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2020-11-10, 07:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!
The same reasons it worked historically.
1) Nobles are still human. It's not that easy to condemn your children to death to fulfill your personal ambition.
2) Inheritance laws are a thing. If you anoint a different child, the hostage taker can point to the law and declare it null and void. The child that just had their inheritance ripped away is also likely to be pissed off, meaning that they would support the hostage taker.
Klaus may not have cared much more bloodlines, but the nobility did. He was exploiting that fact while simultaneously creating a generation of nobility that owes him. He keeps the nobility in line with the threat that if they rebel their kids go bye-bye. He encourages nobles to turn their kids over because they will get an incredible education. And the kids grow up away from the constant backstabbing and surrounded by evidence of the Baron's power and generosity.
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2020-11-10, 01:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
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Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!
Here is the thing. He took the heirs because he was strong enough to demand it and make it happen. Why would that change for whoever the new heir would be? That doesnt even count the likely reaction to trying to repudiate your heir like rodin said. Secondly, there can be more than one reason for having them there. Its entirely likely that his goal was to unite the families and make them work together through their heirs, and also ensure their loyalty to him because he is the one who raised them, educated them, helped them build alliances for the future, etc etc etc. "Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man". Basically, he is raising them to be loyal to him and taught his outlook on ruling while at the same time keeping the current nobles in power from doing anything too drastic because he has their kids to ensure they behave. Ideally gil would have taken over in another decade or 2 tops with his fellows full grown and ready to take over their family lands and titles and gil would have had a more stable empire to run.
"Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2020-11-10, 01:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!
I think there was another reason as well. Not only did Klaus give the hostages a top notch education, he was also training them to be good rulers. I think Tarvek mentions a course named "Good Rulership 101" at one point. If he can make the kids good rulers it greatly reduces the importance of people like him. Klaus was basically trying to work himself (and Gil) out of their jobs long term.
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2020-11-10, 01:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!
I said Klaus was a monarch and an authoritarian by heart because "his way" is to beat everybody into submission. Order through force, that's authorianism 101. He thinks the only way for people to work together is the presence of a supreme leader whose decisions cannot be vetoed. Still authorianism 101. He is also a monarch(ist) because he fully intends to pass his empire on to his son, for his son to do the same and so on and so on and so forth. He may have a low opinion of the other monarchs of the world but he clearly believes that system is sound and right. Wether that's true in the context of this universe is debatable but at least one of the many real-world flaws with this kind of thinking is apparent in-comic: as soon as the strongman was out of the picture all the issues he had put a lid on resurfaced as if he had never been there, namely all the madboys started rebelling even without the influence of the Other.
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2020-11-10, 02:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!
Thing is, Klaus has a point.
The Brothers Heterodyne tried a different way, brought peace the "heroic" way.
And. It. Failed. The Other attacked, they vanished and everything went back to hell.
So I can't exactly blame the Baron, upon returning to the sheer mess Europa turned into without his friends, for deciding "My way then."
Because honestly? It's the only way that works.
Without someone keeping everything in check Europa would burn to ashes.
Voltaire wasn't different. Nor is Albia.
Ultimately the Boys were just a more idealistic version.
And of course he wanted a successor to keep the Empire going. Anything else would be moronic.
Because otherwise everything falls apart. Again.
That everything almost did with the Wulfenbach forces being weakened after Mechanicsburg only proves him right in the end."If it lives it can be killed.
If it is dead it can be eaten."
Ronkong Coma "the way of the bookhunter" III Catacombium
(Walter Moers "Die Stadt der träumenden Bücher")
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2020-11-10, 02:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
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Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!
Klaus does care about bloodlines, at the very least because of the spark. A Heterodyne is more important than a Merlot or a von Zinzer. The reason why he used his son as a heir was probably that he needed the strongest spark he could get. And this could also have brought him to choose him as his own vessel.
In effect, important nobles often are sparks, and autonomous rulers I remember all are (Gil, Klaus, Albia, Zeetha's mom, that other Queen, the Iron Sheik, Voltaire, Colette; not sure about the UnderParisian kings).
Even if he wanted to think outside the box as far as non-sparks are concerned, he still lives in a world where lots of people care about bloodline, as evidenced by the Storm King conspiracies. So he has to take it in account.Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
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2020-11-10, 02:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!
There's been a slight semantic shift to the meaning of hostage, since about the 1970s. Nowadays when we use the word hostage, we think of criminals: terrorists, bank robbers, etc. who capture whichever random people were at the wrong place at the wrong time as a bargaining chip. Historically, though, it was still a bargaining chip but it was part of how early feudal systems worked. Let's not forget it has the same root as "host", "hospitality" or even "hotel". The vassals sent their children to their liege, who took care of their education. This allowed the liege to control the kind of values the heirs of the vassals would be taught, kept the vassals themselves in line, but also allowed the vassals to hopefully curry favor with their liege and help their heirs find suitable alliance prospects among the other hostages. In fact, the practice was once commonplace enough that some children were actually named Hostage as their name, because that was what their purpose was going to be. This is the case notably for the Germanic-origin names with the gisl root in it, like Ghislain or Giselle. Hostages were also taken after a peace treaty between two countries, sometimes even mutually, as a way keep the peace treaty alive and foster greater understanding for their neighbor in the next generation of rulers.
This practice died off in the 18th century, though; so it could be seen as a bit anachronistic in Girl Genius; but it fits the setting and it's not like there aren't more important deviations between the real world and Sparky Europa.Hark! An avatar drawn by Kate Beaton!
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2020-11-10, 05:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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- France
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Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!
Wait what? "The Boys vanished when the Other attacks and everything went to hell therefore their way failed" and " The Baron vanished when the Other attacked and everything went to hell therefore his way works"? Pick one, you can't have both.
Without someone keeping everything in check Europa would burn to ashes.
Voltaire wasn't different. Nor is Albia.
[Quote]Ultimately the Boys were just a more idealistic version.
And of course he wanted a successor to keep the Empire going. Anything else would be moronic.
Because otherwise everything falls apart. Again.
That everything almost did with the Wulfenbach forces being weakened after Mechanicsburg only proves him right in the end.
There's only one real solution to the situation in Europa, and that's getting rid of the Spark. If Klaus had focused on that and brought more people to help him study the spark rather than try to tame a continent that can't be tamed he might have made some progress.
Also, Klaus failed to notice the Knights of Jove conspiracy and the servants of the Other inside his own army, so I doubt one can really say that his way worked, even in the short term.Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2020-11-10, 05:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!
To be fair, nobody knew wasping produced anything other than shamblers. It was research Klaus sponsored that worked that out and started on the process of cleaning up that particular mess. And led to a wasp vaccine.
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2020-11-10, 07:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2012
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Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!
Gil was in charge of the empire, and we know he's not incompetent, and we know Tarvek told him that he'd probably done as well as he could. It wasn't Klaus leaving that brought down the Empire.
It was- The Jagers defecting to the Heterodyne once the Doom Bell rang. What percentage of his military might did they represent?
- Having a large portion of his armed forces near Mechanicsburg when Agatha managed to restore power to the Castle, and it did that thing it does when Mechanicsburg is threated
He was ruling by force, which I fully stipulate is bad, and then a lot of his forces were taken away from him. That was what led the mad boys off the leash.
How do you suppose a Europaean Union would have fared with most of the "nations" ruled either by autocrats or mad boys?
Klaus was driven by three things: his research, his desire for order in Europa, and his hatred of The Other. These drives did not always produce evil results. It's good that humans can't be perfectly evil any more than we can be perfectly good.This ... is my signature finishing move!
"It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady
According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
http://easydamus.com/character.html
I am a Ranger Archetype: Gleaming Warden (thx to Ninja Prawn)
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2020-11-10, 08:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2015
Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!
Originally Posted by Shining Wrath
As such, maintaining stability in the Empire for Gil would be significantly more difficult than it had been for Klaus simply due to the change in circumstances. Klaus was also presumably aided in building his empire in the first place by the absence of a Heterodyne from the scene, since we know they were a traditionally destabilizing element that even the Shining Coalition failed to completely overcome.
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2020-11-10, 08:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!
So, today's Girl Genius gives us a really good view of Bangladesh DuPree's neck and collarbones - I don't remember there being noticeable scars and stitching around the base of her neck before.
If you look at Act 2, Volume 2, Page 62, which is after the time-skip but before Paris, Bang doesn't have the scars and stitching around her neck.
They only appear after Bang fights the Geisterdamen in Paris. Did they cut off her head and did Gil need to sew it back on or something?Honor guard at the funeral in the Miko Fan Club.
Those who are too stupid to run, I salute you.
Human Male, age 35
"Have you come to lecture me on my evil ways?"
"Actually, I brought you some supper. But if you'd prefer a lecture, I've a few very catchy ones prepped; sin and hellfire... one has lepers."
- Inara and Book, Firefly
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2020-11-10, 09:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2017
Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!
This has been an interesting discussion so far - I'm of the opinion that Klaus is a necessary evil for Europa. There are a handful of people capable of bringing stability to the continent, but I honestly doubt that any will be as effective as he was.
Not really...England's underwater and most anything outside the large cities is uninhabitable because of rampant spark creations.
Well, that's not strictly true. He did learn of both.Last edited by Ortho; 2020-11-10 at 11:08 PM.
The Everyman's Guide to Taking Up Arms - A Guide to Fighters
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Avatar courtesy of the webcomic Aurora, drawn by Red
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2020-11-10, 10:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2015
Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!
She doesn't have the scars when she shows up in Vol 19, pages 17-19 at the breakfast between Gil and Trelawney either though - the view isn't quite as good (strangely she appears to be wearing the same outfit in that scene and the current scene only it's somehow gotten significantly more revealing in the interim).
However, the scars have a distinct tendency to appear and disappear even from one panel to the next. For example in Vol 21 pg 63, when she stabs Tarvek, the scars are clearly present in the first two thirds of the strip only to spontaneously vanish in the final 2 panels despite no real change in distance and perspective with regard to Bang. With such a high level of inconsistency - the same thing has happened multiple times during her sparring session with Zeetha already - it's hard to make any sort of judgment.
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2020-11-10, 11:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2012
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2020-11-11, 12:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2013
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- Pacific NW
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Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!
The first time we see her with the scar is when she's dressed in that new more revealing outfit, leaving the Mopey Tortoise as it arrives in England. As noted, it's come and gone since then. Presumably Phil and/or Cheyenne have trouble remembering to include it.
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2020-11-11, 12:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!
Also, Bang was not in Paris. It was Team Agatha that took on the Geisters until the Master proved why he's in charge.
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2020-11-11, 03:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!
So, Zeetha found something important or at least interesting. What is it?
Member of the Giants in the Playground Forum Chapter for the Movement to Reunite Gondwana!
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2020-11-11, 03:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2013
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Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!
Last edited by geoduck; 2020-11-11 at 03:48 AM.
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2020-11-11, 04:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
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- USA
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Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!
I won't, I'll take just about anything to keep the plot moving forward at this point :P. Particularly if it is some sort of map only a Skifanderian can read. More likely, I guess it's just an authentic Skifanderian artifact. That will get identified by Zetha, then stolen by Steelgarter who will perform some Science! ritual using it to determine where Skifander is located, then Agatha and company steal it back while foiling the rest of Steelgarter's schemes. Hijinks, delayed art, holiday one shots, and backstabbing by Martellus expected as minor derailments.
Also it was an unquestionably loyal one, outside of matters where the until then non-existent Hetetodyne was concerned. Given how much treason, plotting, and politics he had to deal with, I imagine that having a unit you could be sure couldn't be suborned was incredibly important.Last edited by Thomas Cardew; 2020-11-11 at 04:40 AM.
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2020-11-11, 07:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2010
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- right behind you
Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!
Im thinking its some sort of memorial of important people who died. Important enough zeetha was able to recognize it on sight. As an example, woosters name is on the plate she is holding.
"Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."
"If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."
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2020-11-11, 08:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2012
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- Colorado
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Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!
Percentage of power was what I had in mind, not percentage of headcount. A Jager counts as how many ordinary foot soldiers - 10? 20? Considering the battle at the bridge as one example, quite a few.
They are in the astronomy section of the Royal Libraries. We've had foreshadowing that these people have the best maps and charts. I think some sort of indication of where Skifander is found. It has to be something that Zeetha would immediately recognize as being important with a casual glance.This ... is my signature finishing move!
"It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady
According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
http://easydamus.com/character.html
I am a Ranger Archetype: Gleaming Warden (thx to Ninja Prawn)
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2020-11-11, 08:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!
Pertinent to that example, I feel like the Jager three are especially competent. Jaegers seem kind of like Jaffa from Stargate -- the one on the good guy team is a practical combat god, but when the good guys have to mow down a dozen on the other side, they aren't really all that tough.
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2020-11-11, 09:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!
I agree that the Three (well, four if you count Jenka, though we haven't seen her in action that much) are extra competent. I believe it is Dimo who says at one point that being separated from the pack seems to have made them smarter.
But, have we ever seen minion-level Jagers? When recovering the Wasp Eaters, the Jagers seem comparable to or superior to the Vespiary Squads, who were supposed to be elite. One lone Jager was enough to take down 6 sparkwolves when distracting Martellus. And comparing the Generals with the common soldiery is probably unfair, but all the generals we've seen have been absolute monsters when in combat. The only time I can recall off the top of my head where Jagers lost badly was when the Three went and got themselves captured in Zum Zum, but even then it happened off-camera.
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2020-11-11, 10:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2012
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- Colorado
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Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!
This ... is my signature finishing move!
"It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady
According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
http://easydamus.com/character.html
I am a Ranger Archetype: Gleaming Warden (thx to Ninja Prawn)
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2020-11-11, 10:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!
In a war it doesn't matter who's right, only who's left.
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2020-11-11, 10:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
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Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!
The Jaeger in general seem to be in the top 5% of mad creations. They have lost a few times (against the bears, the giant weasel, against Punch, arguably against Von Pinn, against Vapnoople's summoned monsters, against Boris, and against the creatures in Sturmhalten), but they have numbers (although they obtained them over centuries), brains, and human-like bodies. Plus, they can run, unlike the bears, who are really strong and smart, but pretty slow. Overall, they are very strong, loyal, versatile, fast, and unhinged.
Othar was actually almost killed by Jenka.Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
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2020-11-11, 11:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
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- England. Ish.
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Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!
The Novels (especially the first one) show the Jagers as being a good deal sharper than they let on (starting with the leader of Klaus' bodyguard coming up with an off-the-cuff way of circumventing his order not to follow them while chasing Agatha's clank, going all the way through to the fight with the wasps at the end. Dimo and Jenka (and to a letter extent Oggie and Maxim) are sgown as a bit sharper due to having been detached.
Novels again: A footnote indicates that the education was a side-effect from Klaus just wanting the kids out of his hair, but gave rise to a more well-educated and enlightened ruling caste than previously.Warning: This posting may contain wit, wisdom, pathos, irony, satire, sarcasm and puns. And traces of nut.
"The main skill of a good ruler seems to be not preventing the conflagrations but rather keeping them contained enough they rate more as campfires." Rogar Demonblud
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2020-11-11, 11:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
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2020-11-11, 12:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2012
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- Colorado
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Re: Girl Genius XXVIII: Dancink! Ve is here for de dancink!
The Heterodynes did not lack for soldiers. But they went ahead and created the Jagermonster ritual, which killed a a goodly (unknown) percentage of those who agreed to undergo it. Since the ancient Heterodynes were seldom stupid (distinct from crazy or evil), the upgrade must have been worth the cost in soldiers. I think we can be confident that one Jager is worth several trained and equipped soldiers.
Which is what you'd expect. The Heterodynes were among the most feared of the Mad Boy families, and for good reason.This ... is my signature finishing move!
"It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady
According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
http://easydamus.com/character.html
I am a Ranger Archetype: Gleaming Warden (thx to Ninja Prawn)