't want to give the Giant ideas, but since you mention it anyways: The Evil guys (you know who, forgot what they're called) could use the time V owes them at just that exact moment and make V send something entirely different from what V intended.

That makes it unlikely V is contacting Inky and the kids. Messing up V's private life may be fun for some Evil guys, but they seem to have a secret plan that's much more important to them.


Or perhaps the Sending works perfectly and V is indeed contacting Inky. After all, V could have learnt from Hilgya's example and have decided to show a bit more emotion. (I know people hate her, but come on, she devoted years of her life to finding Durkon and then wasted two spells on making sure he understands how much he hurt her - that's probably more passion than V has shown in the entirety of time Inky and V were happily married. Whatever Durkon thinks of her reaction, he certainly can't complain that she doesn't seem to care. Plus, Hilgya demonstrated it is totally possible to 'solve' relationship problems with magic, an approach that might have inspired V to use a (much less offensive) spell to tackle V's marriage problems.)

It is interesting to contrast the way V and Hilgya deal with emotions. They react pretty much the same when it comes to anger (and both have a habit of using excessive violence), but while Hilgya is very emotional in other ways, too, V seems to not strongly express any other emotion besides anger. (And guilt, perhaps, but that was genocide level guilt and V ran away, possibly so the others would not witness this emotional outbreak)

Could reflect their religions - V doesn't talk about religion often, but did mention some ancient elven gods of knowledge who likely approve of V's decisions to go save the world instead of making up with Inky, while Loki approves of using fire as default approach to any problem.

(Interestingly, the way Durkon deals with his love life ALSO reflects his belief ... impregnating a woman and then leaving her does sound like something Thor would do. For entirely different reasons, but still. Interesting coincidence. Unlike V and Hilgya, I don't think the author intended it in his case.)

[Petrocorus]

"I was an arrogant fool, did a terrible thing, and am more sorry than I could say in countless words. Love and miss you terribly." No wait for a reply.

I wouldn't remember this. I read all the novels in French and honestly A Civil Campaign is not my favorite one.

If we assume that the Mechane is flying directly left-to-right across the page and is heading due north, then our viewpoint is looking directly west. That puts the sun at sunset, slightly left of centre in the panel, at a little bit south of west. But just at this moment, the 3D relationship between that, the time of year, the Mechane's latitude, and the axial tilt is beyond me. I don't have a sextant (nor any of the sort-of homophones). I wouldn't be surprised if Rich had worked all of that out in detail, to get the sun's position correct in the strip.

The ship is going from left to right while the sunlight is going west to "east", "east" actually being the viewer. So the direction of the sunlight from the page to the reader is perpendicular to the direction of the shuip from left to right. This is how understand it.

Or perhaps the Sending works .....intended it in his case.)

Did we not already had this debate about Hilgya and Durkon like 2 or 3 thread ago?

[Quizatzhaderac]

[ETA:] Re: the comic's title, I'm getting a bit of a headache trying to figure out the relationship between the world's unknown axial tilt, the ship's known course directly northwards, the time of year, and the sun being on the horizon (presumably sunset).

West isn't actually defined outside of the Earth. To generalize I'd say it's the opposite direction that the planet is spinning. So therefore the sun/moon / stars/ et cetra always set in the "west".

Although, both east and west are perpendicular to the north under basically any scheme to use those words.

If I had to guess everything from the comic, I'd say it's mid afternoon (on the equator) and the sun is setting in the southwestern sky (the sun starts to appear further south the more north you are).

[Frozenstep]

Something that surprised me was that Vaarsuvius apparently can cast Sending. I did not know they could do that.

For a wizard, it's just a matter of knowing the spell. We've already seen V cast it before.

[Dion]

Conversely, I wouldn't be surprised if Rich put the sun in the West because it's setting and was done with it, since all that stuff about axial tilt and time of year are utterly irrelevant to the story.

Hey, that reminds me!

I remember a GRRM interview where he promised to explain the screwy winter thing going on in his world.

Did anyone ever bother to actually do that?

[Coventry]

I think V is Sending to Inkyrius.

"Taking care of what needs to be done" suggests that V is sending to Hin'jo.

But a small part of my brain keeps shouting, "If V really is exhibiting character growth, what about sending to Aardinarius?"

V's old master of the arcane would certainly be able to cover for V the next time V gets whisked away by the deal he made with the I.F.C.C.

[Ghosty]

Hey, that reminds me!

I remember a GRRM interview where he promised to explain the screwy winter thing going on in his world.

Did anyone ever bother to actually do that?

LOL. 'They forgot.' Seemed to explain a lot of their editorial decisions when the book material ran out.

About factotum's point, I'd argue it does matter, if length of day had anything to do with the plot. They're far enough north, near enough to the time of the Solstice, that I'm surprised they have any daylight at all. There are authors, a lot of them in the hard sci-fi realm, that famously stress a lot about world-creation questions like those. Then again, for many of them, their settings are better fleshed out and have better developed characterization than their actual characters...

For the Giant, OTOH, he doesn't need the setting to tell the story, and so I think factotum's interpretation is more likely.

I had thought Stickworld and its New Year mirrored our world, and thus we could get a clue about how long Belkar has left, but you all have thoroughly explained already that Azure City's, and therefore the Oracle's, New Year, has nothing to do with the North's Winter Solstice. Which gives the Giant a bit of wiggle room concerning when he kills him.

[Squire Doodad]

"Taking care of what needs to be done" suggests that V is sending to Hin'jo.

But a small part of my brain keeps shouting, "If V really is exhibiting character growth, what about sending to Aardinarius?"

V's old master of the arcane would certainly be able to cover for V the next time V gets whisked away by the deal he made with the I.F.C.C.

Aardi is going to do 50 shots of Greater Teleport and warp right to the airship by tomorrow.

Actually, how far would you guys say the northish half of the Western continent would be from the North Pole? I don't know where Ivyleaf is in particular, but would a high level mage be able to teleport their way there in 3 days?

[RatElemental]

Aardi is going to do 50 shots of Greater Teleport and warp right to the airship by tomorrow.

Actually, how far would you guys say the northish half of the Western continent would be from the North Pole? I don't know where Ivyleaf is in particular, but would a high level mage be able to teleport their way there in 3 days?

Depends on how high level. A 13th level wizard could do it regardless of distances involved though and in less than 6 seconds. A 9th level wizard could circumnavigate the earth in 12 seconds as long as they have 20 intelligence, and a 10th could do it as long as they have 15 int.

There's a lot of reasons V banned conjuration, and many of them aren't in character ones.

[Vendanna]

Aardi is going to do 50 shots of Greater Teleport and warp right to the airship by tomorrow.

Actually, how far would you guys say the northish half of the Western continent would be from the North Pole? I don't know where Ivyleaf is in particular, but would a high level mage be able to teleport their way there in 3 days?

A high level mage can travel fast quite (it can planeshift to other plane then planeshift somewhere in the north pole) if you don't worry about where you spawn. you can also use a wish if you need to be in an exact point without error (dunno if limited wish can accomplish that).

you can also buy a ton of low level scrolls to reach there, or get your cleric friend to cast wind walk, or other means to reach there) heck if you can cast gate, you can also use planar ally to ask someone to give you a ride to your destination (like sabine did) which would be quite easy to get in this situation when the safety of the entire world is pending on a simple teleport.

[137beth]

I'd say that the "up a level, down a level" page is one of the early ones that does hold up reasonably well. Even if you aren't familiar with D&D 3.5, the different meanings of "level" are commonly used both in later iterations of D&D and in video games. The conflicting meanings of "spell" used in strip 12 are also understandable even to someone who isn't familiar with D&D.

[Squire Doodad]

A high level mage can travel fast quite (it can planeshift to other plane then planeshift somewhere in the north pole) if you don't worry about where you spawn. you can also use a wish if you need to be in an exact point without error (dunno if limited wish can accomplish that).

you can also buy a ton of low level scrolls to reach there, or get your cleric friend to cast wind walk, or other means to reach there) heck if you can cast gate, you can also use planar ally to ask someone to give you a ride to your destination (like sabine did) which would be quite easy to get in this situation when the safety of the entire world is pending on a simple teleport.

So two rounds of plane shift, and that leaves you within a few rounds of greater teleport. If you have enough slots to do 2 PS and at least one GT (plus maybe a compass/something to let you know where you are), you can go anywhere in the world.

[RatElemental]

So two rounds of plane shift, and that leaves you within a few rounds of greater teleport. If you have enough slots to do 2 PS and at least one GT (plus maybe a compass/something to let you know where you are), you can go anywhere in the world.

If you can cast greater teleport at all you don't need plane shift. You can be anywhere in the world with just greater teleport.

[Mariele]

I take offense at this page. The up a level/down a level/spell level gag was priceless. ;) I still love the early humor!

Can't wait for Monday. That'll definitely soften the dread that comes with the end of Thanksgiving break.

[factotum]

PS: I don't really think Haley is trying to get Dashing Swordsman or any equivalent, but I'm a bit puzzled by this scene, because, if it was just her getting more familiarity with melee fighting, I should point out that she's already quite effective with that (last panel).

Note what she's saying in that panel--despite the multiple ghost images, that was just a single Sneak Attack. She still gets the bonuses from that whether she's using a bow or a melee weapon, but it only works when (as in that case) the target is distracted by someone else--in a straight up face-to-face fight she can't use it, and so practice would be required.

[Kardwill]

"Better" in what sense? Because I'm arguing its not better in the "Good-Evil" sense, which is where redemption would come into play. Dream Shojo told Belkar to play the game or they'd boot him from the table. That doesn't equate to "don't be Evil."

He's taking other people's lives more seriously (even if he's still callous toward their feelings), occasionaly feels guilt, actively restrains himself from doing stuff that would be fun but "feel wrong". And I don't remember him actively doing evil stuff for a long time (since their departure from the empire of blood?), some murderhoboing that Haley, V and Roy also partake in. For several books, his "evil" has mostly been hollow bluster and callous jokes.

Caring about other peoples or pets doesn't mean that you're a parangon of Goodness and Pretty Flowers (tm), and he's still south of the alignment chart, but he's definitely getting less eeeeeevil.

Doesn't mean he's working toward a redemption. There's a difference between "stop being evil" and "make reparation for what you did"