Test of Spite [D&D 3.5]

[Doc Roc]

Not sure. A friend from RL, and maybe two or three other people here.
1000 posts of spite. :)

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I never got a dungeon.

[Doc Roc]

You will, young jedi! You will!

[JeminiZero]

Since the Dungeon of Spite is more like a traditional Dungeon, you could divide all the characters up into traditional parties. That way you will have fewer instances with more people each, who are better able to tackle the challenges.

[ex cathedra]

1000 posts of spite. :)

I feel so full of hate and loathing!

[Doc Roc]

I've been pairing people off, so far, but I've been worried that larger parties will slow to a crawl then implode.

Pharoah, would you be okay going in with 9mm or Ae?

Who all currently needs a dungeon entrance?

[ex cathedra]

Ae? That one guy already paired with Olo?

Anyways, we have like 6-8 people with/needing an entrance, as far as I've gathered.

I agree that 2-person parties are probably optimal. Going solo is just too rough, and the two-person parties are going somewhat slowly, anyways... I can imagine that three and four-person groups would be more difficult.

[Doc Roc]

I believe it's around six. Well, Step right up, one and many, step right up!

[Signmaker]

Awaiting answer on Spellstaff question. For reiteration: if one has access to it, can one have a quarterstaff pre-stored with a spell before ToS starts?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I have the worst luck with dice in Test of Spite.

[ex cathedra]

I'm still somewhat impressed at how well my character saved against Saph's save-or-suck mage. I made the vast majority of my saving throws, with ~50% failure chances on several of them.

[Doc Roc]

Awaiting answer on Spellstaff question. For reiteration: if one has access to it, can one have a quarterstaff pre-stored with a spell before ToS starts?

Source for the spellstaff?
But beyond that, yes.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

It's an underused core druid spell.

[9mm]

I'm cool with being paired up (character works better that way) with anybody for the dungeon proper, just show me the entrance.

[Talic]

It's an underused core druid spell.

Indeed. Great to put a spell you really want to have, but won't use often enough to memorize every day.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Alright, Tide, I'm ready to go on in the ToS after my Mirror Images critically failed to protect me from anything.

The dice are out to get me, apparently.

[Signmaker]

I'm currently looking for a PrC that might help out my druid a bit. Because of the...nature of my druid, most animal companion-based PrCs aren't options, which basically leaves spellcasting (wildshape is right out). Any particular PrCs I should peruse?

[Oslecamo]

I have the worst luck with dice in Test of Spite.

Actually, you didn't have much chances to begin with. Like the other player pointed out, with four attacks the probability of hiting the real caster is actually quite decent, and then blinck doesn't offer that much protection.

Unless your character was able to whitstand more than one of those blows, you always were in serious risk. He overkilled you with all those 1s, but he didn't really need them all to win.

And that kids is why casters keep an abrupt jaunt or two just in case.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

I'm still somewhat impressed at how well my character saved against Saph's save-or-suck mage. I made the vast majority of my saving throws, with ~50% failure chances on several of them.

I'm impressed at how bad my character saved against Talic's character. I failed the first one with about 10% failure rate.

btw are Bracers of Armor affected by oil of Greater Magic Vestments? if not, do they affect regular clothes.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Actually, you didn't have much chances to begin with. Like the other player pointed out, with four attacks the probability of hiting the real caster is actually quite decent, and then blinck doesn't offer that much protection.

Unless your character was able to whitstand more than one of those blows, you always were in serious risk. He overkilled you with all those 1s, but he didn't really need them all to win.

And that kids is why casters keep an abrupt jaunt or two just in case.

When you figure out a means of giving sorcerers Abrupt Jaunt give me a call.

[JeminiZero]

I am generating Touchsight, to a range of 70 feet. If you are within 70 feet of E11, I can detect what square you're in, without a spot or listen check. Let me know if this is the case.


Speaking of which, how does Touchsight interact with Darkstalker?

[Doc Roc]

Where is touchsight from again? I remember seeing it very recently... psionic ability of some flavor?

Ah, ardent.

[JeminiZero]

Touchsight (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Touchsight) is a psionic power.

[ex cathedra]

Speaking of which, how does Touchsight interact with Darkstalker?

Darkstalker evades Blindsight, Blindsense, Scent, and Tremorsense, not the rarer types like Touchsight and Mindsight.

[Saph]

Actually, you didn't have much chances to begin with. Like the other player pointed out, with four attacks the probability of hiting the real caster is actually quite decent, and then blinck doesn't offer that much protection.

Unless your character was able to whitstand more than one of those blows, you always were in serious risk. He overkilled you with all those 1s, but he didn't really need them all to win.

Eight targets and four attacks made it a 50% probability that he'd pick the right target on the first full attack. Blink gave it another 50% chance of missing.

So, 25% chance of getting through both defences in one round. Not outside the realms of possibility, but Pharaoh was a little unlucky in this one.

- Saph

Edit: Oh, and I've got another character I'd like to try out in a practice duel, if anyone's currently free.

[ex cathedra]

Another? Quick, aren't you? I've been considering an RKV build recently, but I've got nothing so far.

[JeminiZero]

Saph must have a lot of free time in China :smalltongue:

[Saph]

Well, there's only so many tourist sites you can see, and being several thousand miles from all your friends puts kind of a damper on your social circle.

- Saph

[ex cathedra]

Ah, understandably. That's too bad. If you don't mind my asking, why are you traveling in China, anyways? What's your country of origin? The entire affair seems quite interesting.

Anyways, I'm looking for a place to find comprehensive lists of deities and their domains. The amount of new domains that have been added has made most of the original sources on domains, it seems, quite out-dated. Any ideas?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Well, there's only so many tourist sites you can see, and being several thousand miles from all your friends puts kind of a damper on your social circle.

- Saph
I can recommend a few bars around San Li Tun (Tuer)...

[Saph]

I was working as a teacher for a while in Anhui province. The term's over, now, though, so I'm travelling for a little while before flying back home to England. In Hangzhou at the moment, and I'll be going on to Xiamen later.

There's a total solar eclipse tomorrow, which a lot of people have come to this part of China to see, but the weather forecast is for thunderstorms all day. :smalltongue:

- Saph

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I have relatives in Anhui, though I have never been there personally.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Sure, i'll face you. Make the thread when you're ready, unless you want me to.

Why don't you go ahead and make the thread -- I'm not quite sure which subforum of the PbP games board to stick it in.

[ex cathedra]

All in-character games are generally posted in the Ongoing Games section.

[Mushroom Ninja]

All in-character games are generally posted in the Ongoing Games section.

Oh. I guess that makes sense. What about the "Alpha" "Beta" and "Gamma" subdivisions?

EDIT: Nevermind, they merged those, didn't they...

[ex cathedra]

They were merged. This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=13) is where all in-character play by post games go. :smallredface:

[Talic]

In all fairness, Sharnian, you were going against the AC 29 construct that outmatched you physically, rather than trying to lure me out.

My alternate action would have been:

Move to 15 feet away.
Manifest Swarm of Crystals, Augmented to 15pp (Overchannel + Talented to ML 15). 15d4 slashing damage, no save.
Schism: Manifest Swarm of crystals, augmented to 8pp (12th LM - 8 for schism + 4 practiced manifester = ML 8). 8d4 slashing damage, no save.

Immediate action: Anticipatory strike. Get another turn.
Repeat the above, except take 3d8 damage instead of using talented.

Total slashing damage: 46d4 (avg: 115 damage)
Total PP spent: 53

Then the construct could have done another pair of 1d8+14 attacks, along with the 3d6 no save concussion blast. (average 37 from attacks, 10.5 from power)

Total Average: 162.5 damage.

I had direct damage, save or suck, and various other things. High ML and augmenting gets around the weakness of dual progression, and the wizard spells give me versatility.

[T.G. Oskar]

Well, here's awaiting for Tide's approval. Sent him character with the items (though, I can't seem to make an account on Mythweavers, so I'm sending the build and the list via e-mail through Excel and Word)

All I'd ask would be: how much HP? Rolled or average?

Just in case, as I think I explained in first instance, it's one half of a general PsiMonk build I'm doing. Managed to work getting a Githzerai for it, and through LA buildup it should be ECL 11 (so it's actually 2 levels behind) Not expecting it to win, but at least give a decent battle.

Also: might stay mostly for the PvP. Unless it gets quite successful, in which case I might attempt a dungeon.

[Talic]

Standard rules for creating characters above 1st level are Max HP for level 1, and average HP for every level after 1 (round down)

So, a level 13 wizard would have:
4 hp at level 1 + 24 HP for levels 2-13 (2 per level) + Con modifierx13.

So if he has a Con of 14, that's 54 HP.

[T.G. Oskar]

Standard rules for creating characters above 1st level are Max HP for level 1, and average HP for every level after 1 (round down)

So, a level 13 wizard would have:
4 hp at level 1 + 24 HP for levels 2-13 (2 per level) + Con modifierx13.

So if he has a Con of 14, that's 54 HP.

Thanks for that. Although...IIRC, isn't the recommended replacement when trying to get an average for a dice-based roll something along the lines of half maximum die plus .5? Which it would turn into 2 on even levels, 3 on odd levels in the earlier case.

In either case, I'll await Tide's response on the matter.

[Talic]

Thanks for that. Although...IIRC, isn't the recommended replacement when trying to get an average for a dice-based roll something along the lines of half maximum die plus .5? Which it would turn into 2 on even levels, 3 on odd levels in the earlier case.

In either case, I'll await Tide's response on the matter.

For the actual average, yes.

With levels, each die roll for HP for your levels is a discrete roll; i.e. They're each made independently of each other.

So the average for a D4 is 2.5. The default rule for rounding in D&D is always round down. 2.5, rounded down, is 2.

When you average 2d6 for sneak attack, it's 7. When averaging 2d6 for levels 2 and 3 for rogue hp, it's 6. Because each die roll is seperate for HP, while the two die rolls for sneak are added together before rounding for the first.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Alright, the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118922) is up for me vs. melamoto.

[Oslecamo]

When you figure out a means of giving sorcerers Abrupt Jaunt give me a call.

Wizard 1 level dip duh! :smalltongue:

[JeminiZero]

This wasn't covered in the long list of rules in the front. But how are Favored Class/Multiclass penalties being handled?

[Melamoto]

Eight targets and four attacks made it a 50% probability that he'd pick the right target on the first full attack. Blink gave it another 50% chance of missing.

So, 25% chance of getting through both defences in one round. Not outside the realms of possibility, but Pharaoh was a little unlucky in this one.

- Saph

Edit: Oh, and I've got another character I'd like to try out in a practice duel, if anyone's currently free.

Actually, if I ever failed to take down a target with a blow, I would attack them again until I succeeded. I already worked it out, there was a 47% chance (rounded up) that I would kill him, assuming he would die in one hit and I wouldn't miss. But yes, I got extraordinarily lucky nonetheless.

[Doc Roc]

Jemini: For the most part, it's still present. Specific exemptions may be made.
Oskar: Talic has the right of it.

Dungeon update wave tonight. :)

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Hmm... On light of my recent loss anyone have a way of circumventing no saves?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Hmm... On light of my recent loss anyone have a way of circumventing no saves?Iron Heart Surge.

[Talic]

No save, just damage? Contingencies, and ready actions are pretty much the only way. Though, since those particular spells are slashing damage, DR would also apply to each casting.

[imperialspectre]

Tide: I was hoping for an instance relatively soon. I could either go in with just my wizard character, or I could throw together one or two more characters to go in with him, or I could try and put together the all-Cleric party I've been toying with the last couple days. If there's someone else who can post regularly who needs an instance, that could work, but my schedule's really weird these days and I'd rather not run someone else's instance into the ground.

Sharnian: What Talic said, and also if the damage is based on attack rolls you want to put together as many miss chances as possible. For example, combining Mirror Image, Blur and Displacement is roughly as good as setting your AC so high that your opponent can only ever hit on a 20, with the added bonus that a natural 20 doesn't actually guarantee a hit. It's awesome. :)

[9mm]

damn, not only does the dice roller hate Sharnian, he keeps getting people who attack in strange ways... auto-damage, thats down right nasty.

[Doc Roc]

Right now, Imp, the rate-limiter is unfortunately actually me, so you might as well find someone to pair up with.
I'm sorry everything's been such slow going, I'm still pulling myself together.

[Talic]

Magimelt is ready for the dungeon now. Had to loot the body and make a few unusual purchases (scrolls, eternal wands).

Down side to Miss chance effects is that if they're bypassed, they're useless. For example, the above? Neutered by true seeing. Add in Blink/Greater Blink, and you have a defense against anything that doesn't hit ethereal.

[T.G. Oskar]

Well, aside from a slight change I had to do and a little fix, my PsyMonk is ready to enter in action. Tide pretty much approved it, though I had to account for a little mistake (oddly enough, I still haven't added the HP, but it's not quite high) Should make for an interesting battle.

Just in case, I'm not quite used to the PBP style of roleplay, and my style of forum roleplaying is closer to free-form, so expect a lengthy description of the area and some cinematics. Of course, I'll attempt to work with the rolls and the buffs as good as I can possibly do.

[Talic]

damn, not only does the dice roller hate Sharnian, he keeps getting people who attack in strange ways... auto-damage, thats down right nasty.

There's a reason they say that Psions make better blasters than wizards. My wizard side is almost 100% utility, with a bit of summoning and CC for good measure.

Psion does damage so beautifully.

Energy Missile = 1d6 damage per manifester level and +1 DC per manifester level above 3. This means that the DC scales twice as fast as most abilities. At ML 3? My guy has 3d6, save 21. At ML 15? 15d6, save 33 (35 if electricity)
Energy Stun = as above, except -2d6 damage (DC scaling unchanged), and anything that fails the fort or reflex (caster's choice) save, has to make a will save or stun for a round. So at ML 15? 13d6 damage, Fort or Reflex 33 for half (reflex 35 if electricity, +13 damage if fire or cold), and Will 33 if you fail that or be stunned for a round.

Add in being able to spam up to 4 of those in a round? Yeah, it ain't pretty.

[JeminiZero]

Undoubtedly, Psions can do good damage. But in order to say they are better at it than Wizards, one must consider how that compares against, say, the Orb-spamming Cindy.

I'm not saying that Wizards are definitely better, just pointing out that you need something to compare it against.

[Saph]

Energy Missile = 1d6 damage per manifester level and +1 DC per manifester level above 3. This means that the DC scales twice as fast as most abilities.

I've never figured out why they decided to make the DC for those powers increase by 1 per point, instead of 1 per 2 points.

[Talic]

Undoubtedly, Psions can do good damage. But in order to say they are better at it than Wizards, one must consider how that compares against, say, the Orb-spamming Cindy.

I'm not saying that Wizards are definitely better, just pointing out that you need something to compare it against.
Note: The psion build I use is not optimized in the manner that Cindy is.

Were I to build the blaster psion to that level, it would be immune to all negative status effects, damage, and everything else 24 hours a day, and have an endless supply of Power Points.

Cindy is not an example of a properly optimized blaster mage. It is an example of metamagic abuse. That abuse would be countered with metapsionic abuse on the same level of cheese.

Also, note that Cindy is a standard Batman until she hits around level 15 or so (hits the key level of Incantatrix). Psions can hit their limit break (go high powered damage) at around level 7-8.

I've never figured out why they decided to make the DC for those powers increase by 1 per point, instead of 1 per 2 points.
Kineticist powers, not standard Psion. Only accessible by discipline or feat.

[Saph]

Kineticist powers, not standard Psion. Only accessible by discipline or feat.

That's not a particularly good explanation. It still breaks the standard save DC model for no apparent reason.

- Saph

[Talic]

That's not a particularly good explanation. It still breaks the standard save DC model for no apparent reason.

- Saph

I believe it is, respectfully. The specialist powers are superior to the non-specialist powers in their discipline. This makes sense. Nobody can make an astral construct without a feat or a discipline choice. Nobody can get Schism actions without that. Other people can effectively deal damage without Kineticist. However, they can't do it as well. That's the bone thrown to kineticist. The powers within a discipline are more powerful, to reflect the added power of specialization, as Psions don't get bonus spells for discipline choice, as wizards do.

That said, spells that deal damage are, by and large, worthless because of the fact that they're barely on par if things fail saves. They're behind the curve if they pass. Increasing the DC of said spells just mitigates the Mettle/Evasion/Low-save-is-plus-thirty concept.

Psion powers have some that are woefully inefficient, and some that are pushing OP. But psionics also has built in hard limiters to Meta feats, and is, on the whole, less abusable than spellcasting.

[Saph]

But in the case of Energy Stun, it's not just damage. It's damage and a free save-or-suck thrown in. You aren't seriously telling me that's underpowered?

I just don't think it's a good idea to break the basic assumptions of the system like that without a very good reason. Most of the Test of Spite characters I've seen so far have Reflex saves around the +10 to +15 mark. The fact that a psion can chuck out attacks that require a nat. 20 to save against should honestly be a sign that something's a bit wrong.

- Saph

[Doc Roc]

I haven't built any characters for the ToS yet. I'm worried that my ban list needs expansion, as I could push similarly difficult saves from a spell caster.

Do you think that tainted scholar and its ilk need an explicit ban?

[Saph]

I dunno - I always had the impression that taint is something that only really works in a campaign with the DM working out its effects. Wouldn't tainted scholar end up with you going dead or insane before too long?

[imperialspectre]

Short answer is no. While I'm away from books at the moment, the Tainted Scholar can avoid harmful effects from taint, and there are lots of ways to generate taint for oneself, at which point you can trigger a number of TO combos and/or loops.

I'd ban the whole taint mechanic, Tide. That's been the case in my group ever since one of the guys who isn't even much of an optimizer got Heroes of Horror and came up with a bunch of ways to break that mechanic.

[Talic]

But in the case of Energy Stun, it's not just damage. It's damage and a free save-or-suck thrown in. You aren't seriously telling me that's underpowered?
First? It's only a save or suck if you fail a save. So, in actuality, it's only suck if you fail 2 different saves, one of which is Will.
And I'm not telling you that's underpowered. What I am saying is that one more psionic "1d6 per Power Point you spend" power would be a slap in the face for anyone that wanted kineticist. You don't give them something they can get off the base list, and expect them to be content. There has to be a measured advantage to going kineticist for blasting, just as there's a measured advantage to going telepath for mental manipulation.
So they give increased save DC's. One power exchanges some damage for a possible stun... IF your opponent fails two different saves (i.e. if they have a large character weakness).

Note: The character I designed is operating at manifester level 15, via overchanneling. A typical psion with a 26 or so int would have a DC 30.

Analysis:
Let's look at a solid base class (Cleric). At level 13, base saves of 8/4/8.
Assume a 14 con, 12 dex, and a 24 wisdom (reasonable for a 13th level cleric). Saves are now 10/5/15. Add on a cloak of Resistance +5 (well within WBL, and a reasonable, common-sense purchase. My psion had one, as did my opponent). Now you have a +15/+10/+20.

With those saves, assuming you target reflex? Yes, there needs to be a Nat 20 to save against the damage, which isn't huge, but the will save has a 55% success rate.

That's not heavily optimized either. It's conservative numbers, and reasonable purchases for anyone expecting possible Save-or-lose.

Take Warblade. Level 13, 16 ranks in concentration. +6 Con modifier, and a skill focus in concentration, and Diamond mind provides a +25 Save.

None of this is particularly optimized. If a character in here wants to run around with a high save of +12? That's their business. But it's easily possible to turn normal saves (10+ability modifier+spell level) into irrelevant checks. Assuming a +9 modifier, an effective level 8 spell, and 2 feats for boosting save DC? DC 29. Mr Diamond Mind above has a 15% fail shot, against a psion who's spent 3 feats, has taken 3d8 damage, expended a psionic focus, a large chunk of WBL, and probably about 8-10% of his power points for the day. (Overchannel, Psionic endowment/Greater Psionic endowment feats).

The boost? Makes it a 35% fail chance.

At this level? The ability you're expressing concern over provides a +4 DC over the standard level. Strong? Yes. As unbalancing as you're suggesting? I don't think so. Touchsight is far more worrisome, as is Mindsight. Both render schools of magic practically useless. Both are next to impossible to defend against.



I just don't think it's a good idea to break the basic assumptions of the system like that without a very good reason. Most of the Test of Spite characters I've seen so far have Reflex saves around the +10 to +15 mark. The fact that a psion can chuck out attacks that require a nat. 20 to save against should honestly be a sign that something's a bit wrong.

- Saph
I disagree. No problem has been made versus the characters with +25 to hit and 1 shot ability. The issue here isn't that the DC is too high to protect against, with only moderate resource use.

The issue is that too many people are focusing on one thing to the exclusion of everything else. The result of that is gaping weaknesses. This exploits a gaping weakness in most builds. Not because people can't defend. Because they don't.

I ain't really gonna waste my time wondering WHY people neglect saving throws, hp, AC, or miss chances. I will, however, build characters to attack any of the above. I will look for the weak point, and when I find it, I will crush it home.

To offer one other piece of information.

This ability provides (at ML 15) for a +4 DC over powers which provide standard progression of saves.

Swarm of Crystals is 1 die type down, and offers no save at all. It further hits physical damage, rather than energy. DR is typically more difficult to boost than energy resistance. Case in point? Resist Energy (level 2 core spell) at CL 11+ provides Energy resistance of 30. Heck, at CL 3, it provides energy resistance of 10. DR 10? Not so easy to get. Stoneskin, a level 5 spell, at CL 9, will get you DR 10. Nothing will get 30.

So, -1 damage per die (equivalent of Energy missile-sonic, at 1d6-1 per die), it disallows a save entirely. Only downside? Short range. Comparatively, it is overpowered? I don't think so.

[T.G. Oskar]

I'd be more worried by Control Body than by the energy spells. Granted, it's a Fort save, but failing the save means you can pretty much "dominate" the opponent's body or keep it neatly helpless while *ahem* someone else coup-de-grace it.

Thing is, Psions have several ways to handle the blasting thing. With one power, you're gaining effectively the equivalent of four spells, or one spell and free energy substitution (no feat, no class feature). Or, they can just attack with a slashing power (most crystal powers are slashing) which deals physical damage instead. Or raw telekinetic power, which while allowing a save it deals damage that can't be resisted easily.

Energy Stun is offered to any Psion, actually, without need for specialization. Kineticists gain from it no more than they'd get from Shapers or Seers. So does most of the energy powers out there. But, good to consider, the ability to scale the DC linearly instead of half linearly can cause some troubles. Mostly, on the part that the base DC score for the power is essentially 13 (10 + the level of the power, which is two + the minimum requisite ability score to use the power, which is 12 and thus a +1 modifier), at the minimum level which is 3 (which means at a bare minimum a base SV of +4). That means between a 25% to a 45% just for starters. However, while you get roughly a 5% increase to your chances of success every two levels, the power removes those chances per level. So, at level 13, that means a bare minimum of DC 23, while the base save only increases to +8. Considering that, for all means, the requisite SV score reduces the net save bonus by effectively canceling the bonus provided by the requisite score for manifesting, the net results become much higher (linearly higher, but still higher).

Compare that to a spell, which doesn't have that kind of saving throw growth and which largely depends on increasing the requisite score, and that there's quite enough equivalents between the DC increments for spells and for psionics, and Saph's worry becomes evident. Even though the suck element of the SVS rider effect is relatively weak, the fact that you can lob a Sonic Stun power which deals -1 to damage but causes stun and can't be resisted by anything causes a bit of trouble. Even worse, when the premier resisting spell (Resist Energy) manifests a difficulty trying to defend properly, to end in nothing since you can manifest the power as a different element anyways, which means nearly four castings of Resist Energy just to gain resistance to a single power. And at least two of the options grant an extra amount of damage, which essentially serves as a damage buffer (a ML 22 Psion effectively removes 20 to resistance while causing 20d6 damage with 22 power points; Electricity doesn't provide a buffer but makes the save DC harder, and a really bad save can ruin a Sonic blast but it ends up striking at objects nonetheless which is the whole purpose)

The point to notice, though, it's that the rider effect isn't particularly effective against the people you want it to (immunity to stunning weakens Energy Stun, although you can use something else)

Also, one 2nd level power and one 7th level power make you immune to two schools of magic. A 4th level power makes another school and half of another school also largely irrelevant. Meanwhile, it takes the same amount of spells to gain immunity to three psionic disciplines. Just to clarify: Personal Mind Blank, Energy Adaptation and Touchsight make you largely resistant to Evocation, the energy-based Conjuration spells, Illusion and Enchantment. Mind Blank, Dimensional Anchor and Resist Energy make Telepathy, Psychoportation and Psychokinesis largely irrelevant. I may be missing more resistances, but eventually both are relatively balanced.

And, doesn't Body of War or something gives DR 30/Adamantine? Well...you lose spellcasting abilities methinks, but it's basically a hulking construct of a monster hitting anyways...

[Talic]

Thing is, Psions have several ways to handle the blasting thing. With one power, you're gaining effectively the equivalent of four spells, or one spell and free energy substitution (no feat, no class feature). Or, they can just attack with a slashing power (most crystal powers are slashing) which deals physical damage instead. Or raw telekinetic power, which while allowing a save it deals damage that can't be resisted easily.Agreed. Psions are, on the whole, more versatile at blasting.

Energy Stun is offered to any Psion, actually, without need for specialization. Kineticists gain from it no more than they'd get from Shapers or Seers. So does most of the energy powers out there. But, good to consider, the ability to scale the DC linearly instead of half linearly can cause some troubles. Mostly, on the part that the base DC score for the power is essentially 13 (10 + the level of the power, which is two + the minimum requisite ability score to use the power, which is 12 and thus a +1 modifier), at the minimum level which is 3 (which means at a bare minimum a base SV of +4). That means between a 25% to a 45% just for starters. However, while you get roughly a 5% increase to your chances of success every two levels, the power removes those chances per level. So, at level 13, that means a bare minimum of DC 23, while the base save only increases to +8. Considering that, for all means, the requisite SV score reduces the net save bonus by effectively canceling the bonus provided by the requisite score for manifesting, the net results become much higher (linearly higher, but still higher).
You're thinking about it too much. First, you do not increase chance of success 5% every 2 levels. You increase your chance of success by 5%. Subtle, but important distinction. This is a common fallacy created by those who aren't thoroughly versed in statistics.

For example. I have a save DC of 22. You have a saving throw of +2. I get a +1 DC. What's the increase? 0%. I have a 95% chance, no more.

On the other side... I have a DC of 21. You have a saving throw of +23. I get a +1 DC? What's the increase? 0%. I have a 5% chance, no more.

Now, I have a Save DC of 20. You have a save modifier of +19. I get a +1 DC. Yes, my chance of success increased by 5%. However, I'm 100% more likely to succeed (5% chance versus 10% chance, I've doubled the frequency of success).

4th example. I have a Save DC of 30. You have a save of +11. I get a +1 DC. My chance of success increased by 5% (90% to 95%). I am 5.6% more likely to hit now (the percentage increase in hit chance).

This is why increasing your chance of succeeding isn't always cut and dry, nor does a 5% increase in your chance of success always mean 5% more successes (in fact, it almost never does).

Further, the linear scale is being overemphasized here.

Let's look at the 1 DC/2 PP method, assuming a +9 int.
DC 10+Int+Power Level+Bonuses
DC 19+Power level+Bonuses

The powers in question are level 2.

DC 21+Bonuses.
Cost is 3pp. Augmenting it +10 more pp yields a result of +5 DC.
Final DC 26.

Versus +10 pp yielding a result of +10 DC.
final DC 31.

So, at level 13, the net difference is +5.
At level 19, the difference is +8.
Now, this needs to be contrasted to the powers that augment +1DC for every 4-8 points spent, but that's neither here nor there.


Compare that to a spell, which doesn't have that kind of saving throw growth and which largely depends on increasing the requisite score, and that there's quite enough equivalents between the DC increments for spells and for psionics, and Saph's worry becomes evident. Even though the suck element of the SVS rider effect is relatively weak, the fact that you can lob a Sonic Stun power which deals -1 to damage but causes stun and can't be resisted by anything causes a bit of trouble. Even worse, when the premier resisting spell (Resist Energy) manifests a difficulty trying to defend properly, to end in nothing since you can manifest the power as a different element anyways, which means nearly four castings of Resist Energy just to gain resistance to a single power. And at least two of the options grant an extra amount of damage, which essentially serves as a damage buffer (a ML 22 Psion effectively removes 20 to resistance while causing 20d6 damage with 22 power points; Electricity doesn't provide a buffer but makes the save DC harder, and a really bad save can ruin a Sonic blast but it ends up striking at objects nonetheless which is the whole purpose)
So, basically what your saying, is that spells and Psionics work differently?
Yup.
Psionics have power augmentation, and the ability to make 1 power act like several (Astral Construct, Energy Missile, etc).
Psions also have limited powers known.
Psions also have a devilishly difficult time applying metapsionics to powers.
Psions also have an even harder time doing it while applying the equivalent of spell focus to their powers.

Yes, psions have to expend their focus for darn near everything. Increase DC? Expend a focus. Quicken a power? Expend a focus. Maximize a power? Expend a focus.

That's on top of the extra PP.
And on top of the fact that there's less splat for them. Fell Drain? Every damaging spell gives rider negative levels now. And that wizard can throw a twinned chained split ray fell drain orb of force. Psions? Much more limited in Meta, and less limited with power versatility. It is a tradeoff.


The point to notice, though, it's that the rider effect isn't particularly effective against the people you want it to (immunity to stunning weakens Energy Stun, although you can use something else)

Also, one 2nd level power and one 7th level power make you immune to two schools of magic. A 4th level power makes another school and half of another school also largely irrelevant. Meanwhile, it takes the same amount of spells to gain immunity to three psionic disciplines. Just to clarify: Personal Mind Blank, Energy Adaptation and Touchsight make you largely resistant to Evocation, the energy-based Conjuration spells, Illusion and Enchantment. Mind Blank, Dimensional Anchor and Resist Energy make Telepathy, Psychoportation and Psychokinesis largely irrelevant. I may be missing more resistances, but eventually both are relatively balanced.Except that Mind Blank is more powerful, RAW, than the psionic version, among other things.


And, doesn't Body of War or something gives DR 30/Adamantine? Well...you lose spellcasting abilities methinks, but it's basically a hulking construct of a monster hitting anyways...
First? Splatbook spell. Second? Spells that remove a caster's ability to cast are like swords that make fighters unable to attack. Not incredibly useful.

In closing, Psions are not wizards. Treating their powers like spells, and assuming that they should follow all the limiters, when they have additional limiters that wizards do not have? Not balanced. Psions can only have 2 focuses (themselves, and their construct) and have to expend them to do anything unusual. This was done because their powers have a lot of built in versatility, and metapsionics on par with metamagic would be unbalancing.

Psions have to regain their focus after any real effort they expend. That's a wasted standard action (move if you go MAD and boost some wisdom, and burn a feat).

And Saph, you say the powers don't follow the model. They do.

DC 10+Power Level+Ability Modifier+Bonuses.
DC 10+Spell Level+Ability Modifier+Bonuses.

The difference is that you can throw out greater spell focus without thinking about it ever.

Psions have to carefully choose when to use that, or another ability.

[Saph]

At this level? The ability you're expressing concern over provides a +4 DC over the standard level. Strong? Yes. As unbalancing as you're suggesting? I don't think so. Touchsight is far more worrisome, as is Mindsight. Both render schools of magic practically useless. Both are next to impossible to defend against.

I'm not saying it's the only overpowered thing, and I'm not saying it's the most overpowered thing. I just don't think it's very well-designed.


Swarm of Crystals is 1 die type down, and offers no save at all. It further hits physical damage, rather than energy. DR is typically more difficult to boost than energy resistance. Case in point? Resist Energy (level 2 core spell) at CL 11+ provides Energy resistance of 30. Heck, at CL 3, it provides energy resistance of 10. DR 10? Not so easy to get. Stoneskin, a level 5 spell, at CL 9, will get you DR 10. Nothing will get 30.

Oh, come on. What are the chances that a target is going to have Resist Energy up against the exact energy type that you choose to throw at him? Has it ever happened to you? Seriously, if it does, tell me, because I'll want to see it. I've tried using Resist Energy against blaster-casters in the past, and I've always found it pretty ineffective - by the time you know which kind of energy to shield against, it's usually too late. Against something like a red dragon, which can only shoot one type of energy, it works. Against a Psion, no.

- Saph

[Talic]

Oh, come on. What are the chances that a target is going to have Resist Energy up against the exact energy type that you choose to throw at him? Has it ever happened to you? Seriously, if it does, tell me, because I'll want to see it. I've tried using Resist Energy against blaster-casters in the past, and I've always found it pretty ineffective - by the time you know which kind of energy to shield against, it's usually too late. Against something like a red dragon, which can only shoot one type of energy, it works. Against a Psion, no.

- Saph

I wouldn't consider it to be a bad investment to have all Resist energy variants up. I don't have it on the current guy, but he took defense a different way.

Heck, my test of might guys have layered protections of a similar sort.

Also, there's spell resistance (the spell) which will throw an automatic 60% failure chance on every power being discussed here.

Also, there's the fact that psions get their versatility in their powers.
Wizards get it in their feats.

If you don't think it's well designed? Meh, it is what it is. At least it's a slight variation on the traditional Vancian system.

[T.G. Oskar]

You're thinking about it too much. First, you do not increase chance of success 5% every 2 levels. You increase your chance of success by 5%. Subtle, but important distinction. This is a common fallacy created by those who aren't thoroughly versed in statistics.

For example. I have a save DC of 22. You have a saving throw of +2. I get a +1 DC. What's the increase? 0%. I have a 95% chance, no more.

On the other side... I have a DC of 21. You have a saving throw of +23. I get a +1 DC? What's the increase? 0%. I have a 5% chance, no more.

Now, I have a Save DC of 20. You have a save modifier of +19. I get a +1 DC. Yes, my chance of success increased by 5%. However, I'm 100% more likely to succeed (5% chance versus 10% chance, I've doubled the frequency of success).

4th example. I have a Save DC of 30. You have a save of +11. I get a +1 DC. My chance of success increased by 5% (90% to 95%). I am 5.6% more likely to hit now (the percentage increase in hit chance).

This is why increasing your chance of succeeding isn't always cut and dry, nor does a 5% increase in your chance of success always mean 5% more successes (in fact, it almost never does).

Further, the linear scale is being overemphasized here.

Let's look at the 1 DC/2 PP method, assuming a +9 int.
DC 10+Int+Power Level+Bonuses
DC 19+Power level+Bonuses

The powers in question are level 2.

DC 21+Bonuses.
Cost is 3pp. Augmenting it +10 more pp yields a result of +5 DC.
Final DC 26.

Versus +10 pp yielding a result of +10 DC.
final DC 31.

So, at level 13, the net difference is +5.
At level 19, the difference is +8.
Now, this needs to be contrasted to the powers that augment +1DC for every 4-8 points spent, but that's neither here nor there.

Well, the importance was to consider the range between the flat 5% and the flat 95% that involve exceeding the range in which a d20 can fail or not. Perhaps it's a bit more subtle, but it should be considered that, on a discussion, that factor should be pretty obvious (unless it's someone new to the game, everyone knows that a nat1 is always a fail and a nat20 is an automatic success, which accounts for the 1/20 chance of automatic failure or success) Also, recall that some abilities (such as one of the Knight's special abilities, or the Conc. to saves maneuvers) ignore this little factor, so the flat 5% of automatic success or failure may not always be present.

Also, at times, it's better to explain using the different terms (fractions, percentage and variables). The third example would have been better presented by just saying "I'm twice as more likely to hit" than confusing by limiting to a single factor (just like in the same example, raising +3 DC instead of +1 DC nets you a 200% increase in success)

Which is why mostly it's better to handle the equation on a whole.

...Then again, the only thing I moderately took close to statistics was a semester of Analytical Chemistry, which is nowhere near the amount of statistics needed (it does use a lot of standard deviation and bell curve calculations, tho)


So, basically what your saying, is that spells and Psionics work differently?
Yup.
Psionics have power augmentation, and the ability to make 1 power act like several (Astral Construct, Energy Missile, etc).
Psions also have limited powers known.
Psions also have a devilishly difficult time applying metapsionics to powers.
Psions also have an even harder time doing it while applying the equivalent of spell focus to their powers.

Yes, psions have to expend their focus for darn near everything. Increase DC? Expend a focus. Quicken a power? Expend a focus. Maximize a power? Expend a focus.

That's on top of the extra PP.
And on top of the fact that there's less splat for them. Fell Drain? Every damaging spell gives rider negative levels now. And that wizard can throw a twinned chained split ray fell drain orb of force. Psions? Much more limited in Meta, and less limited with power versatility. It is a tradeoff.

Except that you don't need a lot of investment on metapsionics. Mostly, the raw investment plus Psionic Meditation and a high Concentration score to auto-ensure a psionic focus. A Wizard would require not only planning the right spell, but quite enough focus its effect by limiting the choice weapon for Metamagic, in order to make it more successful. Sure, you can apply them to any spell you prepare beforehand, but unless you can reduce the massive increase in spell levels (which means investing ONE extra feat which is extremely limited in scope plus perhaps entering a prestige class and a more convoluted amount of effects)

The only problem you manifest is the very stringent reading of Psionic Focus, which pretty much forces you to expend your focus on one single feat instead of on several. Now, I'm not saying to handwave that; just to show your main point. And I mention it just to specify how brutal would be to remove the restriction on single expenditures of psionic focus for metapsionics exclusively, since that would mean you can expend about two or three metapsionic feats on a single power and be limited only by your ML, which can be increased with less effort than what it takes to reduce spell levels for metamagic feats.

Still, considering that you pretty much have a free, embedded Heighten "Power" ability in every single manifesting class makes it for a slightly fairer trade.


Except that Mind Blank is more powerful, RAW, than the psionic version, among other things.

I fail to see how that happens. Personal Mind Blank is almost exactly like Mind Blank, except that it has a personal range and can be used by Psychic Warriors as a level 6 spell. Psionic Mind Blank is the duplicate of Mind Blank, and for all I see it behaves exactly the same as Mind Blank, to the point that any reference to power can be explained as affecting a spell through the psionics-magic transparency (which explains why Mind Blank as a spell can affect psionic mind-affecting effects). Furthermore, Mind Blank doesn't have the small "this is an exception to the psionics-magic rule" paragraph.


First? Splatbook spell. Second? Spells that remove a caster's ability to cast are like swords that make fighters unable to attack. Not incredibly useful.

I was just saying. You said there was no spell that could provide damage reduction in the range of 30, I just gave an example. I didn't say it was particularly effective, I just pointed there was a choice. Which, if you consider carefully, its quite potent since few things have a DR score in that degree. Heck, very few monsters have a DR score of that degree; mostly constructs.


In closing, Psions are not wizards. Treating their powers like spells, and assuming that they should follow all the limiters, when they have additional limiters that wizards do not have? Not balanced. Psions can only have 2 focuses (themselves, and their construct) and have to expend them to do anything unusual. This was done because their powers have a lot of built in versatility, and metapsionics on par with metamagic would be unbalancing.

Psions have to regain their focus after any real effort they expend. That's a wasted standard action (move if you go MAD and boost some wisdom, and burn a feat).

Basically, at the moment I'm writing this, I noticed that you pre-empted me on an earlier statement. Just to point out, since I'm kinda lazy to change the big lumpy post.

First, Psionic Meditation isn't that MAD. It's not like you're sacrificing something: a higher Wisdom means a higher Will save, and you only need a mere 13 in the score, which hardly would be recommendable considering that you'd want a decent Will score.

Also, perhaps the problem is comparing them to Wizards. The point is to compare them with Sorcerers, which can also add meta on the fly. Wizards prepare their spells, so it's not the most precise comparison (you can't cast a spell and apply a metamagic on the fly except with a rod or a feat, the rod has severe limitations and has a hefty price cost so you can't have lots of them, and the feats are generally regarded as useless). Sorcerers, on the other hand, can apply as many metamagic feats on the fly so as long as they retain their score. However, they can't apply a metamagic spell and also increase the potency of their spell as most psionic powers do (they'd need to use Heighten for that). Nor they can play with their PP as casters need to with their spell slots.

So yeah. Manifesters aren't Wizards; they're Sorcerers that can act like Wizards in some regards.

[Talic]

Except that you don't need a lot of investment on metapsionics. Mostly, the raw investment plus Psionic Meditation and a high Concentration score to auto-ensure a psionic focus. A Wizard would require not only planning the right spell, but quite enough focus its effect by limiting the choice weapon for Metamagic, in order to make it more successful. Sure, you can apply them to any spell you prepare beforehand, but unless you can reduce the massive increase in spell levels (which means investing ONE extra feat which is extremely limited in scope plus perhaps entering a prestige class and a more convoluted amount of effects)Also known as optimizing.
Psionic Focusing also takes combat actions. Standard ones. Which means, if I want to maximize power my Energy Missile, I Expend a focus. I then pay 6 extra PP (The functional equivalent of +3 level).

The big difference? Wizards can take a feat or two, access a prestige class, and stack a bunch of metamagic. It takes work, but it's doable. See Cindy. If psions want to do it again? They need to refocus, which means losing their next action (their movement with the right feats). However, that means that they start off worse than sorcerors (2 standard actions to meta, upgradeable to 1 standard/1 move... compare to sorceror standard: 1 standard/1 move, upgradeable to 1 standard only.)

Psions don't get that option.


The only problem you manifest is the very stringent reading of Psionic Focus, which pretty much forces you to expend your focus on one single feat instead of on several. Now, I'm not saying to handwave that; just to show your main point. And I mention it just to specify how brutal would be to remove the restriction on single expenditures of psionic focus for metapsionics exclusively, since that would mean you can expend about two or three metapsionic feats on a single power and be limited only by your ML, which can be increased with less effort than what it takes to reduce spell levels for metamagic feats.Exactly. The mechanic for powering up powers would be too powerful if it allowed for metapsionic stacking. But since they can't do some things wizards can, it's not such a big issue that they can do some things wizards can't.


Still, considering that you pretty much have a free, embedded Heighten "Power" ability in every single manifesting class makes it for a slightly fairer trade.Traded for losing a free embedded Spell Focus? Agreed.


I fail to see how that happens. Personal Mind Blank is almost exactly like Mind Blank, except that it has a personal range and can be used by Psychic Warriors as a level 6 spell. Psionic Mind Blank is the duplicate of Mind Blank, and for all I see it behaves exactly the same as Mind Blank, to the point that any reference to power can be explained as affecting a spell through the psionics-magic transparency (which explains why Mind Blank as a spell can affect psionic mind-affecting effects). Furthermore, Mind Blank doesn't have the small "this is an exception to the psionics-magic rule" paragraph.
Mind Blank:
This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects.
Psionic Mind Blank: This power protects against powers with the mind-affecting or scrying descriptors.
In other words, mind blank, as written, prevents any divination spell or effect from gaining information about you. Psionic Mind Blank does not. They both block scrying, they both block mind-affecting. Only the Spell version protects against information gathering. That's, once again, a subtle, but potentially important, distinction. For example. See Invisibility and True Seeing are both divination spells that provide someone with information about you. It could easily be interpreted that if you are invisible, and mind-blanked, True seeing couldn't detect you.

I was just saying. You said there was no spell that could provide damage reduction in the range of 30, I just gave an example. I didn't say it was particularly effective, I just pointed there was a choice. Which, if you consider carefully, its quite potent since few things have a DR score in that degree. Heck, very few monsters have a DR score of that degree; mostly constructs.It's potentially useful in limited situations. However, casters will bypass DR, and dedicated melee characters should be able to overcome it easily. Generally, when casters try to pretend to be not-casters, they end up being less powerful.

Basically, at the moment I'm writing this, I noticed that you pre-empted me on an earlier statement. Just to point out, since I'm kinda lazy to change the big lumpy post.

First, Psionic Meditation isn't that MAD. It's not like you're sacrificing something: a higher Wisdom means a higher Will save, and you only need a mere 13 in the score, which hardly would be recommendable considering that you'd want a decent Will score.Higher will save isn't urgent on a Psion's list. They've got access to a host of powers that protect them from will saves and have a strong base will save. More useful would be boosting Fort, which really needs the help. It's not highly MAD, but it is 5 points that could better be spent elsewhere, were it not for the focus.


Also, perhaps the problem is comparing them to Wizards. The point is to compare them with Sorcerers, which can also add meta on the fly. Wizards prepare their spells, so it's not the most precise comparison (you can't cast a spell and apply a metamagic on the fly except with a rod or a feat, the rod has severe limitations and has a hefty price cost so you can't have lots of them, and the feats are generally regarded as useless). Sorcerers, on the other hand, can apply as many metamagic feats on the fly so as long as they retain their score. However, they can't apply a metamagic spell and also increase the potency of their spell as most psionic powers do (they'd need to use Heighten for that). Nor they can play with their PP as casters need to with their spell slots.Sorcerors are a slightly better fit, true, but Psions are a blend of the two. More spells known than a sorceror, less spells to cast. Somewhere between wizard and sorceror in casting power, and close to parity with wizards for versatility. They're a bit from one, a bit from another, and a bit that's totally different. I'm fine with that.


So yeah. Manifesters aren't Wizards; they're Sorcerers that can act like Wizards in some regards.
No, they're not like sorcerors either. They can modify on the fly differently, have more versatility, and less spells cast.

It's just as accurate to say they're wizards that act like Sorcerors in some regards. That's what a blend is. A bit of one, a bit of the other.

[ex cathedra]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but with your psicrystal being a non-mindless construct with HD equal to it's masters, at level 12 it can qualify for psionic meditation, correct? I didn't consider giving my psicrystal feats until I saw the second psion someone entered and double checked to see if it was possible. It certainly seems it, assuming that psicrystals gain feats (which the seem to) and inherent ability bonuses from HD. They also could take Martial Study twice and gain WRT at level 12, among other things.

This is in regards to gaining psionic focus, of course. You could expend 5 focuses in a round, then.

This is iffy, though. Psionic Meditation specifically states that you may spend a move action to gain psionic focus, while Psicrystal Containment specifies that a psicrystal may not spend the action needed to gain psionic focus. I believe that if the psicrystal had pp (hidden talent?) It would in fact be able to gain it itself.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Oh, come on. What are the chances that a target is going to have Resist Energy up against the exact energy type that you choose to throw at him? Has it ever happened to you? Seriously, if it does, tell me, because I'll want to see it. I've tried using Resist Energy against blaster-casters in the past, and I've always found it pretty ineffective - by the time you know which kind of energy to shield against, it's usually too late. Against something like a red dragon, which can only shoot one type of energy, it works. Against a Psion, no.Contigent Enerrgy Resistance, SpC. When you're hit with an energy attack, you get Resist Energy 10 vs whichever is about to hit you. Pretty nice.

[Doc Roc]

There's a trick here, Ae, which is sometimes called the feat leech (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Feat_Leech) shuffle. It's common to load up the psi-crystal with expanded knowledge, or similar, using tricks like psychic reformation to set up what you'll need. Then you manifest and find a way to stick feat leech for a bit, snatching multiple expanded knowledge instances and similar off your psi-crystal. I'll try and hunt down a more detailed explanation.

[9mm]

There's a trick here, Ae, called feat leech. It's common to load up the psi-crystal with expanded knowledge, or similar, using tricks like psychic reformation to set up what you'll need. I'll try and hunt down a more detailed explanation.

if memory serves, this is what the original pun-pun was based off of.

[Doc Roc]

That'd also be the basis for binky the psi-crystal, I believe, but you may be correct. I missed the original pun-pun's drop by some.... three and a half years, so I only know the four or five modern incarnations. I'm relatively new to the optimization community.

In it's least-offensive form, this particular shuffle-trick is still useful for practical optimization in single caster parties relying on a psion.

[Talic]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but with your psicrystal being a non-mindless construct with HD equal to it's masters, at level 12 it can qualify for psionic meditation, correct? I didn't consider giving my psicrystal feats until I saw the second psion someone entered and double checked to see if it was possible. It certainly seems it, assuming that psicrystals gain feats (which the seem to) and inherent ability bonuses from HD. They also could take Martial Study twice and gain WRT at level 12, among other things.

This is in regards to gaining psionic focus, of course. You could expend 5 focuses in a round, then.

This is iffy, though. Psionic Meditation specifically states that you may spend a move action to gain psionic focus, while Psicrystal Containment specifies that a psicrystal may not spend the action needed to gain psionic focus. I believe that if the psicrystal had pp (hidden talent?) It would in fact be able to gain it itself.

Unfortunately, no. When it says the psicrystal cannot focus itself, it makes a specific statement about a specific creature. That overrides the general rule that psionic creatures can focus themselves.

[Doc Roc]

I suspect, and the following is not the precise RAW route I'd take, that you could have the crystal manifest fusion from a dorje or similar, and skirt around it that way, by fusing another mind into it as a sort of container for the psionic focus. But fusion is super-banned.

[ex cathedra]

Talic:
Very True. Well, at least Martial Study (White Raven Tactics) still seems viable for that 1/encounter extra set of actions.

Tide:
Curious, I'm not familiar. It certainly seems interesting.
Also, I haven't seen Olo in days. It's amusing in a sad, irksome sort of way. :smalltongue:

[Doc Roc]

I believe I might be able to hunt down his sheet and run his character for a time, if you like.

We're starting to push towards the fifty page limit, which worries me pretty seriously because I don't think a new thread is a great thing in this case... :S

I recommend trying it out. It's a pretty cool trick, basically gives you 4 extra powers or metapsionic options at level 12, easy! I'm so glad familiars don't work this was. I'm pretty sold on psionics, and have begun to consider ripping classical magic entirely or mostly out of the next few games I run, perhaps reserving it for the bad guys.

[Talic]

If Olo needs to drop out, I'm happy to step in, also.

[ex cathedra]

That's really not up to me, but I think this is like the third or fourth day in which he hasn't even logged. Mostly, I think that, because Sayna is short and halfling-like, she has trapfinding. Because they all must, you know. Speaking of which, there really should be a ring of trapfinding. I have this +10 search modifier that is completely useless.

Anyways, I don't really think I should make any sort of decision like this, I don't recall seeing anything specifying what happens when you're overly idle. Of course, I haven't read much more of the rules than "Bring a shovel" and the character options.

Edit: Closer to 50 pages still.

Also, would a psicrystal be able to gain focus if you didn't take Psicrystal Containment? The limiting factor is imposed by that feat's Benefits, specifically. It'd be next to useless, but I'm just theorizing.

[Talic]

1 pp creates an astral construct to open doors for me. That's my method of trapfinding.

[Signmaker]

1 pp creates an astral construct to open doors for me. That's my method of trapfinding.

While that does cover most common trap methods, wouldn't you eventually run the risk of tripping a trap that still involves you despite not opening the door?

Minor nitpick. Druid is almost done, just perusing gear.

[ex cathedra]

If for some unlikely reason the gnome doesn't have trapfinding, I'll probably just poke the traps with a spear. That's what I bought them for, after all.

[Saph]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but with your psicrystal being a non-mindless construct with HD equal to it's masters, at level 12 it can qualify for psionic meditation, correct? I didn't consider giving my psicrystal feats until I saw the second psion someone entered and double checked to see if it was possible. It certainly seems it, assuming that psicrystals gain feats (which the seem to) and inherent ability bonuses from HD. They also could take Martial Study twice and gain WRT at level 12, among other things.

Yeah, I have to say, playing in the Test of Spite has changed my opinion quite a bit about psionic characters. I always used to be told by fans of psionics how much more balanced it was than the core D&D magic system, but I'm starting to think that the people who think you can't make a crazy broken psion just haven't been looking very hard.

- Saph

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Well, people never said that you couldn't break psionics. Just that there were fewer exploits.

I mean, arcane magic has so many more things wrong with it, don't you agree? :smallwink:

[ex cathedra]

I do think it's more balanced. Of course, it's still leagues better than non-casting classes, but, when compared to full arcane casters, they're much less worrisome. The fact that XPH and CP are 9/10 of their power list also contributes. Also, power points. I love them. It's spontaneous casting, but better, with wizard casting progression.

Of course, the designers likely made a few oversights (such as psicrystals gaining HD and being intelligent; that likely wasn't intended, but it's completely true regardless). And, of course, those are the things that get attention drawn to them. This is supposedly optimized pvp; in these situations anything that can be exploited likely will, and so I don't think it's a very good judge of balance.

[9mm]

Yeah, I have to say, playing in the Test of Spite has changed my opinion quite a bit about psionic characters. I always used to be told by fans of psionics how much more balanced it was than the core D&D magic system, but I'm starting to think that the people who think you can't make a crazy broken psion just haven't been looking very hard.

- Saph

No, they looked quite hard, Pun-Pun was originally only a level 12 psionic with infinite stats, then the rest of CharOp saw all the other things it could do, and that Arcanists could do it at level 1. you really can break just about any class, the question is does it break the world along with it. my save-or-lose fighter build (not appearing in this contest, yet) won't destroy the world like a hulking hurler, but still can drive a DM nuts. (if only because it abuses the grapple.)

[Talic]

No, they looked quite hard, Pun-Pun was originally only a level 12 psionic with infinite stats, then the rest of CharOp saw all the other things it could do, and that Arcanists could do it at level 1. you really can break just about any class, the question is does it break the world along with it. my save-or-lose fighter build (not appearing in this contest, yet) won't destroy the world like a hulking hurler, but still can drive a DM nuts. (if only because it abuses the grapple.)

After ECL 7, then, there's a problem. Freedom of Movement.

[9mm]

After ECL 7, then, there's a problem. Freedom of Movement.

DM in question was running a no magic champaign + freedom of movement is harder to pull off inside a pin, not much granted, but it is (assuming of course it isn't already on). But that one spell is why he isn't being entered, even if he's so funny to play.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

waiting approval on new character... anyone want to fight?

[Signmaker]

Are there any particularly good druid buffs 4th level and lower? I'm trying to fill out spell slots and it's proving to be difficult.

[ex cathedra]

4 : Freedom of Movement, Greater Luminous Armor, Sheltered Vitality
3 : Vigor, Mass Lesser Vigor, Spiderskin, Protection from Energy
2 : [Animal's] [Attribute], Embrace the Wild

Hope those might help.

[Doc Roc]

The gist of the issue is that psionics is more balanced, but it's good at things that arcanists normally are not. So the initial perception is a extremely strong negative reaction. However, it's impossible to argue that it isn't extremely powerful. It's a really cool portion of the game that got too little attention and could have used just a small margin of more extensive testing. I still feel that arcanists are much stronger, particularly in a setting like this with all books open. I did, however, chose a ECL that is particularly strong for psionics, which may have been a marginal mistake.

[Melamoto]

This is a question to make a variant viable for a specific build, but I don't think it would really be that bad.
Can I use the Fighter Sneak Attack variant (Lose Bonus Feats for Sneak Attack), and treat it as Rogue for the purposes of multiclass feats? It sounds like a bit of a stretch, but I have a build plan that can't be done before level 14 without a better BAB than the Rogue offers. Nothing broken is involved, and it is a very slight change of the rules. And lets face it, Fighters that lose the one good thing about them (Feats) will not be that powerful, even with Sneak Attack.

[Signmaker]

4 : Freedom of Movement, Greater Luminous Armor, Sheltered Vitality
3 : Vigor, Mass Lesser Vigor, Spiderskin, Protection from Energy
2 : [Animal's] [Attribute], Embrace the Wild

Hope those might help.

Druids can take Luminous Armor? Didn't know that.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Can plane shift teleport someone outside of the Test of Spite?

[ex cathedra]

Druids can take Luminous Armor? Didn't know that.

Any good-aligned non-spontaneous caster can. Paladins, Rangers, Wizards, Clerics, and Druids in core.

[9mm]

Can plane shift teleport someone outside of the Test of Spite?

no, says so right on the front page.

[Oslecamo]

I still feel that arcanists are much stronger, particularly in a setting like this with all books open. I did, however, chose a ECL that is particularly strong for psionics, which may have been a marginal mistake.


Arcanists are indeed stronger than psionics.

And...That's it. The psion on steroids will beat up pretty much anything else but the planar sheperd(wich defeats the psion only because he's an arcanist in disguise).

So you can only call them balanced if by balanced you mean they're second bests counting from the top.

It's pretty much like D&D and other RPGs. People are always screaming that D&D is unbalanced as it allows the creation of brokez characters, but when you take a closer look at the other RPGs, you quickly find out it's easy to make brokez characters on them as well.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

no, says so right on the front page.

What i meant was if it could teleport someone ie opponent, to the plane we're already on and hopefully I'll win by ringout because iirc Plane shift is inaccurate and transports 1d100*5 miles (or something like that) from the target destination

[Doc Roc]

I....disagree strongly. A well-built divine caster, such as an archivist, kicks the skivvies off of all but straight up exploit driven psionics.

Sharnian, there are no ring outs. :)

[Signmaker]

Planeshift does not work, as you are trapped in ravenloft.

Seems pretty clear-cut to me.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

...:( I know but I think that Tide said somewhere that if you can leave the arena through some means (like Rope Trick i guess or something) but have to return within X time or be forfeit the match

On a side note, can I reroll my prismatic ray if it comes up as plane shift ray

[JeminiZero]

We're starting to push towards the fifty page limit, which worries me pretty seriously because I don't think a new thread is a great thing in this case... :S


Its not that bad. It at least gives you a chance to create a new thread with extra posts reserved at the front. Many matches have occurred that have not been updated on the front page.

Edit: Say Tide, what was the policy for partially charged Wands/Dorjes? I'm gonna UPD me some touchsight, since that seems to be the only way to reliably detect HiPS. :smalltongue:

[T.G. Oskar]

Well...the thread could have a big service if it split. One thread for recruitment, rules, Hall of Honor and whatnot, and the other for extended discussions ABOUT the Test's rules, plus expanded content. More than half of the thread is composed of "gg" messages and what not, part of the other half is rules discussions and personal opinion, and only a bare bit of messages are recruitment-based. Anything that doesn't pertain exactly to the Test (such as the psionics/arcane discussion, which should be separated and expanded on a new thread if it remains on good standing) should be part of a new, bigger thread or made their own separate thread.

Also, I know I asked Tide over e-mail, but how about the transitory planes such as the Plane of Shadow and the Ethereal Plane? Plane Shift would be effective on such shifts, since they are effectively contained within Ravenloft. However, perhaps it would invoke a forfeit rule if the battle effectively grinds to a stop because of it.

Finally, although still awaiting for the slight changes, my PsyMonk should be ready to move. Can't wait to get the beating of my life test it out!

[Doc Roc]

Its not that bad. It at least gives you a chance to create a new thread with extra posts reserved at the front. Many matches have occurred that have not been updated on the front page.

Edit: Say Tide, what was the policy for partially charged Wands/Dorjes? I'm gonna UPD me some touchsight, since that seems to be the only way to reliably detect HiPS. :smalltongue:

I believe they are explicitly banned. :)

[ex cathedra]

So, Tide, what do you suggest we do about Olo's absence? Run the character yourself, replace it, wait longer, kill it off and let me die alone?

Just throwing things out there.

[Talic]

There are many, many ways for piercing HiPS.

For example:

I know of only 1 Darkstalker/HiPS combo that isn't magical at level 13. Wilderness Rogue 13.

All the others? Arcane Sight will do ya. If you can identify magic auras, it's almost as good as blindsense. Even if they don't cast, even if their HiPS is extraordinary (unlike the level 1 warlock method or shadowdancer dip)... How many characters have you seen with no magic items, and no magical effects on them?

There are others. But I can't give away all of my tricks.

[Saph]

Sharnian, there are no ring outs. :)

Aww, but I like Soul Calibur. :P

Sharnian: everyone's been using slightly different rules for their arena fights. Some have been playing with the rule that leaving the arena forfeits, some haven't.

- Saph

[Mushroom Ninja]

I....disagree strongly. A well-built divine caster, such as an archivist, kicks the skivvies off of all but straight up exploit driven psionics.



But isn't a well-built archivist basically a wizard that can also cast divine spells?

[JeminiZero]

All the others? Arcane Sight will do ya. If you can identify magic auras, it's almost as good as blindsense. Even if they don't cast, even if their HiPS is extraordinary (unlike the level 1 warlock method or shadowdancer dip)... How many characters have you seen with no magic items, and no magical effects on them?


That came up in the Saph vs Imperial Spectre (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117315) fight (which as mentioned previously, was one of the fights NOT put on the front page, so it took me a while to find). I think non-detection could at least reasonably be taken to block Arcane Sight from detecting personal buffs.

And while non-detection may or may not block Arcane Sight from detecting magic gear, for 820 GP, you can purchase an eternal wand of Magic Aura that casts 2x per day, each casting lasts the whole day. Buy enough to cover all your (external) magic gear and that should also stop Arcane Sight.

So combining Magic Aura on all gear plus non-detection on self to prevent personal buffs from being detected, would blind Arcane Sight as well. I personally used this for Jack the Trap Monkey. (Ask Tarbrush, he's awfully annoyed at trying to play battleships :smalltongue:)

[Saph]

That came up in the Saph vs Imperial Spectre (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117315) fight (which as mentioned previously, was one of the fights NOT put on the front page, so it took me a while to find).

Yeah, Imperialspectre and I weren't able to come to an agreement on that one. I thought that Nondetection wouldn't shield personal buffs from Arcane Sight, he thought it would. Eventually after we'd discussed it for a while I thought up another way to spot him, so it didn't stall the match too much.

I've become quite an expert on detection methods as a result of this challenge. So many characters have been using stealth of one form or another. Luckily the counter-stealth abilities in 3.5 are slightly better than the stealth ones, otherwise the inevitable consequence after enough fights would be duels where neither character had any way of detecting the other. :P

- Saph

[JeminiZero]

Yeah, Imperialspectre and I weren't able to come to an agreement on that one. I thought that Nondetection wouldn't shield personal buffs from Arcane Sight, he thought it would.


I rather think ImpSpec's argument makes sense: All magical detection occurs via auras. So for non-detection to block the detect series, it must be blocking auras.



Eventually after we'd discussed it for a while I thought up another way to spot him, so it didn't stall the match too much.


Yes... for this reason I specifically did NOT give Jack the Trap Monkey any mirror images (Who knew those things could work against you) :smallbiggrin:



I've become quite an expert on detection methods as a result of this challenge. So many characters have been using stealth of one form or another. Luckily the counter-stealth abilities in 3.5 are slightly better than the stealth ones, otherwise the inevitable consequence after enough fights would be duels where neither character had any way of detecting the other. :P


I am unfortunately still an amateur (in most things not just stealth). Right now, all that I can think of that reliably detects HiPsters with Darkstalker and Nondetection/Magic Aura is either Mindsight or Touchsight.

[ex cathedra]

Speaking of which, I'm not too familiar with mindsight. Could I get a source on it?

[JeminiZero]

Speaking of which, I'm not too familiar with mindsight. Could I get a source on it?

Lords of Madness (yes the same book with Darkstalker) pg 126. Its easy enough for any arcane caster to pick up (as if God-wizards needs another boost) with a splash in mindbender and 1 feat.

[ex cathedra]

Ah, thanks so much.

[Saph]

I rather think ImpSpec's argument makes sense: All magical detection occurs via auras. So for non-detection to block the detect series, it must be blocking auras.

Not all. The example spells noted in the Nondetection entry are Clairvoyance and Locate Object. It's a plausible interpretation to say that Nondetection blocks auras, but it's not what the spell actually says, so . . . Anyway, I picked up Mindsight for future characters just so that I wouldn't have to have the argument again.

[ex cathedra]

How would a spell such as Planar Exchange (Spell Compendium) function with the calling rules in effect, if I might ask? I've finally settled on what my next character shall be.

[JeminiZero]

Anyway, I picked up Mindsight for future characters just so that I wouldn't have to have the argument again.


So... all your future characters are going to be arcane casters?

[Doc Roc]

Greensnake naga, +1 LA from OA, telepathy (named ability) unlimited range. Communication is only out to 30 feet, but the type-named ability is unranged. While the telepathy only works with other nagas, mindsight doesn't get two wooden nickels about that either. It's a CLEAR exploit, and a hugely ridiculous read of the RAW, but it does exist. I'm ruling that it runs off the 30ft range rather the the unspecified range for general communication. It's still EX, though, which is incredibly weird and incredibly useful.

Full text of the relevant telepathy variant:

Telepathy (Ex):
Nagas are all part of a communal consciousness
they call the Akasha. This shared consciousness facilitates
communication between nagas near and far, and contains the
memories of their entire species. A group of nagas
within 30 feet of each other are in constant communication.
If one is aware of a particular danger, they all are.
If one in a group is not flat-footed, none of them are.
No naga in a group is considered flanked unless all are.


Greensnake naga has superb stat adjusts, on the far side of crazy for LA +1, telepathy either 30ft or infinite range depending on your reading, a favored class of rogue, and for females, starts with the alternate form ability which may qualify you for some interesting PrCs even if it's limited to just one form.

Tide's Stamp of Recognition:
When the best case on a race's power level makes you want to eat the damn book...
And the worst case makes you call down a gentleman's agreement....

[Saph]

So... all your future characters are going to be arcane casters?

Nah, I found another way to get the ability. I like playing Good-aligned characters, so I prefer not using Mindbender. Besides, the skill pre-reqs are a pain.

The naga's a new one on me, though. :) What is it with WotC and reptilians with silly abilities?

- Saph

[JeminiZero]

Nah, I found another way to get the ability. I like playing Good-aligned characters, so I prefer not using Mindbender. Besides, the skill pre-reqs are a pain.


Do tell. I could use me some Mindsight. :smallbiggrin:

In other news, I have a build sitting in Tide's inbox waiting for his approval (*pokes Tide*). But since he is a thought experiment rather than anything I intend to use in the Dungeon, that detail is unnecessary for an unofficial match.

So who feels like having an exhibition match? Mind you, this one is *supposed* to be tier 1, so you may want to take this up only if you are feeling really confident. (Although in truth, he punches like an Elf Maiden, has less AC than a level 1 fighter, no mirror image/concealment or the like, and is crap in terms of offensive spells.)

[Saph]

Well, I've got a character that might work, though mine is more like tier 1-2 rather than a true tier 1.

That said, I've had quite a lot of fights, so it's probably someone else's turn if anyone wants to step up.

- Saph

[T.G. Oskar]

Well, as I mentioned, I have a character in the waiting room, probably getting bored. Again, it only needs a little checkup, but I don't think it's too bad (just a replacement of skill points before it goes).

In case of measurement, it should be tier 3-4 (in theory a Tier 5 class being boosted as per Zeal's guide to a tier 4, but boosted to a low tier 3 based on the magic item choices), so virtually any well-optimized tier 3 should beat the guy down. Around the moment of choice, aside from being a bit underpowered, it should be upper tier 4 - lower tier 3, but a few levels and it should get to a rather solid tier 3. It could be a high tier 3 if a specific ability could be allowed, but since that ability is rather barred, it causes a bit of trouble.

I *could* measure an out-of-tier choice, but it would be a bit overkill. Still, I'm intrigued by JZ's defensively weak tier 1. Something tells me he doesn't care much about offensive anyways....

[Signmaker]

It's...probably a bad thing that I have no idea what you guys mean by tiers.

In other news, I've got approximately 10k left to spend on my druid before it's ready to go, as well as choosing a 12th level feat.

Why oh why is there no druid variant that ditches Animal Companion that also doesn't specificially boost Wildshape?

[lvl 1 sharnian]

I think my character's a tier 2, but he may of been dropped to tier 3 or maybe even 4 by spell, class*, and magic item choices.

*what do you think about spontaneous mystic theurge?

[JeminiZero]

I *could* measure an out-of-tier choice, but it would be a bit overkill. Still, I'm intrigued by JZ's defensively weak tier 1. Something tells me he doesn't care much about offensive anyways....


I do care. Its just that between all the crap I tried to fit in to make it work, I couldn't fit much in terms of secondary Offense anyway. Or primary Defences for that matter. Its a massively focused one trick pony, which will die horribly if its one trick fails. But by golly, its one heck of a trick.



Why oh why is there no druid variant that ditches Animal Companion that doesn't also boost Wildshape?


Actually, the front page states that "All druids are aspect druids as per UA" which can be found here (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/UA:Wild_Shape_Variant:_Aspect_of_Nature). So you don't get Wild Shape anyway.

[Signmaker]

Actually, the front page states that "All druids are aspect druids as per UA" which can be found here (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/UA:Wild_Shape_Variant:_Aspect_of_Nature). So you don't get Wild Shape anyway.

Hence my lament. My words just got twisted around. >>

[T.G. Oskar]

It's...probably a bad thing that I have no idea what you guys mean by tiers.

HUZZAH!! (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) This is mostly the tiers we speak up. Basically, it's a method of measuring the relative strength of the classes, in this case by how well they do their work.

Tier 1s effectively replace all classes because they have methods in which they can outperform 2 or more of the classes which specialize in each of the roles in party (tank, damage dealer, battlefield controller, skillmonkey, healer, buffer, face)

Tier 2s can't do the same work than Tier 1s, but they can do well in a variety of situations. They're never challenged because they're out of their area of expertise.

Tier 3s are supposed to be experts in a specific role, but they aren't so bad in dabbling on other roles. If, for example, the buffer were to go out, a Tier 3 can do some of the work, but not all.

Tier 4s are those that can only perform well in a single role and fail in others, or that attempt to do too much yet can't effectively replace the original.

Tier 5s supposedly can't even do their supposed role well. These are the classes which are mostly dip-alicious, or those who depend on one-trick ponies to be spectacular, but when out of their league, they are effectively on a slump.

Tier 6s can't even do one-trick ponies.

Tier Truenamer is special, because the class completely depends on a skill check and has a DC that's particularly ridiculous. It's a class that could effectively act as a Tier 3, perhaps even Tier 2 were it to make the skill checks successfully, but the unfair scaling in DC effectively places it under Tier 6. So it's a class that completely sucks unless you manage to optimize the skill checks, in which suddenly the class becomes much more powerful.


Why oh why is there no druid variant that ditches Animal Companion that also doesn't specificially boost Wildshape?

Well...technically, if you were to be a Shifter, and not playing under Tide's altered rules, you could get the Shifter Druid level replacement and get Beast Spirit, which effectively replaces your animal companion for a spirit that gives you quite effective boosts. Combine that with Wild Cohort and suddenly, things get VERY nasty, even more if the Wild Cohort becomes a Fleshraker or something.


I do care. Its just that between all the crap I tried to fit in to make it work, I couldn't fit much in terms of secondary Offense anyway. Or primary Defences for that matter. Its a massively focused one trick pony, which will die horribly if its one trick fails. But by golly, its one heck of a trick.

See, that's what intrigues me. I'll have to see that build in action to properly judge it, but it must be pretty scary so as to become careless in defenses and effective counters.

Then again, my character is a kind of one-trick pony guy as well. Except the trick behaves more like an Exalted combo (not BoED, the Exalted books) than a very stringent one-trick pony.

[ex cathedra]

I'm having trouble filling my low-level cleric spell slots. Can anyone suggest anything especially useful in the 0-3 range?

[Signmaker]

Hm...I'd rank my Druid as Tier 3 then.

[Oslecamo]

Tier Truenamer is special, because the class completely depends on a skill check and has a DC that's particularly ridiculous. It's a class that could effectively act as a Tier 3, perhaps even Tier 2 were it to make the skill checks successfully, but the unfair scaling in DC effectively places it under Tier 6. So it's a class that completely sucks unless you manage to optimize the skill checks, in which suddenly the class becomes much more powerful.

Wow, you know what, wizard should also be under tier 6, because if you don't optimize your int score, you're just a commoner! But since a truenamer who doesn't truename is worst than a commoner, then a wizard who doesn't cast is also worst, by that guide's twisted logic.

And artificer too, because if you don't read the proper material, you don't know how to craft magic items, meaning the artificer will be as strong as a commoner also!

Seriously stop implying with the truenamer. Powergamers don't have any trouble giving custom items of +9000 UMD to their artificers, why do they have so much trouble improving the truenamer's main skill?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Since when do most/all powergamers give custom items of +lots to their artificer for UMD?

I think you're making an incredibly inaccurate generalization.

[Doc Roc]

Most of us do give as many +x items to our artificers as we can. In fact, if possible we has them craft their own, using the bonus-type-shuffle ability that they gain late in life..


You are both good to launch, Oskar, Jemini.

I'm very fond of the greensnake naga. :)

Our discussion of tiers hinges on a slightly different scale:

Tier -1:These are builds that transcend normal game law. You know that I mean. They are banned in spirit and letter. Think Gate chains or most infinite builds.

Tier 0: Indestructible builds, or builds that are wholly non-interactive. Most of these are based on out and out exploits, like my Algernon, or LoP's TBoS. I've explicitly banned as many of these as I could cover.

Tier .5: Builds that represent serious optimization kung-fu, and may not be killable through anything approaching normal means. Good examples are escaping me at the moment.

Tier 1: Heavily optimized characters sufficiently powerful to play the initiative game or in the cases of casters, completely obviate the game entirely. These characters have a wide range of tricks, but may fill only one archetypal role well. They fill it in a way that completely dominates any encounter involving it. I will likely be reluctant to let the higher end of tier 1 into a game.

Tier 1.5: This is where a lot of ToS builds sit. Powerful, effective, with a strong range of defensive options and elegant tricks. Most things tier three and under are just fodder for a tier 1.5. A good example is the Ruby Shadow.

Tier 2: This is the higher end of most practical optimization, and is generally somewhere between powerful and heartwrenchingly elegant. Good stuff, deadly, sufficient for all but the most deadly of ToS matches. Good examples are really well-built summoner druids, or a strong but not fully articulated malconvoker build.

Tier 3: This is the classical target realm of practical optimization. These characters have it where it counts, and may nuture one single really powerful combo for emergencies. They're steady, reliable, and something that most GMs would consider allowing at their table.

Tier 4: Lower power characters built for games with less-experienced GMs or players, or people who have intentionally laid out either literal house rules or rules of the house that limit power literally or figuratively. Most of these are not suited to the test of spite.

Tier 5: Lightly optimized builds, often referred to politely as organic builds by their proponents. Don't dip, don't pick feats for power reasons, but choose idly from a good subset of material. Many of these can still be table breakers, but their survivability at the ToS limits to zero. Good examples include mystic theurge with no early entry.

Tier 6: Unoptimized builds, or builds that are laid around a single clunky idea that doesn't express well within the game world.
I have a few of these myself, to be honest. These are not suited for ToS play.

[ex cathedra]

Uh, no.

A wizard doesn't have to start with a +2 Int race and an 18. A wizard can start with a 15 in int and still function.

Without heavily optimizing, the Truenamer's class features make it unplayable. The fact that even if you do dump large amounts of skill points, feats, and your WBL into optimizing your checks, you still have to accommodate the fact that you can only Truename so often in one day before the DCs scale to your current modifier.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I made a truenamer once. It was hard.

[Doc Roc]

Truenamer optimization (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=614007), by the numbers. If this isn't enough, I'm going to have to admit that you're just not interested in reasonable debate.

[Oslecamo]

Who gave a custom item of +lots to their artificer for UMD?

I think you're making an incredibly inaccurate generalization.

Great part of the "artificers are the brokez" argument is sky rocketing your UMD skill so you can get loads of free metamagic in your items.

Incantrix is also based on sky rocketing your spellcraft skill for free metamagic on your spells. If your spellcraft isn't optimized, the prc really isn't that bad.

But improving truenamer skill? Blasphemy!

(Note: the guy who wrote the guide claimed that a truenamer whitout truenaming was worst than a commoner. He also claims the commoner is a player class. Talck about "inaccurate generalization")

[Doc Roc]

Are you trying to tell me you think T_G doesn't know his ****?



In this case, Os, I am willing to formally challenge you to bring a truenamer into the test of spite to fight my Dweller on the Threshold.

T_G is my friend, a good dude, and a well reasoned man. I don't mind you insulting his optimization*, but at this point you've begun to insult his intellect.
* Though I think it makes you look like a fool.

[ex cathedra]

Would you be willing to un-ban Item Familiars for him?

It's kind of necessary to even make the class break even.

[Talic]

Great part of the "artificers are the brokez" argument is sky rocketing your UMD skill so you can get loads of free metamagic in your items.

Incantrix is also based on sky rocketing your spellcraft skill for free metamagic on your spells. If your spellcraft isn't optimized, the prc really isn't that bad.

But improving truenamer skill? Blasphemy!

(Note: the guy who wrote the guide claimed that a truenamer whitout truenaming was worst than a commoner. He also claims the commoner is a player class. Talck about "inaccurate generalization")




The problem with your reasoning is that Incantarix and Artificer are effective, and on par with any class (at a minimum) WITHOUT any skill optimization cheese.

Truenamer is utterly worthless unless you utilize those abilities.

In other words:

Competent classes that border on broken with ridiculous skill optimization

vs

Worthless class that borders on competent with ridiculous skill optimization


See the difference?

[Doc Roc]

Sure, if he asks for them. I do so reluctantly. I request that a neutral third party be willing to vet our sheets. I'll need a few days to get my stuff ready. I was really hoping to avoid getting involved in the ToS myself directly, but I suppose it was only a matter of time.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

(Note: the guy who wrote the guide claimed that a truenamer whitout truenaming was worst than a commoner. He also claims the commoner is a player class. Talck about "inaccurate generalization")

Breathe. You have time to type things out properly before posting.


Great part of the "artificers are the brokez" argument is sky rocketing your UMD skill so you can get loads of free metamagic in your items.
Was it? I was not aware.

I heard they were broken because they could craft items of spells two or three levels before casters could get the spells.


Incantrix is also based on sky rocketing your spellcraft skill for free metamagic on your spells. If your spellcraft isn't optimized, the prc really isn't that bad.

I'm sorry, what?

Incantatrix has:

Cooperative Metamagic (Su): An incantatrix can apply any metamagic feat she knows (except Silent Spell, Still Spell, Quicken Spell) to a spell being cast by a willing allied spellcaster. Using this ability is a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity (you may use this as if casting defensively), just like casting a spell. The incantatrix must ready an action to use cooperative metamagic when her ally begins casting and must be adjacent to the caster. To succeed, Incantatrix must make a Spellcraft check with DC 18 + 3 x Modified Spell Level (Modified Spell Level = the level the spell would be if prepared with applied Metamagic Feat). An incantatrix can use this ability 3+Int times per day.

Metamagic Effect (Su): An incantatrix can apply a metamagic feat she knows to a persistent spell effect that is already in place (for example, Persist a previously cast Divine Power). To use this ability, the incantatrix must be adjacent to or within the spell effect and make a Spellcraft check with DC 18 + 3 x Modified Spell Level. Spell slot increases for metamagic feats that were applied to affect spell's casting (Quicken Spell, Still Spell, etc.) do not count towards this modified level. Metamagic that changes the spell's effect (Widen Spell, Empower Spell, etc.) do count. An incantatrix can use this ability 3+Int times per day. This is is a full-round action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

Metamagic Spell Trigger (Su): An incantatrix can apply a metamagic feat she knows to the effect of a spell trigger item (generally a wand). To use this ability, she must have the appropriate item creation feat to make the spell trigger item in question. Using metamagic spell trigger expends a number of additional charges from the item equal to the number of effective spell levels the metamagic feat would add to the spell. Still Spell confers no benefits when applied to a spell trigger item. Can't use with a spell trigger item that doesn't have charges.

Seize Concentration (Su): You can wrest control of a spell that requires concentration from another spellcaster within 30 feet. If the target is willing, the transfer is automatic. Otherwies, Incantatrix and the target spellcaster make opposed caster level checks (divine casters recieve +2 on this check). If the incantatrix wins, she gains control of the spell for as long as she maintains concentration or until the original spell duration expires. The spell functions as though the incantatrix were the caster except that any variables determined when the spell was cast (including caster level) remain as determined by the original caster. Original caster can be affected by his own spells, though he gains +2 circumstance on saves vs. it. If Incantatrix lets his concentration lapse before the spell duration expires, original caster may reassert control with a Spellcraft check of DC 15+spell level. If he fails, nobody controls the spell.

Instant Metamagic (Su): An incantatrix can apply a single metamagic feat she possesses to a spell without preparing it that way beforehand (if she prepares spells) or increasing its casting time (if she casts spontaneously). No check or anything. 1 use on level 7, 2 on level 9.

Snatch Spell (Su): An incantatrix can attempt to seize control over a persistent effect created by another spellcaster. The effect may not depend on concentration but still relies on or responds to the caster's controls (such as a summon monster spell or spiritual weapon, but not a wall of fire or acid fog). Effect must be within 30 feet of the incantatrix. The target spellcaster and incantatrix make an opposed caster level check, divine spellcaster gets +2 bonus. The spell functions as though the incantatrix were the caster except that any variables determined when the spell was cast (including caster level) remain as determined by the original caster. Original caster can be affected by his own spells, though he gains +2 circumstance on saves vs. it. If the spell is dismissible and the incantatrix wishes to dismiss it, she must make a second successful opposed caster level check. If she fails, spell remains in effect and control reverts to the original caster.

Improved Metamagic (Su): An incantatrix reduces 1 from the level adjustment of any metamagic feat she applies to a spell (minimum +1 spell level). This benefit also applies to the incantatrix's other class features reducing the Spellcraft DCs for applying Metamagic Effect or Cooperative Metamagic and spending fewer charges when using Metamagic Spell Trigger.

Co-Operative Metamagic has a DC of DC 18 + 3 x Modified Spell Level.

That's DC 45 for a 9th level spell. A 20th level wizard without opimizing his spellcraft has +2 from K. Arcana, 23 ranks, and let's say an INT of 24 for a +7 modifier. That's +32, so he succeeds on a roll of 13 or higher.

The likely INT mod of a wizard at level 20 is going to be 18+5 levels+5tome+6 item for an INT of 34, modifier 12

So the final spellcraft check of our non optimized for spellcraft Incantatrix is 12+2+23 =37. Success on a roll of 8 or higher. Since you get 16 uses per day, this 40% failure rate isn't likely to be a problem.

Metamagic Effect (Su): Same DC as Co-Operative.

Seize Concentration (Su): Opposed Caster Level checks.

Instant Metamagic (Su): Doesn't require spellcraft.

Improved Metamagic (Su): Doesn't require spellcraft. This alone makes the prestige class broken.

Metamagic feats: Don't require spellcraft.

So how is Incantatrix worthless if you don't optimize spellcraft again? Perhaps you would care to point out if I have missed anything? From what I can see it is still broken even without the two class features that depend on Spellcraft.

[Doc Roc]

You forgot the stack of free metamagic feats. :)

Incantatrix is and always will be banned in my games.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

In this case, Os, I am willing to formally challenge you to bring a truenamer into the test of spite to fight my Dweller on the Threshold.

Can Baron Deth Munchenhausen (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=27916) join?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

This game is at ECL 13. You're looking at DC 41-43 checks to affect your opponent, getting harder as the day wears on. Yes, it's possible to make those, but doing so requires max ranks, Int on the level of a Wizard(17, levels, Grey Elf), a custom item, and 2 feats(+29 before the custom item). An it's still not guaranteed. An artificer requires...max ranks, some Int. Stavificer, which crafts it's own custom items, gets great bennis from the items, but still isn't forced to use them. Incantrix gets enough +s just from the ranks and Int, which have other uses. You're talking about devoting massive in-character eresources to the purpose of being competent, while a Stavificer or Incantor is broken beyond playability even in the ToS, and requires fewer resources.

[T.G. Oskar]

Wow, you know what, wizard should also be under tier 6, because if you don't optimize your int score, you're just a commoner! But since a truenamer who doesn't truename is worst than a commoner, then a wizard who doesn't cast is also worst, by that guide's twisted logic.

And artificer too, because if you don't read the proper material, you don't know how to craft magic items, meaning the artificer will be as strong as a commoner also!

Seriously stop implying with the truenamer. Powergamers don't have any trouble giving custom items of +9000 UMD to their artificers, why do they have so much trouble improving the truenamer's main skill?

Which is why my statement is, albeit not politically correct or perhaps even correct at all, at least accurate.

Look at the Truenamer's utterances. Not all of them are gamebreaking, true. But they are quite effective, and through a judicious use of utterances, given that you could get an auto-success on the skill check, you could heal outside of battle much better than a Cleric, you could essentially use Haste several times (even though for one character), and so on. Furthermore, you could alter the landscape of the battle through an utterance, or provide great power to magic items at all. This makes it a solid tier 2 or tier 3, because it can do lots of stuff quite well.

However, what ruins it at the end is that, UNLESS YOU OPTIMIZE, the Truenamer slowly becomes weak until it becomes near-worthless, because the DC for the wider range of abilities increases both with CR AND amount of uses. A Wizard can play well moderately optimized: we dealt with the Fireball phenomena, which is generally seen as a weak choice even for a blaster, but it has its uses. Generally, unless you play the Wizard without an inch of common sense (the very description itself tells you they favor Intelligence!), a Wizard will probably suck.

Truenamers, on the other hand, have a hard time playing as-is. General, common sense implies that you'll raise the Truenamer skill check as high as you can, and that you'll raise Intelligence as high as you can: that would leave something around the realm of +30 to the skill check at level 20. Meanwhile, by that level, the DC of the utterances has a general level of 55-60, too high for a simple skill check to pass, and each utterance generally adding +2 to the DC. It's because of the difference in scaling between the skill check modifier and the DC of the save that the Truenamer is placed in a lower tier than the Commoner. By no means this means it's horrible; it's just too difficult for a person to use without optimization. Which is one of the general purposes of the thread, which generally lurks around in optimization forums. And yes, they've optimized pretty effectively the Truenamer: the result is as said above, a pretty effective class.

Which is why I don't see the reason to this outburst. I didn't say the Truenamer sucks because of personal opinion (I actually like the Truenamer concept, and would love to use it every now and then); I just based upon a very respectable guide of classes' general strengths and formulated an opinion in which I attempt to explain why the Truenamer is placed so down, right to the point of saying that it could be much better if it weren't because of the stringent restrictions.

In fact, most people aren't bashing the Truenamer because it sucks or something (be very careful of how you perceive Jaron's work); they lament that the working mechanic is flawed, and could use some aid. Tide placed a good example of the optimizer community putting to work their minds in optimizing Truenaming: the general costs imply that, while a bit difficult, it's doable.

I'd advice some calm. No one here is saying the Truenamer sucks; we're just pointing the general opinion of a respectable source in which they explain the reasons. I could have my issues with Jaron's guide: Paladins are placed as tier 5, and at times relegated to mere "dip" class, but I'm fascinated by Paladins. I understand the reasoning behind the guide's determination, tho (which is the resumed opinion of several people of the community/ies), and do my best to work a build that does what I want, while still being effective. I've tried thinking of builds, used some of the fixes (OW4's fix, for example), and tried to do a good look at the expanded Paladin spell list to determine some of the best spells a Paladin can have. That doesn't mean I can't agree with the determination of the general community just because I like a class over another, or just because I've found it to be much better.

P.S.: I laughed at the moment Tide defended T_G's honor. Any newcomer who doesn't know who Tleilaxu is may get a bit confused and think he's defending my honor...

Not that I'm calling Oslecamo a newbie, or that I'm trying to insult Ghola. Just pointing out.

[Talic]

You forgot the stack of free metamagic feats. :)

Incantatrix is and always will be banned in my games.

And the full caster progression.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

You forgot the stack of free metamagic feats. :)

Incantatrix is and always will be banned in my games.

And the full caster progression.

Dammit people!

I suppose you'll be reminding me of the will save next?

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Tier 5: Lightly optimized builds, often referred to politely as organic builds by their proponents. Don't dip, don't pick feats for power reasons, but choose idly from a good subset of material. Many of these can still be table breakers, but their survivability at the ToS limits to zero. Good examples include mystic theurge with no early entry.

Aww... my build made the list, but I revised it and sent you the PM. So little feat space...

[Talic]

I'd put my current (A dual-progression) as a solid tier 2, personally, maybe 1.5. It has some good stuffs for offense.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Where would a Bard/Ur Priest/Sublime Chord/Mystic Theurge rank? Tier 2?

[ex cathedra]

I'm not all that skilled at judging power, but I'd say that my current ToS entry is 3, perhaps 2.5. I really could have improved my spell choice. My next character... will likely be around the same level. Perhaps lower, considering the amount of defense I'm giving up.

[Signmaker]

8500 gp left, and no idea on how to spend it. Joy.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Bottle of Air?

[Signmaker]

Bottle of Air?

Reaching an air supply is (theoretically) not going to be an issue for me. Alternatively, if we're talking water, Druid. Even aspect druids have a water form.

[Doc Roc]

Where would a Bard/Ur Priest/Sublime Chord/Mystic Theurge rank? Tier 2?

Depends. I have a similar build that sneaks its way into focchy lyrist. :S

[Signmaker]

Got the OK from Tide, so Emelyn is ready for a match.

[tarbrush]

Depends. I have a similar build that sneaks its way into focchy lyrist. :S

I could never make that work without then looking at it and thinking "yay, full bab. That makes up for all the bab I lost getting into this stupid class".

Incidentally, does it involve torturing druids, or did you bite the bullet and take a druid level?

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Battle between me and you Sign?

And if anyone knows, do mirror images turn invisible when you cast invisibility?

[Signmaker]

Battle between me and you Sign?

And if anyone knows, do mirror images turn invisible when you cast invisibility?

Unofficially, I suppose. It's my first time in a long, long time that's I've done PbP, and the campaigns I've played on gitp never really shot off.

And I don't know the answer to that.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Here's the battle link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6565582#post6565582)

[Signmaker]

Kay. Let's rock this boat.

[imperialspectre]

You know, there's an interesting tendency I'm seeing in ToS builds. A lot of people are dumping a CL or two in order to get away with something, whether it's Saph's beguiler theurge, Talic's cerebremancer, or whatever.

Is it possible that when it comes to solo builds, the rule that "Thou shalt not sacrifice caster levels" isn't quite what we used to think it was, even beyond the standard exception for Malconvoker?

[Signmaker]

You know, there's an interesting tendency I'm seeing in ToS builds. A lot of people are dumping a CL or two in order to get away with something, whether it's Saph's beguiler theurge, Talic's cerebremancer, or whatever.

Is it possible that when it comes to solo builds, the rule that "Thou shalt not sacrifice caster levels" isn't quite what we used to think it was, even beyond the standard exception for Malconvoker?

The tradeoff's pretty much 7th level spells or something else. Depending how juicy that 'something' else is, it's an option.

[JeminiZero]

See, that's what intrigues me. I'll have to see that build in action to properly judge it, but it must be pretty scary so as to become careless in defenses and effective counters.


Oh it does have defences. Just not AC. Or Concealment. Or Mirror Image. Or HIPS. Come to think of it, the Saves are pretty crap too.

And it just got approved by Tide, so its obviously not that broken.

Uh, on hindsight, I think it should be downgraded to tier 2 or 3. :smalltongue: Anyone want to have a go?



8500 gp left, and no idea on how to spend it. Joy.


Eternal Wands maybe. Pack them with spells you will not normally prepare, but which may need occasionally. E.g. An eternal Wand of blindsight (lvl 2, 3 mins, 4420 gp) is good enough to take care of visual problems when you happen to encounter something invisible.

Otherwise my characters will readily accept donations :smalltongue:

[Talic]

You know, there's an interesting tendency I'm seeing in ToS builds. A lot of people are dumping a CL or two in order to get away with something, whether it's Saph's beguiler theurge, Talic's cerebremancer, or whatever.

Is it possible that when it comes to solo builds, the rule that "Thou shalt not sacrifice caster levels" isn't quite what we used to think it was, even beyond the standard exception for Malconvoker?

The cerebremancer gets around it in that he's still ML 13, and many level 1 psionic powers are frickin' beast, when you augment them to 13 points... So I had a psion side that was beef. The caster side suffered a bit, but I was essentially a full psion, with level 5 wizard spells too. So, I didn't really break that rule. I just took practiced manifester, and it was all good.

EDIT: Oh, and I'm a fan of Eternal Wands of Gaseous Form. There is very little that turning into a fart won't fix.

EDIT2: Defenses? Immune to damage, perhaps? 400 HP? LOL

[ex cathedra]

It all depends on the dual-progression. As Talic pointed out, Psions have an advantage in the versatility afforded to them by augmentation. There are always exceptions. I gave up two weak arcane caster levels in my current build. I think what I gained was worth it, however.

Anyways, how much does a pet scorpion cost?

[Doc Roc]

Incidentally, does it involve torturing druids, or did you bite the bullet and take a druid level?

You know the torturing druids thing?
I helped re-popularize it. :: gulp :: I'm Doc Rock from 339.

[ex cathedra]

...
but seriously, I need itty bitty scorpions in itty bitty boxes for giant vermin purposes. gp?

Just in case things don't go well.

[Signmaker]

Tide, we need to have a chat about weather effects. Mainly, your rules on them. The DMG is pretty vague.

[Doc Roc]

I'd say around 60 GP for normal bitty-bitty scorpions.

Oh god, weather rules. I mean, I saw that on your sheet.... Okay, what do you want to know? I'm easiest to reach on some form of IM client.

[Signmaker]

Control Winds and Tornado effects. It's a large can of worms.

[Doc Roc]

Okay, that's a long real-time conversation. Please select a method of contacting me in real time. :)

[JeminiZero]

EDIT2: Defenses? Immune to damage, perhaps? 400 HP? LOL


I wish. Unfortunately Troll-Blooded is in a Dragon Magazine, or else I would have tried to create a 'lite' version of the Emerald Legionnaire.

And how exactly do you get 400 HP at ECL 13? You would need like d12 HD, and a Con score of 58.

[Talic]

I wish. Unfortunately Troll-Blooded is in a Dragon Magazine, or else I would have tried to create a 'lite' version of the Emerald Legionnaire.

And how exactly do you get 400 HP at ECL 13? You would need like d12 HD, and a Con score of 58.

Let's be honest. The D12 HD isn't what'd do it. LOL

[ex cathedra]

400 actual HP at ECL13 is a bit beyond my reach, but 400 effective hp is much more reasonable.

[Signmaker]

With enough preparation, a Shambling Mound could hook itself up to a lightning farm and pull numbers like that...

[Talic]

Mmhmm.

And 400 Effective HP is cake. At level 13? I can get 900 effective HP without even trying.

[Doc Roc]

Off to ban shambling mounds. I always forget about that one. :)

[Signmaker]

Glad to be of help.

[Talic]

Off to ban shambling mounds. I always forget about that one. :)

I don't recall any spells that shift you specifically into one of those, so it's probably safe.

[Doc Roc]

Mindswitch is technically not banned, and neither is Possess or technically Two Become One. So... banned shamblers are now.

[Signmaker]

Can't be too careful.

Also, Hate Wall of Dispel. :smallfrown:

[lvl 1 sharnian]

And for extra funness, if you walk through the affected area again. I get to dispel Again. Yay!!! Luckily it's hidden

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Incidentally, does it involve torturing druids, or did you bite the bullet and take a druid level?

Mindrape

Permanency Tongues

Two most obvious ways to do it.

[Claudius Maximus]

Concerning Wall of Dispel Magic, are you sure that it hits items? The spell says that "anyone passing through" is affected. That could be interpreted to mean that only creatures are targeted. Also, are you sure that you can drop it on top of someone? They might have to actually move through the wall to be affected.

Sorry about this, I just really want to know how to adjudicate this spell properly.

[Signmaker]

Concerning Wall of Dispel Magic, are you sure that it hits items? The spell says that "anyone passing through" is affected. That could be interpreted to mean that only creatures are targeted. Also, are you sure that you can drop it on top of someone? They might have to actually move through the wall to be affected.

You raise an interesting point, sir.

[Talic]

Mindrape and mindswitch? Wouldn't it just be easier to not allow them during character creation? It's not easy to get a shambling mound in there, ya know.

[Saph]

Mmhmm.

And 400 Effective HP is cake. At level 13? I can get 900 effective HP without even trying.

Yes, but then it becomes an issue of what else you can do. High HP is great if you can get it without sacrificing anything else, but if you have to give up other things to get it, it becomes more of a balancing act. The ToS characters have been quite varied so far.

- Saph

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Concerning Wall of Dispel Magic, are you sure that it hits items? The spell says that "anyone passing through" is affected. That could be interpreted to mean that only creatures are targeted. Also, are you sure that you can drop it on top of someone? They might have to actually move through the wall to be affected.

Sorry about this, I just really want to know how to adjudicate this spell properly.

It's hard because the writers' RAI does not always translate into RAW.

What we have here is either a wall that does targeted dispels against a person, or dispels everything that goes through it. The literal text seems to support the first intepretation, though it is not outside the realm of possibility that they meant the second one...

[Claudius Maximus]

Good point. One wonders if it attempts to dispel magic arrows or spell effects that pass through. The Otiluke's Dispelling Screen spells are a bit better written in this regard.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

You raise an unfortunate point
I'm pretty sure about the targeting items, if it doesn't, ignore the posts about magic items

the 2nd part not so sure, maybe call that it is activated by breaking the continuous wall area triggers the dispel meaning since your in the area to begin with you automatically trigger it.

But this doesn't matter as I got screwed over by the tornado to begin with.

On a side note, what happens when a bag of holding is suppressed? Unable to pull out stuff or stuff flies out for 1d6 each. I'm Hoping for the second.

[JeminiZero]

Also, Hate Wall of Dispel. :smallfrown:


I believe wall of dispel only takes effect if you walk through it. You can't cast it on your foe like that.

[Claudius Maximus]

On a side note, what happens when a bag of holding is suppressed? Unable to pull out stuff or stuff flies out for 1d6 each. I'm Hoping for the second.


I'm almost positive that it's temporarily sealed. The items aren't lost, but you can't access them.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

On a side note, what happens when a bag of holding is suppressed? Unable to pull out stuff or stuff flies out for 1d6 each. I'm Hoping for the second.

You aren't able to pull anything out iirc.

[Signmaker]

Nifty and nifty. I like my druid even more now. :smallsmile:

[Talic]

Yes, but then it becomes an issue of what else you can do. High HP is great if you can get it without sacrificing anything else, but if you have to give up other things to get it, it becomes more of a balancing act. The ToS characters have been quite varied so far.

- Saph

Not really. If I shifted my Psion's race to elan, and gave him enhanced resilience, I'd have 500 EHP, and still be able to do everything I did that match, with enough PP left over to Nova one other person.

[Saph]

Not really. If I shifted my Psion's race to elan, and gave him enhanced resilience, I'd have 500 EHP, and still be able to do everything I did that match, with enough PP left over to Nova one other person.

That's not techically extra HP, though; it's a way of reducing damage. Most of the time it amounts to the same thing . . . but not always.

[Talic]

That's not techically extra HP, though; it's a way of reducing damage. Most of the time it amounts to the same thing . . . but not always.

That's why it's "Effective HP", rather than "HP".

Other ways include Temp HP buffs.

[T.G. Oskar]

Oh it does have defences. Just not AC. Or Concealment. Or Mirror Image. Or HIPS. Come to think of it, the Saves are pretty crap too.

And it just got approved by Tide, so its obviously not that broken.

Uh, on hindsight, I think it should be downgraded to tier 2 or 3. :smalltongue: Anyone want to have a go?

Well, given that you and I haven't found a partner, I guess we last approved must earn our spot?

Also, just now I noticed about the existence of the Monk's handbook. Pretty interestingly enough, I fell into most of the same conclusions, although dman and I have a few discrepancies. Still, it's pretty impressive: he read my choice were I to reach 12th level. And also, it gave a good suggestion as to the capstone PrC, oddly enough, though I'd also work with something else.

So...willing to give a go? I need to see how much I can learn from PBP and how much I can corrupt with freeform roleplaying.

[JeminiZero]

Well, given that you and I haven't found a partner, I guess we last approved must earn our spot?


Actually, I am fighting (read: annoying endlessly with HiPS abuse) Tarbrush right now (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118424). This extra character is supposed to be for an exhibition match.

But if you don't mind that, we can still go ahead.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Sorry about my long absence, I just got my internet back...

I am willing to face anyone with my Tier 3 build (thats the level Im used to going for, because I usually play with Tier 4.5 people :smalltongue:)

Anyone game?

And Tide, what is the ruling on the interaction between Schism and Practiced Manifester? Saph thought they didnt work together, and I went along with that, but, as I may be building another Psion, what do you think?

[T.G. Oskar]

Actually, I am fighting (read: annoying endlessly with HiPS abuse) Tarbrush right now (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118424). This extra character is supposed to be for an exhibition match.

But if you don't mind that, we can still go ahead.

Um, sure. You're less of a first timer than I do, but the dual kind of training should make the combat inspiring.

Just as a heads-up: I love description.

[Doc Roc]

And Tide, what is the ruling on the interaction between Schism and Practiced Manifester? Saph thought they didnt work together, and I went along with that, but, as I may be building another Psion, what do you think?

Need some time to think about it.

[Saph]

Schism is a really confusing power.

Schism description says, "Your second mind can manifest powers using your power point reserve, but only as if your manifester level were six lower than it is." It doesn't say whether that counts as lowering your actual, real manifester level, though, and it isn't clear from the rules whether Practised Manifester boosts up your extra minds as well as your own.

It's arguable and a DM could rule it either way.

[T.G. Oskar]

I'd say it stacks, since Practiced Manifested keys off the actual HD, not the top manifester level. But that's me. In either case, it would be a bit of a pointless thing to get Practiced Manifester just for the moments you're going to use Schism, since for the rest of the time you're not split-minded you'd be using a better feat.

The only references would be Clone or Simulacrum, and both usually determine that your HD is limited or reduced, so through the same methods, Schism would work in a similar way (it does not reduce your HD but rather your ML). And still, it reduces the ML by six, so even one take of Practiced Manifester (expending a potentially valuable feat slot) would reduce the penalty by a -4, even after accounting any other items or class skills which increment ML.

I'd say yes to it, but only because it only affects Schism if your ML is equal to your HD. But, that's me.

[Saph]

And, for those who are interested in the Test of Spite: Monkening challenge, we've just kicked off encounter number 2. Hydra fight!

(And, apparently, I'm now a troll.)

[tarbrush]

You know the torturing druids thing?
I helped re-popularize it. :: gulp :: I'm Doc Rock from 339.

I've always loved dual and treble threat characters, so an effective Lyrist build has always been my Holy Grail. And really, torturing Druids and using the evasion soulmeld are the only ways of doing it.

Then I discovered the ultimate ultimate magus abuse and forgot all about lyrists :). Speaking of such, I may have t0.5 character for your perusal soon. 9th levels spells at 13th is always good for a laugh

[Pharaoh's Fist]

And, for those who are interested in the Test of Spite: Monkening challenge, we've just kicked off encounter number 2. Hydra fight!

(And, apparently, I'm now a troll.)

Ten negative levels.

[Saph]

Ten negative levels.

By round 2. Against a creature with ten hit dice. That was supposed to be a threat.

At this point, I would normally tell you that I hate you, but given that I did the same thing to your character in our duel, I suppose this is justified payback. :P

- Saph

[Oslecamo]

Well, this time the dice gods favored Pharaoh, rolling max enervation damage both times.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I engaged in many unclean acts to curry their favor.

Btw, are you up a truenamer duel with Tide? I want to see if I can take him on.

Oh, and about that Incantatrix thing... unless I'm missing something, I still don't see how it's balanced if you don't have optimized spellcraft... I mean, the metamagic reduction alone is OP, the Instant Metamagic doesn't require spellcraft, and the bonus metamagic feats are just... urgh.

[Oslecamo]

Btw, are you up a truenamer duel with Tide? I want to see if I can take him on.

Well, I would definetely want to see said duel, but I don't get your question. You want me to help you with the optimization? To judge? To watch? Or something else?




Oh, and about that Incantatrix thing... unless I'm missing something, I still don't see how it's balanced if you don't have optimized spellcraft... I mean, the metamagic reduction alone is OP, the Instant Metamagic doesn't require spellcraft, and the bonus metamagic feats are just... urgh.

Well, it is still quite good if you don't optimize your spellcraft, but the reduced metamagic is almost a capstone ability, and the instant free metamagic is a limited number of times per day.

It's when you start using super spellcraft to make ALL your buffs last all day and then maximize/twin/empower/whatever at the same time them for fun and profit that it sudenly starts to stand out from all other wizard prcs.

So the super spellcraft basically makes an already quite good prc into something horribly degenerated that could probably challenge a planar sheperd head on.

[Talic]

Well, it is still quite good if you don't optimize your spellcraft, but the reduced metamagic is almost a capstone ability, and the instant free metamagic is a limited number of times per day. Considering that it advances casting at a fullcast rate? And that "limited" here is 3+int times? Assuming a reasonable 30 Int? 13 times. That's not very limited. Yes, even without the Spellcraft abilities, it stands out compared to other PrC's.


It's when you start using super spellcraft to make ALL your buffs last all day and then maximize/twin/empower/whatever at the same time them for fun and profit that it sudenly starts to stand out from all other wizard prcs.

So the super spellcraft basically makes an already quite good prc into something horribly degenerated that could probably challenge a planar sheperd head on.
That's the point. Spellcraft optimization (even only moderate optimization) turns something strong into something borked.

With truenamer, you need that optimization just to achieve parity.

[Oslecamo]

With truenamer, you need that optimization just to achieve parity.

No you don't.

If you just do the basics(put skill points, skill focus, improve your int), then you have parity. You also have 3/4 BAB, UMD and d8 HD for when your uterances fail. Cwarr samurai and ninja probably envy you.

If you bother to go a little beyond that, then you'll be spamming gate and other usefull abilities several times a day before anybody else can do it. You're a good gish.

If you optimize really well, you'll be suceeding in your checks even if you roll negatively, and then you're a mighty force to be reckoned with.

[JeminiZero]

Um, sure. You're less of a first timer than I do, but the dual kind of training should make the combat inspiring.

Just as a heads-up: I love description.


Sorry, I couldn't tell. Is that a yes or a no? :smalltongue:

Olo mentioned that he has a tier 3 that might be more appropriate for you. Otherwise if you really want to fight Alita (I just named her that :smallbiggrin:) start up a thread.

[Talic]

No you don't.

If you just do the basics(put skill points, skill focus, improve your int), then you have parity. You also have 3/4 BAB, UMD and d8 HD for when your uterances fail. Cwarr samurai and ninja probably envy you.
LOL. Let's look at level 13. Assume a +6 int item, a +2 int race, an 18 base, 3 level boosts, and 1 for middle aged. That's a 30 int. Let's assume 16 ranks. Let's not assume skill focus. That's skill-specific (optimization). So, a +26 check.

The base DC for truenaming a creature is 15+(2x CR), or 41 for a CR 13 creature. That's a 30% chance to succeed. Heck, let's give you skill focus. 45% chance. But wait. What if you're threatened? What if the target has High SR that needs to be overcome? -5 penalty for either of those. Down to 20% in those cases. And if you need to utter that critter again? Knock another 10% off those chances. And you'll likely need to utter again, because, after all that int focus? Your DC's are Cha based.

Yeah.

So, with little to no optimization, your truenamer has a failure chance equivalent to a Wizard in full plate with a buckler, or greater. Hardly optimal.


If you bother to go a little beyond that, then you'll be spamming gate and other usefull abilities several times a day before anybody else can do it. You're a good gish. Note: In a 28 point build, to even get moderate success? 16 points in int, 10 points Cha... Umm, 2 points Con? So we have an 7/7/9 for physical stats (remember middle-aged), and we're calling this a gish? Let's face it, with over half your int points needed just to have a snowball's chance, you're not gonna be cut out for gishing. ESPECIALLY with the -5 penalty to Utter Defensively.


If you optimize really well, you'll be suceeding in your checks even if you roll negatively, and then you're a mighty force to be reckoned with.
If you optimize REALLY well, yes, you'll succeed utterances against equivalent CR's with good success. A wizard, without optimization at all, starts with a 100% chance to cast a spell. A wizard optimized?

Well, there's a reason that the Tippyverse is dominated by wizards, not Truenamers.

This doesn't even account for the BBEG factor.

At CR +3, knock 30% off any chance above. Not only is it more likely to succeed on your mediocre saves, and beat your utterances with SR? But your chance of success drops even farther into the gutter.

[T.G. Oskar]

Sorry, I couldn't tell. Is that a yes or a no? :smalltongue:

Olo mentioned that he has a tier 3 that might be more appropriate for you. Otherwise if you really want to fight Alita (I just named her that :smallbiggrin:) start up a thread.

Well, I think I said yes to that. I just said that I loved description, because I can get long and winded when I write, sometimes even more when I'm posting a freeform roleplay/RP battle post.

Though, I usually let the other person make the thread. I'm a beginner, so I'd rather have someone show the ropes of making an RPB thread. Even later, I usually let the other person make the thread instead of me.

If you feel you can handle two battles, then no problem. Otherwise, if Olo wishes to duke it out and hand my character's buttocks in a silvered platter in a fair and reasonable way, then I'd advise him to make the thread.

Also, Alita? Seriously? Sounds to me like a Monk/Wizard or Artificer with Renegade Mastermaker levels or a Monk with a load of Warforged grafts and a Frenzy-like ability or something. It's a bit hard to pin down...

[Signmaker]

To those that saw my practice fight, what tier would my druid be in? I'm curious.

[JeminiZero]

Also, Alita? Seriously? Sounds to me like a Monk/Wizard or Artificer with Renegade Mastermaker levels or a Monk with a load of Warforged grafts and a Frenzy-like ability or something. It's a bit hard to pin down...


Eh... don't read too much into the name. After all, Jack the (Trap) Monkey is nothing not exactly like his Pirates of the Carribean counterpart. Asides from the tail. And maybe the fur. And maybe some other stuff as well. >_>

[Signmaker]

Eh... don't read too much into the name. After all, Jack the (Trap) Monkey is nothing not exactly like his Pirates of the Carribean counterpart. Asides from the tail. And maybe the fur. And maybe some other stuff as well. >_>

Oooh, will he be shot out of a cannon?:smalltongue:

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Anyone find use for suggestion in combat? I find it so vague to use. It says that the order needs to be reasonable so if cast in combat against a say... fighter/person with a stick, would it be reasonable to tell them to drop their stick and continue attacking?

[Signmaker]

Anyone find use for suggestion in combat? I find it so vague to use. It says that the order needs to be reasonable so if cast in combat against a say... fighter/person with a stick, would it be reasonable to tell them to drop their stick and continue attacking?

"Wuss, take me on like a real man, WITH YOUR FISTS!" sounds like a pretty good suggestion. Unless they happen to be a monk. Then you might run in to some problems. Then you suggest "Hey, isn't this inspiring? Maybe you should write a poem in calligraphy. Like, right now."

[lvl 1 sharnian]

I wonder if I can combine those two into a single suggestion. "WUSS, fight me like a real man, WITH YOUR FISTS, unless your Monk, then write a poem in calligraphy like a real monk, RIGHT NOW."

Or maybe pull a something like Dilbert did in one comic; a one sentence business proposal that spanned several pages through clever usage of semi colons.

[Signmaker]

It's a language-dependant spell. I don't think most opponents know lawyer-ese.

[T.G. Oskar]

It's a language-dependant spell. I don't think most opponents know lawyer-ese.

Please. Everybody with an Intelligence score of at least 12 knows that "Legalese" is a variant form of Infernal.

So, any lawful evil outsider with the Baatezu subtype knows Legalese automatically.

...Which also means that anybody who knows Infernal also gets a crash course in Legalese.

[Signmaker]

...I don't like where that notion is going.

Good thing my druid, when in her element, can't really be affected by language-dependant spells.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Well, I would definetely want to see said duel, but I don't get your question. You want me to help you with the optimization? To judge? To watch? Or something else?

We could both take him on is what I'm thinking.

[Oslecamo]

Well it will have to be tomorrow. In 15 hours I'll have my last exam of this semester, then I'll have plenty of free time for making a character and entering this contest I've been itching to try out.

But for now, I really can't afford to sacrifice enough brain power to fully build even an half-optimized D&D character.

[T.G. Oskar]

Well, considering things are going a bit soft around here...

Olo, since you apparently have a character in the waiting room, and Jemini is already on another combat...care if you and I duke it out? Though, I'd ask you to make the thread.


...I don't like where that notion is going.

Perhaps this won't help much. (http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=3243)

Then again, it's not exactly the Nine Hells...


Good thing my druid, when in her element, can't really be affected by language-dependant spells.

I just thought of something...what would happen if someone casted Suggestion or any language-dependent spell while under the effects of Speak with Animals?

Also, wasn't there a counterpart to Silence? Just wondering.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Ok who else wants to fight me?

Is there a 5th-7th spell that forces a reflex save per round?

[Signmaker]

I just thought of something...what would happen if someone casted Suggestion or any language-dependent spell while under the effects of Speak with Animals?

Also, wasn't there a counterpart to Silence? Just wondering.

None that I know of. I don't use silence (or its zone version), so I wouldn't know. The SRD has nothing to say on the matter either.

[T.G. Oskar]

None that I know of. I don't use silence (or its zone version), so I wouldn't know. The SRD has nothing to say on the matter either.

Well, obviously it's not SRD, but it's a spell that actually amplifies a conversation. It also imposes a penalty in Move Silently of -10 or -20, something like that.

Should be on Spell Compendium or Complete Scoundrel.

[Saph]

Well, I've still got my Tier 1.5 hanging around, if anyone wants a battle. I'm playing around with her gear and clothing at the moment.

[ex cathedra]

lvl 1 sharnian: I have something you could fight. It's a halfling soul-eater. Or I could finish up my new not-currently-submitted-or-approved character.

Signmakerens: It'd be difficult to place a rating on your druid, that won because of one spell after you choose a map that gave you a ridiculous advantage with the spell.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Uh sure, but didn't halfling already die?

And to be fair, I picked the map

What are the prices for a suit of human skin and several pounds of sand?

[Signmaker]

Signmakerens: It'd be difficult to place a rating on your druid, that won because of one spell after you choose a map that gave you a ridiculous advantage with the spell.

True. Then again, a confined area could have been far worse, due to lack of areas to teleport to. Hrm.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

But wouldn't the confined area have a larger amount of calm area to be at, weakening the tornado?

[ex cathedra]

That wasn't an official fight; and it didn't die as much as it sustained enough ability damage to temporarily lose cognitive function.



What are the prices for a suit of human skin and several pounds of sand?

A: :smalleek:
B: 5gp/lb.

[Signmaker]

I've heard that Shapesand is a pretty useful item. Weighs a good 100 lbs though.

Sharnian: Seeing as I can choose the diameter of the calm area (as per the spell), no. I could have technically made the diameter 5 feet wide, but that's boring and cheap. I usually default to 15.

The map was a pretty unfair choice on my part. I should have asked for one less advantageous to me, seeing as a single spell turns the entire field of trees and bridges to....not.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

okay Aether you make the thread

Signmakeren: Oh ok, I'm not famialiar with control winds. Well, it was an unofficial match so no harm.

[Signmaker]

Signmakeren: Oh ok, I'm not famialiar with control winds

Many people aren't. It's a very confusing spell by RAW, and druids usually don't actively create effects that can be a danger to the rest of the party, like tornados.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

That makes me want to create a gimmick party in Test of Might, all casters (1 gish, a bard, the druid, and the arcane as per his requirements) with high concentration to pull this off and make 10ft radius calm and just keep blasting from far away

[ex cathedra]

okay Aether you make the thread

Signmakeren: Oh ok, I'm not famialiar with control winds. Well, it was an unofficial match so no harm.

Sure. Against the soul-eater or my recently finished divine caster? And we should probably decide on a map beforehand.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

I guess I'll take on the divine caster, since I've already watched the halfling; I much rather fight a surprise.

As for the map,I don't like the default column box, it's too confined.

[ex cathedra]

Yeah, most of my fights happened there as well.

Do you have any map ideas?

[Signmaker]

Yeah, most of my fights happened there as well.

Do you have any map ideas?

There's the map he used in our fight.