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2021-02-26, 11:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread
Probably nothing. I would guess there is some threshold amount that is required for it to take permanently.
It could be a very difficult process. This troll physician being Large and regenerating can easily apply an enormous amount of blood to a Small patient, in excess of Serini's own healthy body mass, if deemed necessary. If the troll is intent on this succeeding and it can succeed, it will succeed (assuming the patient does not expire first).I owe Peelee 5 Quatloos. But I am going double or nothing that Durkon will be casting 8th level spells at the big finale.
I bet Goblin_Priest 5 quatloos that Xykon does not know RC has the phylactery at this point in the tale (#1139).
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of Belkar...so close!
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of goblinkind!
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2021-02-27, 01:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2019
Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread
Well, it's the bargain of a lifetime. As in she got a second lifetime for free (even though she didn't literally buy her first one from the trolls).
That's how I took it anyway.
Very debatable, since we know next to nothing about her intentions or circumstances and she didn't cause any actual harm to her prisoners. Whom she bothered to take prisoner instead of killing them in the first place.
People don't have to be pure beeings of good to register as not evil. And nobody claimed Serini was lawful.
Same goes for pretty much everything the OOTS did during their adventures. And their leader isn' just supposed to be not evil but actually good. And lawful to boot.
He talked a vampire into non-existence, but didn't really convince him.
And he got RC to sit down and talk because of his knowledge and mission. When it comes to actual persuasiveness I don't think Durkon can outperform O-Chul.
That's only a valid argument if you assume Girard is a good judge of a paladins character and not at all biased.
Inflaming years of resentment doesn't mean it was objectively a terrible thing to do. Sealing the gates was the common goal of their group and Kraagor most likely knew what he was getting into. It was a tough decision and a tragic sacrifice for sure. But a terrible thing? We don't actually know that.
But we have no indication whatsoever that this mode of operation was ordered or even condoned by the founder of their order. Miko did tons of stuff that Shojo didn't appove of. Like killing him.
I beg to differ.
His flaw is not finishing. He's a quitter - which is not in itself evil. We have no indication weather or not he did try to be lawful good in every task he set out to do before he abandoned it.
Eugene is a jerk and we don't see much evidence of him being genuinely LG. But I can't remember much that would register as evil either.
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2021-02-27, 03:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2016
Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread
I agree with most of this. It is debatable, which is why I just said "coming off kind of", and I certainly agree there is too little information to make a concrete call at the moment. I also agree that she doesn't have to be pure to be good. What I am saying is that the little we have seen leans more toward evil than good.
Where I do disagree is where you imply her drugging and kidnapping of the paladins was itself not evil because she kidnapped them instead of killing them. No. Killing them might have been worse, but kidnapping them was still a bad thing to do unless she had a really good reason (and for me merely defending her gate doesn't cut it - she knew they were paladins). Even if she did have a really good reason for kidnapping them, that she has gone out of her way to make the imprisonment less pleasant for them than it could have been is decisive.
Same goes for pretty much everything the OOTS did during their adventures. And their leader isn' just supposed to be not evil but actually good. And lawful to boot.
"Seen nothing" being the operative words, we may well find out that she's super good in the next strip. But on what we've seen so far, she's looking the other way.
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2021-02-27, 03:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2017
Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread
Don't forget the dreaded "kidnapping".
I mean, it's only an entire world at stake, and as far as she knows the paladins just finished losing their gate - then Girard's fell shortly after she got a (false) notification that Soon's people broke their oath and tried to force their way in. If she'd rather get apparent bumblers out of the way before they literally get everyone killed, in a way that doesn't harm them... obviously that proves she's evil. Because paladins are good, and she should let them do whatever they want. Right?
Opposing a good person is not necessarily evil, if you have reason to believe their well-intentioned actions will be a "road to hell" that kills millions.
Edit: Fixed a brain fart that made my wording about the timing false.Last edited by arimareiji; 2021-02-27 at 04:24 AM. Reason: correcting a mental lapse
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2021-02-27, 05:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2016
Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread
Yep, just like Miko. The entire world was at stake and as far she knew (she would actually have been correct) the Order had just been responsible for the loss of one of the gates.
She would have known the paladins were good. Of course you are right that it is not evil to oppose them. To oppose them without even engaging with them (she presumably could have simply spoken to them and gauged their intent and competence without risk), a bit questionable, but probably still not evil.
To go further than opposing them and actually take away their freedom by kidnapping and imprisoning them. I agree it doesn't make her evil. Your mileage may vary on whether it was an evil act in isolation though. Seems there's a few different opinion, with more coming down on the "it's not evil in the context" side.
But the point I've made several times and nobody has seemed to have addressed yet is that she doesn't seem to have reluctantly kidnapped them in a manner that causes them as little discomfort as possible, she seems to be going out of her way to mock them. You might expect a person that reluctantly kidnapped some good but incompetent innocents to be be somewhat remorseful about the need, but she's the opposite. Now the Giant may be seeking to pass her off as having some sort of edgy (but still good) persona, but at the moment I don't think she's pulling that off.
Seems evil to me, but the next strip could easily show that to be wrong. She might even apologise for her behaviour.Last edited by Liquor Box; 2021-02-27 at 05:10 AM.
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2021-02-27, 07:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2020
Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread
Serini acting all casual after kidnapping them is honestly being played more as a joke here, if on top of expositing this pretty dark backstory she also had to brood about having to stray into the gray areas of morality for the greater good, that would kinda make the comic way too moody. Characters acting all casually in life threatening situations has been a running joke in this comic, adventurers especially are consistently portrayed as taking all of this in a very "business as usual" manner. I mean, even the paladins seem more annoyed than fearing for their safety here.
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2021-02-27, 08:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2015
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Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread
She went there specifically to buy Troll blood, so my assumption of her statement is buying one from the trolls, then getting one free when they found and saved her.
Well she did just tell them she's planning on letting them go free (minus memories) and hadn't actually given them any lethal poisons.Last edited by Mic_128; 2021-02-27 at 08:24 AM.
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2021-02-27, 09:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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2021-02-27, 09:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread
Miko is a bad example for your argument because she is proof that you can kidnap/ take other people captive, don't be apologetic at all about that and still be considered LG, remember she would only lose her paladinhood after killing Shojo.
I will say that it wouldn't be surprising if Serini wasn't good but I would guess neutral before evil. People are just not jumping to conclusions and waiting to see where this will take us. She seems more cynical and bitter than she was depicted before but still committed to defend the Gate and it's more important to know if she will be an ally or hostile to the Order which don't depend on her alignment.
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2021-02-27, 09:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread
A lie told to avoid more violence (i.e. a fight) and to avoid alerting Team Evil to the presence of all four of them. That's bad, really bad.
one drugging, one kidnapping, a period of imprisonment,
Not bad for someone whose appeared in three or four strips - probably a higher rate of mischief to airtime than Belkar.Last edited by Metastachydium; 2021-02-27 at 09:20 AM. Reason: Damn typos.
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2021-02-27, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread
Plus, Serimi has had all of what, forty seconds on-screen so far?
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2021-02-27, 10:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread
Just a random thought to interrupt the alignment arguments: have we ever seen what Halfling culture or society is like? Except for Belkar's unreliable narrative backstory, and his Good conscience expecting him to be jolly, I can't recall anything about how Halflings are in general in the ootsverse (whether it's a Pseudoshire, or a thieving pile of thieving thieves like 3.5).
It could be a good indication for why Serini is how she is. She's not screaming evil at me, she sounds embittered. If you'd gone your life as a regular jolly halfling only to become a pariah solely on your appearance, you'd be pretty cranky to some paladins as well.
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2021-02-27, 10:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2006
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- Portland, OR
Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread
You mean other than spending her adventuring fortune on building an entire dungeon filled with traps and monsters to both hide and protect a gate containing a world-killing abomination, which doubled as a tribute to a fallen companion who died while she and her party sealed the very rift that the gate was constructed around in the first place?
But the point I've made several times and nobody has seemed to have addressed yet is that she doesn't seem to have reluctantly kidnapped them in a manner that causes them as little discomfort as possible, she seems to be going out of her way to mock them.
Probably because no one thinks this is relevant.Last edited by Sky_Schemer; 2021-02-27 at 10:44 AM.
If you can read this you are too close.
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2021-02-27, 10:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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2021-02-27, 12:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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- In a castle under the sea
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Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread
1. It's more like a large number of thin slices, plus the more thorough slices that we've seen of his afterlife, plus how other characters describe Eugene's pizza as a whole.
2. You're basing your judgement on the receipt taped to the box. When other people point out that the slices we can see don't match the receipt, you just say that the rest of the pizza is definitely what the receipts says. It's an argument from ignorance; we can't prove that Eugene wasn't a saint whenever he was offscreen, so the receipt must be correct. Even though the very existence of a review process means the receipts are not inerrant.
Point 2 is important. You're perfectly willing to question our evidence, but curiously have provided none of your own. And that kind of argument happens to be a pet peeve of mine.
Fresh troll blood seems to heal whatever wounds you have with trollflesh. Considering that you can't get a blood transfusion without breaking the skin (or having some kind of serious medical condition), I'd be willing to bet that you'd end up with a troll-scar in the shape of whatever entry method was used to get access to your blood. Possibly there would be some internal changes, too.
Consequences would likely be more serious if the subject was physically immature. Troll blood is not approved for use in children. Do not take troll blood if you are pregnant or may become pregnant. That sort of thing.
That would be one crime instead of three. It's basic math, killing people would have been less evil than giving them drugs.
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2021-02-27, 12:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread
Serini is known to trade with the monstrous races, and even make friends among them?
My guess is that she’s almost certainly had contact with the local village.
I wonder how many of the locals know about her? And I wonder why they haven’t told Redcloak?Last edited by Dion; 2021-02-27 at 12:32 PM.
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2021-02-27, 12:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
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2021-02-27, 01:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2017
Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread
Old joke: "Yeah, but what have you done for me lately?"
Probably because no one thinks this is relevant.
(490, last panel is at least in my top twenty favorite jokes of the series... which is a high bar considering how many great ones we've gotten. (^_~) )
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2021-02-27, 01:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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- In a castle under the sea
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Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread
Assuming she has, which isn't certain but is pretty reasonable, the bugbears probably don't recognize her significance to Team Evil. I assume Serini, mildly paranoid high-level rogue. doesn't introduce herself and explain her backstory to every backwoods shaman who she buys alchemy supplies from. (Or if she does, she gives a fake name/backstory.) It also helps that, if Xykon and Redcloak were going to expect Serini, they'd expect her to have been resurrected, not healed with troll blood; even if Oona mentioned a halfling trader with a weird troll-face, Redcloak would have no reason to think that that halfling was the high-level Gate-watcher Serini Toormuck.
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2021-02-27, 02:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread
Sure. What about his wife, the person who spent the most time with him, almost 30 years, and probably knew him best, when she tells us he was a man that made her very happy, and that does not deserve to go to hell. She also informs us that his current irritable attitude is the result of his current circumstances, and thus not a pre-existing way of being.
GWLast edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2021-02-27 at 02:03 PM.
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2021-02-27, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread
Hah! I'm liking Serini. She feels like one of those puckish, lively old ladies that makes you think "she must have lived an interesting life". True that, I guess. For some reason, i'm picturing her sounding sorta like Judy Garland?
Last edited by woweedd; 2021-02-27 at 02:47 PM.
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2021-02-27, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-02-27 at 02:14 PM.
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2021-02-27, 05:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2016
Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread
To make that comparison you'd have to nominate something Shojo did that was equivalent to the kidnap and drugging.
I can't recall to what extent Shojo might be said to be directly responsible for Miko capturing the Order. Your mileage may vary on whether a national leader ordering the capture of some individuals ostensibly because they destroyed a gate is similar to an individual capturing some individuals presumably (we haven't got a clear explanation I don't think) because they might interfere with her defence of another gate.
The other point is that Shojo was in a lot more strips and might have done enough good to outweigh his part in the orders capture and any lies he told. I can't recall very well, although he was part of Belkar being redeemed.
I agree that you can capture people in some circumstances and still be considered good. I have been very explicit that I don't think anything Serini has done is conclusive that she's evil.
Her kidnapping of the paladins is only one reference point for her alignment. I think it (with the subsequent mistreatment) is an act that leans toward evil in the absence of other references. But I agree is she has a good reason, and other points of reference bring her more toward good, then she may be neutral or good.
You're also right that I determining her alignment now would be to jumping to a conclusion - I have been pretty clear I think that all I was saying was that she's showing signs of evil so far, not that she clearly was evil.
Sure, but also a lie told for no reason other than her own amusement by mocking the captives by giving them false hope that participating in a guessing game would lead their release.
If we are adding context, we have to add the good and the bad.
Yeah, she should have just killed them.
No, she should have left them alone. Perhaps engaged with them by talking if she was concerned their presence would interfere with important plans (like the defence of the gate) - she knew they were good and the worst that could come out of talking was that the disagreed with her and continued on their course of action.
Even if you stretch to thinking she had no choice but to kidnap them, she should have been very apologetic about her infringement on their freedom.
Killing them would be worse, but it doesn't make kidnapping not bad.
yes, I think that's part of the point. Even in that short amount of time she has managed to drug them, kidnap them, mock them, hit them etc etc
To be fair, that was a long time ago and the original proposition was that she'd become evil (although I suppose she may still be working toward the same goals). As arimareiji put it "Yeah, but what have you done for me lately?"
But putting that aside, how would you compare her to Belkar in terms of them being involved in gate-saving tasks counter-balancing their evil (if any)?
Probably because no one thinks this is relevant.
Is that what you think? Do you think that if you feel the need to kidnap someone for some greater good, you didn't owe them any explanation of that fact or decent treatment while they were captured?Last edited by Liquor Box; 2021-02-27 at 06:24 PM.
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2021-02-27, 06:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2017
Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread
I have a sneaking suspicion that kraagor was the token evil member of the scribbles, serini's drawing and her choosing monsters to represent him by but especially girard's quip about soon being glad to be rid of him
(I also think he has a role to play in the story still, we know too little about him and I think that's by design)
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2021-02-27, 06:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2017
Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread
she's also capturing them to protect her gate and is explicitly saying that she's going to let them go, not "if they cooperate", no threats, just "I'm going to hold you here untill I've brewed this here amnesia potion and then you can go on your merry way"
what do you think girard would've done if he'd have captured 2 of soon's palladins?
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2021-02-27, 06:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2016
Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread
Yes, that is what we assume her reason is. And if that is her reason it is certainly much less bad than capturing them for some selfserving reason. But I don't think that means it is not bad at all unless she truly had no choice (such as simply talking with them first). And I don't think that justifies her treating them badly post-capture.
I am no expert enough in the strip to answer what Girard would have done. i do seem to recall some anger by him toward Soon? Did he makie explicit threats, if so it might be reasonable to assume he would have carried those out.
If he had killed them that probably would have been an evil action. If he had captured them, mocked them, and ultimately released them (as Serini did) that probably would have been somewhat evil depending on context but may not have led to an alignment change depending on his other actions. If he had ignored them, rudely dismissed them, chased them off or similar that would have no effect of his alignment. If he had welcomed them, and taken the opportunity to let bygones be bygones that would possibly have been somewhat good.
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2021-02-27, 06:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread
Girard set a trap for the explicit purpose of insulting and then exploding Soon Kim. Him being willing to kill off any paladins that came his Gate's way isn't much of a stretch.
And personally, given the whole child abduction ring deal, I'd mark Girard down as the Evil teammate.
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2021-02-27, 06:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread
Nale and Sabine were very happy together.
EDIT: Lest people misinterpret me, my point is that being in a happy relationship is not a priori evidence of being Good. And I'd like to reiterate that, if Rich wanted to show us scenes of Eugene being a selfless defender of the weak and having a strong code of behavior, before he became a selfish grouch, he could have. He hasn't.
Spoiler: Start of DarknessTwenty or so years before the events of the main strip, Eugene skips Roy's soccer game to go drink at a bar then shows up after it's over being deliberately insulting and ignorant about it, when, as Sara says, he is clearly smart enough to learn enough about the game to support Roy. But belittling his eight-year-old son is more important to Eugene than that is.Last edited by Ruck; 2021-02-27 at 06:56 PM.
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2021-02-27, 06:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread
Ordered Miko to arrest them outside of Azure City's jurisdiction. If Miko and Shojo can claim universal jurisdiction over Gate protection, so can Serini. If Serini can't, Miko and Shojo can't. Same boat.
Also, there was that whole "holding people in secret prison off the record with no trial". Kind of an afterthought but that's probably worth counting.When was Belkar redeemed?
They had a Paladin, so I'm kind of doubting that any of them were Evil.Last edited by Peelee; 2021-02-27 at 07:04 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2021-02-27, 07:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2006
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- Portland, OR
Re: OOTS #1227 - The Discussion Thread
You mean other than "save all of existence?" You seem to be wanting to set her good/evil dial based on the weight of her actions. How does "every soul on the planet, plus all the ones that have come since then" come in on that scale? Just curious how you are figuring the lives of hundreds of thousands of people, and possibly millions of people, and their souls into that equation. When, exactly, does that balance get outweighed by "kidnapped two people"?
Also a key point: she is back here protecting the gate personally today, and the proof of that is right in front of us. So the answer to your question seems to work out in her favor.
But putting that aside, how would you compare her to Belkar in terms of them being involved in gate-saving tasks counter-balancing their evil (if any)?Last edited by Sky_Schemer; 2021-02-27 at 07:45 PM.
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