Mystic Muse's Magnificent Masquerade Random Banter #225

[oxybe]

The way I see it, even if they're offensive or factually wrong, I want them to be heard, even if it's just them screaming in the wind.

We can't address what we can't hear or see though. we can't debate or expose these people to other ideas if we kick them from public discourse.

The other problem is that it's too easy to funnel these people away from public discourse channels or into hidden and isolated echo chambers where all they hear reinforces their viewpoint as they stew in their resentment from the public forum (where their opposition can freely go about).

And just because we have facts, doesn't meant facts alone will change someone's viewpoint. We need to bring these people into the conversation, but to do that we have to let them be heard, even if it's hard, because their viewpoint matters to them.

[Bartmanhomer]

The way I see it, even if they're offensive or factually wrong, I want them to be heard, even if it's just them screaming in the wind.

We can't address what we can't hear or see though. we can't debate or expose these people to other ideas if we kick them from public discourse.

The other problem is that it's too easy to funnel these people away from public discourse channels or into hidden and isolated echo chambers where all they hear reinforces their viewpoint as they stew in their resentment from the public forum (where their opposition can freely go about).

And just because we have facts, doesn't meant facts alone will change someone's viewpoint. We need to bring these people into the conversation, but to do that we have to let them be heard, even if it's hard, because their viewpoint matters to them.

Well as long if it doesn't violate forum rules, this shouldn't be an issue.

[Anonymouswizard]

The other problem is that it's too easy to funnel these people away from public discourse channels or into hidden and isolated echo chambers where all they hear reinforces their viewpoint as they stew in their resentment from the public forum (where their opposition can freely go about).

Part of my problem is that I don't see any evidence that this happen anyway. I've seen echo chambers develop because I dared to go and find scientific evidence, or didn't get my evidence from the 'right' (I thought the NHS was fairly sage, but apparently they make one mistake and say a condition is going to make taking care of yourself difficult in two years instead of seven and they now say dangerous substances are no more dangerous than other sugars). If they're going to form anyway I'd rather not have to deal with the opinions.

And just because we have facts, doesn't meant facts alone will change someone's viewpoint. We need to bring these people into the conversation, but to do that we have to let them be heard, even if it's hard, because their viewpoint matters to them.

Honestly I thought like that, until I realised that some ideas are killing people. Honestly, once deadly diseases started to come back because some people are afraid their kids will end up like me, and I learnt of that charity...

In all honesty, I don't mind people having opinions, as much as I sometimes wish I had the right not to hear them. It's just I'm tired of seeing wrong opinions coming up again and again because people can't do a little research.

[Bartmanhomer]

Part of my problem is that I don't see any evidence that this happens anyway. I've seen echo chambers develop because I dared to go and find scientific evidence, or didn't get my evidence from the 'right' (I thought the NHS was fairly sage, but apparently they make one mistake and say a condition is going to make taking care of yourself difficult in two years instead of seven and they now say dangerous substances are no more dangerous than other sugars). If they're going to form anyway I'd rather not have to deal with the opinions.



Honestly, I thought like that until I realised that some ideas are killing people. Honestly, once deadly diseases started to come back because some people are afraid their kids will end up like me, and I learnt of that charity...

In all honesty, I don't mind people having opinions, as much as I sometimes wish I had the right not to hear them. It's just I'm tired of seeing wrong opinions coming up again and again because people can't do a little research.

Just remember that this is the internet. Different opinions happened all the time. Whatever we agree or not, people have the right to entitled their opinion.

[Fyraltari]

Just remember that this is the internet. Different opinions happened all the time. Whatever we agree or not, people have the right to entitled their opinion.

People have the right to hold an opinion, but facts are not opinion and neither is dismissing them. An opinion based on facts is inherently superior to a belief that goes against them. Especially when, as in the example Anon gave, there are dire consequences to being wrong.

[halfeye]

I mean, there's a very small number of viewpoints who I'd argue do not have the right to be heard (either due to being offensive or just being straight up wrong*), I would in general agree.

*as in 'we have done research and it doesn't fit the facts'.

While I agree some opinions are very silly, if we ban them, who watches the watchers that watch the watchers that make the bans? It is very difficult to ban things without giving power to people, and as has been said, power corrupts.

[Bartmanhomer]

While I agree some opinions are very silly if we ban them, who watches the watchers that watch the watchers that make the bans? It is very difficult to ban things without giving power to people, and as has been said, power corrupts.

And not to mention censorship.

[Anonymouswizard]

People have the right to hold an opinion, but facts are not opinion and neither is dismissing them. An opinion based on facts is inherently superior to a belief that goes against them. Especially when, as in the example Anon gave, there are dire consequences to being wrong.

This. Honestly, my problem is that there are some viewpoints that, directly or indirectly, harm others. This can be as dire as the example I gave above, or as minor as the fact that I know people who won't go to the gym because they're terrified that using the correct changing room would cause them to get a terrible reputation.

While I agree some opinions are very silly, if we ban them, who watches the watchers that watch the watchers that make the bans? It is very difficult to ban things without giving power to people, and as has been said, power corrupts.

The problem is, as you have said, power without accountability. I don't want to go into details, but you can in theory set up a system where the censors are held accountable by their audience. But that's hard.

To give an example, The Playground actively moderates topics of discussion, as do other forums, but I've seen it abused in other places much more than I have here. I suppose it's either good luck as to who got picked as a moderator, or increased accountability, but at the same time the places on the internet I've seen with no moderation ended up becoming more echo-chamberesque due to either design or a generally off putting attitude (although this may be just my experience).

[Bartmanhomer]

People have the right to hold an opinion, but facts are not opinion and neither is dismissing them. An opinion based on facts is inherently superior to a belief that goes against them. Especially when, as in the example Anon gave, there are dire consequences to being wrong.

Yes. I know that there are good opinions and bad opinions but at the end of the day, people are still entitled to their opinion just like in this forum.

[Mystic Muse]

You're only entitled to your opinion when it's something that there are legitimate ways to argue about it

What the best ice cream flavor or restaurant is, is a valid opinion.

Saying that not washing your hands is just as or more sanitary than washing your hands is not.

[Bartmanhomer]

You're only entitled to your opinion when it's something that there are legitimate ways to argue about it

What the best ice cream flavor or restaurant is, is a valid opinion.

Saying that not washing your hands is just as or more sanitary than washing your hands is not.

What about Magikarp is better than every Pokemon in all eight generations? Is that a valid opinion?

[Anonymouswizard]

What about Magikarp is better than every Pokemon in all eight generations? Is that a valid opinion?

Yes. In all seriousness, yes that's a valid opinion.

[oxybe]

What about Magikarp is better than every Pokemon in all eight generations? Is that a valid opinion?

Magikarp is still a top tier sweeper after all

[Bartmanhomer]

Magikarp is still a top tier sweeper after all

Wow. Go Magikarp!

[SZbNAhL]

To give an example, The Playground actively moderates topics of discussion, as do other forums, but I've seen it abused in other places much more than I have here. I suppose it's either good luck as to who got picked as a moderator, or increased accountability, but at the same time the places on the internet I've seen with no moderation ended up becoming more echo-chamberesque due to either design or a generally off putting attitude (although this may be just my experience).

The thing about the Playground's moderation is that rather than making an arguably arbitrary ruling about which are the "correct" political or religious views, Rich has simply banned all religious or political views from being espoused. This conveniently renders any potential biases on the parts of any mods irrelevant - I have no idea what any of them think about anything controversial, and they'd censure [sic] me to the same extent for telling others what I think about anything controversial regardless of whether or not they agree. Hence the following not-at-all subtle attempt to change the subject.

On a completely unrelated note, the powers that be have decided that January isn't miserable enough and have given me an essay the length of my undergraduate dissertation to write in three weeks (alongside my regular teaching timetable) on a topic that I have had a single one-hour lecture on.

[Thufir]

To give an example, The Playground actively moderates topics of discussion, as do other forums, but I've seen it abused in other places much more than I have here. I suppose it's either good luck as to who got picked as a moderator, or increased accountability, but at the same time the places on the internet I've seen with no moderation ended up becoming more echo-chamberesque due to either design or a generally off putting attitude (although this may be just my experience).

That (particularly the 'off-putting attitude' part) is basically expected so long as the community in question is of a reasonable size. It all comes down to the paradox of tolerance - if you welcome anyone and allow them to talk about anything, then that includes welcoming people who and allowing conversation which make other people uncomfortable. The uncomfortable people leave, the community over time becomes more of an echo chamber for the people who drove them away.

[Anonymouswizard]

The thing about the Playground's moderation is that rather than making an arguably arbitrary ruling about which are the "correct" political or religious views, Rich has simply banned all religious or political views from being espoused. This conveniently renders any potential biases on the parts of any mods irrelevant - I have no idea what any of them think about anything controversial, and they'd censure [sic] me to the same extent for telling others what I think about anything controversial regardless of whether or not they agree.

I never claimed it was a good example, just am example

On a completely unrelated note, the powers that be have decided that January isn't miserable enough and have given me an essay the length of my undergraduate dissertation to write in three weeks (alongside my regular teaching timetable) on a topic that I have had a single one-hour lecture on.

Uh

Here's to hoping that accuracy isn't a requirement. And for the you that lives in the real world, ouch, maybe they're trying to get you used to the amount of admin work teachers have to do?

[2D8HP]

I would like to think myself as a true neutral Barbarian: "an intense, burning indifference, frothing with apathetic rage".

I choose not a hill to die on, but would rather be impaled upon the very fence which i sits.

I see myself most as a Lawful Neutral Rogue, but the last time I took the quiz it has me as a Lawful Good Wizard/Cleric.

Spoiler: details

Show

The last several batches of my PC's have been (from most to least) Fighters, Rogues, or Rangers, and Humans, Wood Elves, Half-Elves, or Half-Orcs, but I just took a What Kind of Dungeons and Dragons Character Would You Be?
test it said that I'm a:
"Lawful Good Human Wizard/Cleric (4th/3rd Level)

Ability Scores:
Strength- 13
Dexterity- 9
Constitution- 9
Intelligence- 12
Wisdom- 12
Charisma- 12", which feels strange and somehow dishonest.

That's a big difference between what the quiz says I am and what I've actually played, and my self perception.

Of classes that I've played, except for being blue-collar and cranky I'm not a Fighter though I enjoy playing one (I like the simplicity), I haven't the stamina to be a Ranger, nor do I spend much time outdoors, though that is the class that seems coolest to me, Rogue seems to fit real life me best as...

..."A dungeon is a room or cell in which prisoners are held, especially underground"

For my employer (The City and County of San Francisco,* A.K.A. Lankhmar),

I have:

Gone on quests (searched for any remaining intact plumbing under the piers),

Explored ruins (the former Naval base, shipyards, and let's face it most of the rest of the buildings are "well used")

Seeking treasure (look for plumbing fixtures to steal/salvage from the abandoned 6th floor Jail, for use on the 7th floor Jail).

Also, I've encountered monsters (had Sea Lions surface next to me under the piers, one seemed to be the size of a VW Microbus!, plus... well the inmates), crawled through underground tunnels, entered crypts (I've had many jobs in the autopsy room), looted dark passageways (the Jail cell plumbing chases looking for parts to use for the occupied cells), and I'm a Guild member (Plumbers and Steamfitters, Local 38!).

So it seems to me that I'm a dungeon delving Guild Thief (I hope Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser don't slay me )!

But the quiz said Wizard/Cleric (and a Lawful Good one, I'd have guessed Lawful Neutral would've been more likely).

Huh....

[Bartmanhomer]

My popularity in this forum, in all honesty, is actually a C- to B-.

[Tvtyrant]

My popularity in this forum, in all honesty, is actually a C- to B-.

Recognition is the greater part of popularity, so you get an A.

[Bartmanhomer]

Recognition is the greater part of popularity, so you get an A.

Awww, thank you. I love this forum.

[oxybe]

Just took the test.

True Neutral Dwarf Wizard (4th Level)

Ability Scores:
Strength- 12
Dexterity- 9
Constitution- 14
Intelligence- 14
Wisdom- 11
Charisma- 10

Dwarves are basically barbarian-lite, right? And dwarf wizards are basically the grouchy tech support of the D&D world, which fit me to a T.

A squat cylinder, with a thick graying beard of several inches and long hair that goes beyond the shoulder blades. Living in a dark hole/apartment, giving sage advice to lost souls while hammering away at personal projects that will likely never see the light of day.

[Insane Jeenyus]

Lawful Good Human Ranger (7th Level)



Ability Scores:
Strength- 17
Dexterity- 13
Constitution- 14
Intelligence- 15
Wisdom- 14
Charisma- 13

Spoiler

Show

Alignment:

Spoiler

Show

Lawful Good- A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. He combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. He tells the truth, keeps his word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished. Lawful good is the best alignment you can be because it combines honor and compassion. However, lawful good can be a dangerous alignment when it restricts freedom and criminalizes self-interest.

Race:
Humans are the most adaptable of the common races. Short generations and a penchant for migration and conquest have made them physically diverse as well. Humans are often unorthodox in their dress, sporting unusual hairstyles, fanciful clothes, tattoos, and the like.

Class:
Rangers- Rangers are skilled stalkers and hunters who make their home in the woods. Their martial skill is nearly the equal of the fighter, but they lack the latter's dedication to the craft of fighting. Instead, the ranger focuses his skills and training on a specific enemy a type of creature he bears a vengeful grudge against and hunts above all others. Rangers often accept the role of protector, aiding those who live in or travel through the woods. His skills allow him to move quietly and stick to the shadows, especially in natural settings, and he also has special knowledge of certain types of creatures. Finally, an experienced ranger has such a tie to nature that he can actually draw on natural power to cast divine spells, much as a druid does, and like a druid he is often accompanied by animal companions. A ranger's Wisdom score should be high, as this determines the maximum spell level that he can cast.

Detailed Results:

Alignment:
Lawful Good ----- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (31)
Neutral Good ---- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (24)
Chaotic Good ---- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (17)
Lawful Neutral -- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (29)
True Neutral ---- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (22)
Chaotic Neutral - XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (15)
Lawful Evil ----- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (18)
Neutral Evil ---- XXXXXXXXXXX (11)
Chaotic Evil ---- XXXX (4)

Law & Chaos:
Law ----- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (16)
Neutral - XXXXXXXXX (9)
Chaos --- XX (2)

Good & Evil:
Good ---- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (15)
Neutral - XXXXXXXXXXXXX (13)
Evil ---- XX (2)

Race:
Human ---- XXXXXXXXXXXXX (13)
Dwarf ---- XXXXXXXXXX (10)
Elf ------ XXXXXX (6)
Gnome ---- XXXXXX (6)
Halfling - XXXXXXXXXX (10)
Half-Elf - XXXXXXXXXX (10)
Half-Orc - XXXX (4)

Class:
Barbarian - XXXX (4)
Bard ------ XXXXXXXX (8)
Cleric ---- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (16)
Druid ----- XXXXXXXX (8)
Fighter --- XXXXXXXXXXXX (12)
Monk ------ XXXXXXXXXXXX (12)
Paladin --- XXXXXXXXXXXXXX (14)
Ranger ---- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (18)
Rogue ----- XXXXXX (6)
Sorcerer -- XXXXXXXXXXXXXX (14)
Warlock --- XXXXXX (6)
Wizard ---- XXXXXXXXXXXXXX (14)

[The Fury]

I'm in my last term of my mechanic training. I'm pretty ambivalent about it. On the one hand, I'm close to accomplishing something, which is cool. It really does feel like I've come a long way, almost two years ago I showed up to class with my hand in a sling and considering quitting because I literally could not do anything. (No hyperbole, most things mechanics do require use of their dominant hand and preferably both.) Of the twenty students admitted into our cohort only nine made it to the last term.

I'm going to miss the school though. I already miss the students that aren't in the final term with us. I'm grateful for all the staff and students that helped me along the way because they could see I was trying, and I feel like I'll never have the vocabulary to properly thank them.

[factotum]

Apparently I'm a 6th level True Neutral Dwarf Wizard with the following stats:

Ability Scores:
Strength- 10
Dexterity- 12
Constitution- 10
Intelligence- 16
Wisdom- 11
Charisma- 10

Wasn't happy with some of the answers I had to give to the questions, though, I felt some of them needed an extra option.

[Insane Jeenyus]

Apparently I'm a 6th level True Neutral Dwarf Wizard with the following stats:

Ability Scores:
Strength- 10
Dexterity- 12
Constitution- 10
Intelligence- 16
Wisdom- 11
Charisma- 10

Wasn't happy with some of the answers I had to give to the questions, though, I felt some of them needed an extra option.

I wasn't happy too. there were some I could have clicked neither and others, both.

[Anonymouswizard]

So I've been thinking about The Phantom Menace, and I've realised something.

If we take Jar Jar at his word (and there's no reason not to) the reason he was banished from Otoh Gunga was because he's clumsy. But looking at the film, his motor skills are impaired to the point where he'd have trouble with everyday tasks, and he struggles to keep things in this hands, to the point where he's probably legitimately disabled. Maybe to the point of dyspraxia, we don't really get enough evidence in the film itself, but certainly enough that he'd struggle to live a normal life without support. He does have good acrobatic ability, but otherwise both his gross and fibe motor skills are subpar. He's essentially exiled because his need for help was ignored until he caused s major accident.

I think I now know much better why I liked him so much as a kid (and why Gungans are still my favourite Star Wars species).

[Mith]

I'm in my last term of my mechanic training. I'm pretty ambivalent about it. On the one hand, I'm close to accomplishing something, which is cool. It really does feel like I've come a long way, almost two years ago I showed up to class with my hand in a sling and considering quitting because I literally could not do anything. (No hyperbole, most things mechanics do require use of their dominant hand and preferably both.) Of the twenty students admitted into our cohort only nine made it to the last term.

I'm going to miss the school though. I already miss the students that aren't in the final term with us. I'm grateful for all the staff and students that helped me along the way because they could see I was trying, and I feel like I'll never have the vocabulary to properly thank them.

Congrats on the milestone!

In my opinion, the best way to repay good teachers is to putting their lessons to good practise. That is likely thanks enough.

So I've been thinking about The Phantom Menace, and I've realised something.

If we take Jar Jar at his word (and there's no reason not to) the reason he was banished from Otoh Gunga was because he's clumsy. But looking at the film, his motor skills are impaired to the point where he'd have trouble with everyday tasks, and he struggles to keep things in this hands, to the point where he's probably legitimately disabled. Maybe to the point of dyspraxia, we don't really get enough evidence in the film itself, but certainly enough that he'd struggle to live a normal life without support. He does have good acrobatic ability, but otherwise both his gross and fibe motor skills are subpar. He's essentially exiled because his need for help was ignored until he caused s major accident.

I think I now know much better why I liked him so much as a kid (and why Gungans are still my favourite Star Wars species).

Huh. Interesting theory.

I'll be honest, I always was partial to Sith agent theory my self.

[Anonymouswizard]

Huh. Interesting theory.

I'll be honest, I always was partial to Sith agent theory my self.

While I'm not exactly against Darth Darth Binks as a theory, I do think that there's not really anything in the film supports it. Plus if there was a Sith agent among them then the obvious place to insert them would be those Naboo soldier guys or the Queen's handmaidens.

Plus, well, I was trying to work out why Jar Jar makes me smile despite all the problems with him, considering I'm not five anymore. And I think it's because I grew up to a disablity* which had similar effects, to the point where I would get shouted at and asked if I didn't know where my body is (for he record, not if it's not in motion or touching something, and I think I got the diet version of my various disabilities). I still knock over cups and drop things in my hands just because I don't realise that's where I am before it's too late.

* As in I had a diagnosis, and really should look into getting it updated.

[LaZodiac]

If we're talking milestones, today's the anniversary of me going on HRT. So that's cool.

*blows a tiny horn*