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2022-09-16, 01:05 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2012
- Location
- Copenhagen
- Gender
Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?
So, I'm thinking of PAO into a Sarrukh, to gain a large amount of base intelligence. However, I'm not that keen on actually staying a sarrukh. They are cool and all, but I really want to stay a human.
So I was considering making a clone and then mind switch into the clone when I was done being a sarrukh - which to be honest is right after I gain the int bonus.
But, it would seem that its not possible to clone my self without loosing a level... so what should I do, if I don't want to loose a level and don't want to stay a sarrukh, but wants to gain the int bonus...
This is mostly a thought experiment, but I might just try it in game... so any help really would be great!
Thanks!
EDIT: I just thought of something. Could I mind switch into something else, PAO into a sarrukh and then mind switch back into my old body? Would that be doable and if so would that cost a level?
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2022-09-16, 01:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2019
- Location
- Bear mountains! (Alps)
- Gender
Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?
Thought bottle? I'm not 100% sure as I have no actual experience in high level arcaney shenanigans, but I do remember that's the thing mentioned when youneed to manipulate/recoup XP shenanigans
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2022-09-16, 01:59 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
- Gender
Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?
Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2022-09-16 at 01:59 PM.
⚣ Tanuki in the Playground. ⚣
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2022-09-16, 02:15 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2012
- Location
- Copenhagen
- Gender
Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?
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2022-09-16, 04:12 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2016
Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?
Currently Playing: NICELA LASERIE (Neutral Good) Female Gray Elf Fire Souled Half Nymph Elven Generalist Wizard 20 /// PF Bard 1 / Paladin of Freedom 2 /PF Bard +17
AND .......
FERGUS MADROAR (Chaotic Good) Male Dwarf Half Earth Elemental
Cloistered Cleric (Hanseath) 5 / Divine Oracle 6 / Contemplative 9 /// Paladin of Freedom 20
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2022-09-16, 06:03 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2018
Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?
I don't see why you couldn't contract lycanthropy so that you lose an animal hit die instead of a class level. After shifting to your new form (whether that's through clone, astral seed, mind switch, or whatever) you could receive a remove curse or break enchantment to cure the lycanthropy. This most likely does require your base type to be either humanoid or giant, or to use a polymorph any object twice for the permanent duration.
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2022-09-16, 09:38 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2016
- Location
- Earth and/or not-Earth
- Gender
Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?
Can't you just dispel the PAO? It has a duration of permanent, not instantaneous.
I made a webcomic, featuring absurdity, terrible art, and alleged morals.
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2022-09-16, 10:24 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
- Gender
Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?
⚣ Tanuki in the Playground. ⚣
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2022-09-18, 09:38 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2012
- Location
- Copenhagen
- Gender
Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?
So, assuming I used PAO to turn a pepple into a human, mind switched to that human, and then PAO into a sarrukh (twice for permanent duration) and my wizard started with 18 int back at level 1. Would I gain 20 to int, since that's the Sarrukh racial bonus or would the spell set my base int to 30 thus netting a gain of 12 to int since that is the difference between 18 and 30?
I'm a little confused as to how the interaction would go. I first just thought I would gain 20, but now I'm unsure!
If its the latter, what is the highest int creature I could PAO into, for max int gain? Like could I PAO into a great wyrm prismatic dragon, and gain its int? Is there any limitations really?
Thanks!
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2022-09-21, 09:30 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?
I would argue that you received the racial bonus, so you would receive +20 to int. I think so, because you are still you, so you don’t loose 8 int from having 18 int to start with… when polymorphing. You still have that… they are not just gone! They are still base.
So in effect, treat your int as if you had a starter a new character of that race.
At least that’s how I see it!
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2022-09-21, 11:03 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2019
Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?
This combo can't work. Mind switch doesn't have any text to say that you retain your intelligence score. Therefore, when you mind switch you either lose the effect of PAO or take the effect with you keeping you a sarruhk. My money is on the first one.
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2022-09-21, 11:46 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2015
- Gender
Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?
Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2022-09-21 at 11:58 AM.
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2022-09-21, 12:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?
Neither does it have any text to say that you loose it! Nor that any of your ongoing spells are dispelled... In fact following your logic, I can infer that Mind switching will grant me the mental scores of a great wyrm time dragon. It doesn't say it will, but if your assertion is correct so too is mine!
... what can be asserting with out evidence can be dismissed without evidence!Last edited by Max Caysey; 2022-09-21 at 01:03 PM.
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2022-09-21, 04:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- Toronto, Ontario, Canada
- Gender
Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?
I think it's fair to say that any effect that doesn't say it changes your attributes, doesn't change your attributes. That would be why Mind Switch specifies that "You gain the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of your assumed body." If you could just assume this, it wouldn't have to tell you. But logically, if it specifies which attributes change, any that are not specified would not change.
This isn't an assertion without evidence, it's just how rules work. Effects specify what changes they cause, and do not cause changes they do not specify. PAO specifes that it grants the intelligence score of the new form, Mind Switch does not. One could argue that because you are no longer in the form that was targeted with PAO, you are no longer subject to its permanent effect, but I don't think this would be strict RAW.
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2022-09-21, 11:57 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?
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2022-09-22, 12:14 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- Toronto, Ontario, Canada
- Gender
Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?
Sorry, I may have misunderstood which side you were arguing for, need to read things more carefully. To be clear, I do think you should keep the INT when Mind Switched.
The alternative would be that Mind Switch changes the scores it says it does, and also changes the ones it doesn't say it changes, which I think would be silly. It says physical scores change, so if it changed mentals as well it would say so. Simple explanation for that is, PAO alters your mind to fit the form, Mind Switch doesn't. That would kinda defeat the point.
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2022-09-22, 07:49 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2012
- Location
- Copenhagen
- Gender
Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?
Thanks…
That was the way I too thought it made the most sense. But the spells do not say “ gain the racial bonuses… “ but rather that you gain the scores of the target form… Idk, maybe I just want it the be the most advantageous interpretation, because I want to gain the most possible boost to my wizards int!
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2022-09-22, 07:23 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2019
Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?
Except you can't simply split the spell effect. Either PAO follows you, meaning you stay a sarruhk no matter which body you inhabit, or the effect stays with the original body as you are no longer that creature and you lose your increased Int score. You cannot say that you keep the Int score and stop being affected by PAO. If you are no longer affected by a magical effect, you no longer receive any of the benefits.
True Mind Switch says you exchanged bodies. You are no longer the creature targeted by PAO. Just like if you change creature type under a charm person spell, because you are no longer the valid target of the spell it doesn't continue to affect you.
It also doesn't say it brings magical effects with you. PAO can have a permanent duration, but is never instantaneous. This means the magical effect stays active after casting. Mind Switch doesn't say whether or not effects follow you, but in either case you cannot simply nullify the effects of another effect that don't make each other irrelevant. If you want to keep the Int, you must stay a sarruhk in the new body.Last edited by Darg; 2022-09-22 at 07:38 PM.
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2022-09-22, 10:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- Toronto, Ontario, Canada
- Gender
Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?
This part I disagree with, it says you gain the targets physical scores and type and everything, not that you become that creature. You're still you. Whether spell effects follow you or not, I have no idea.
The point that you're either still under the effects of PAO and therefore still a sarrukh, or not and therefore lose the INT, is a good one though. I think I have to agree there, even if I'm not sure which is true.
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2022-09-22, 10:38 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
- Location
- Imagination Land
- Gender
Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?
Don't polymorph effects generally turn you into a typical example of the creature you're becoming? That would mean you gain the Int of an average Sarrukh, not their racial bonus applied to your initial Int score.
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2022-09-22, 11:50 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- Toronto, Ontario, Canada
- Gender
Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?
I think they typically only change physical scores, but PAO specifies that "polymorph any object does grant the creature the Intelligence score of its new form." Not sure if there's a clear answer to how that works exactly, but it does sound like it gives the creatures actual score, not its modifier to its score. It does use the same wording as polymorph does about changing physical scores.
On the other hand, I don't know if 'form' is clearly defined. You would be in that form if you were naturally a sarrukh, and then you could put an 18 in INT and start at 38. So this might just be a gm call either way?
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2022-09-23, 03:59 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?
Thats my argument… you are still you, and if you had started as a sarrukh, you would have had 38 int (starting with 18) so why should that not be the case when polymorphing? You still have your starting stats…
It makes more sense to me, that you keep your point bought/ rolled up stats, and then apply what ever racial modifier your target form might have - positive or negative - just as if you had started your character as that race/monster…
Now it does not specifically say that one does so, but you are still you, so…Last edited by Max Caysey; 2022-09-23 at 04:01 AM.
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2022-09-23, 08:08 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2019
Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?
Yeah, I'm not arguing about how mind switch works. My argument is entirely that for the switch to work where you keep the int score and the form of the body you switch to requires butchering the spell effect. Either you remain the target of the entirety of the spell or you lose the entirety of the spell. There isn't an in-between.
Racial bonuses are included in the ability scores of the form. They tell you to use ability scores so you simply copy the box as is minus the exceptions. So, if one believes that the ability scores are the outcome of racial bonuses, as implied by monsters as characters, then those bonuses are tied to the form itself.
Originally Posted by GlossaryLast edited by Darg; 2022-09-23 at 08:20 AM.
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2022-09-23, 08:49 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?
Racial bonusser are yes, my 18 int (8 more than standard) is not!
Im saying my interpretation is they should!
Btw, I see the interaction between the two spells as no different than if a sarrukh just wanted to mind switch. The fact that one became sarrukh by magic has no bearing on how the spells work imoLast edited by Max Caysey; 2022-09-23 at 09:00 AM.
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2022-09-23, 12:55 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
- Location
- Toronto, Ontario, Canada
- Gender
Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?
Fair enough, whether or not you're the same creature is a fairly minor point. I don't even know what that means rules wise. The rest I agree with.
It is different though, it can be dispelled, and if it is dispelled, you go back to your old INT. PAO is an active spell effect. As Darg pointed out, you can't pick and choose which parts of a spell effect to bring with you. If it were an instantaneous spell maybe, but it's permanent. So it's constantly acting on you to make you smarter, and to make you a snake person. You can't take the part you like with you and leave the rest behind.
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2022-09-23, 03:20 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
- Location
- Imagination Land
- Gender
Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?
The polymorph sub-school states "Unless stated otherwise in the spell's description, the target of a polymorph spell takes on all the statistics and special abilities of an average member of the new form in place of its own" with a few exceptions that don't apply to ability scores.
That means you get the form's standard ability scores, of an average member of their species, not their racial ability modifiers.Last edited by KillianHawkeye; 2022-09-23 at 03:20 PM.
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2022-09-24, 12:23 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2019
Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?