"Customizing your Origin in D&D"

[Boci]

The TL;DR is that "Optimization does not negate roleplay".

Except you just admitted an example of when it did. You weren't playing a character concept, despite liking the sound of it, because hobgoblins don't get wisdom. Optimization doesn't maker you roleplay your character worse, I believe that part, but it does negate roleplaying if it prevents you from choosing the character to begin with.

And that's what I expect the result is going to be. There's going to be a new lineup of 'best' races, but there's going a lot more races that fall into the 'decent for every class' range.

And it won't feel wierd that half-orcs will make better wizards than high elves? Its fine if it won't for you, I'm just checking.

[Segev]

It also synergizes with abilities like, say, the Evoker's ability to Overchannel. And Savage Attacks will work with things like Shadow Bladesingers or whatever.

So it's decent.

And that's what I expect the result is going to be. There's going to be a new lineup of 'best' races, but there's going a lot more races that fall into the 'decent for every class' range.

My issue is that this new lineup of "best races" is going to have a fair number of formerly "against the grain" races, making the meta of the game run to cross-purposes with the flavor of the settings. This sort of thing always bothers me.

For this reason, I won't be using it in my games.

I am, however, enough of a power-gamer that I absolutely will exploit it if it's in the rules.

[LudicSavant]

(PS: keep sunlight sensitivity, or you'll get nothing but drow PCs. )

Personally I'd rather get a bunch of drow PCs than a bunch of half-drow PCs, which is what we get from the mechanical incentives right now.

But then again, I like drow. Possibly because I completely rewrote their lore.

[x3n0n]

Even in MtG though some people roleplay. One of my friends only run Avacyn in a deck if they have a way to return a creature from exile. And D&D players, even optimizers, presumably have more reason to roleplay.

Oh definitely! I'd like to think that "normal D&D" is more like kitchen table Commander than it is like tournament Standard.

The risk that we seem to discuss pretty frequently here is the analog of having a Power-9-stacked deck that reliably kills an unbounded number of opponents in 4 turns at the same table with decks built to attack with creatures that can't even be played that early. That's where we count on player sensitivity, not playing things that prevent the other players' fun.


Tying back in: I think there is some risk of discovering that the "best" builds "abuse" mechanics that weren't intended when a race was initially defined. However, I also expect the vast majority of players and tables to just deal with it, and now we can all have fun building effective characters that don't have much precedent in normal fantasy.

[Dienekes]

It also synergizes with abilities like, say, the Evoker's ability to Overchannel. And Savage Attacks will work with things like Shadow Bladesingers or whatever.

So it's decent.

And that's what I expect the result is going to be. There's going to be a new lineup of 'best' races, but there's going a lot more races that fall into the 'decent for every class' range.

Definitely, I just suspect there’s going to be a lot of weirdness where the fluff of the races will be like the hobgoblin. Everything says they make such great and fearsome fighters. But all the mechanics say to make it an Int focused class that doesn’t get armor proficiency or weapon proficiencies.

[x3n0n]

There's going to be a new lineup of 'best' races, but there's going a lot more races that fall into the 'decent for every class' range.

Thank you! That's what I have been struggling to elucidate for the past day.

[MaxWilson]

And it won't feel wierd that half-orcs will make better wizards than high elves? Its fine if it won't for you, I'm just checking.

It weirds me out that halflings and gnomes are stronger than humans in featless games.

But in an AL context this move makes sense for WotC. I can view this as an AL-specific workaround for AL's mandatory point buy, which artificially narrowed the range of viable class/race combos, and this is opening it back up again. In an AL context it doesn't matter if halflings are stronger than humans because there's no AL-relevant difference between Str 17 and Str 16.

If you're rolling stats anyway though, this is a solution in search of a problem. You could already play that half-orc wizard with no loss of effectiveness, as soon as you rolled a 16+ for your stats, which is more than 50% of the time.

[jaappleton]

Except you just admitted an example of when it did. You weren't playing a character concept, despite liking the sound of it, because hobgoblins don't get wisdom. Optimization doesn't maker you roleplay your character worse, I believe that part, but it does negate roleplaying if it prevents you from choosing the character to begin with.

Ah, but you assume that's the only character I am waiting to build.

No lie, I have a witness to prove it (Paging DracoKnight), I've workshopped well over... Goodness, a hundred would be a conservative estimation... Over a hundred different builds. The military commander Hobgoblin was class and subclass agnostic. There'd be a few ways to do that, among them are Order Domain Cleric, Dirgesinger (From Exploring Eberron) Bard, and you can argue Chronurgist Wizard. Battlemaster Fighter is arguable, but IMO doesn't fit the bill for what I'm looking to do. If I don't have something which is perfect for a build, I shelve it, typically waiting until the perfect one comes along.

Now I don't have to wait.

And while those builds were shelved, I would workshop other builds. And play them. Like my current PC, a Kobold Ranger, the Outlaw Josey Scales.

And I have played many, many characters which were 'suboptimal'. My Eladrin Tempest Cleric named Serge saw a lot of play during our CoS campaign until he sacrificed himself to save a party member. As a Spring Eladrin, he left off a cliff a party member fell off of, and grabbed their hand before triggering his Fey Step, teleporting to safety before plummeting to his demise.

Eladrins get no sort of bonus to Wisdom or Con (Since they can use Heavy Armor, I assume we agree those would be the most optimal stats?) and I played him for... Hm... Roughly six months or so of weekly sessions.

[LudicSavant]

And it won't feel wierd that half-orcs will make better wizards than high elves? Its fine if it won't for you, I'm just checking.

High Elves were never a particularly great Wizard race to begin with, because +1 Wizard cantrip is better for races that aren't already Wizards. And of course people would just go Half-High Elf SCAG variant.

High Elves were already one of the 'below curve so people don't really play them for mechanical reasons' races. If anything, they'll probably see more play now that they can ditch their Int stat.

If anything I expect to see more High Elves post-change than I expected to see High Elf Wizards chosen for mechanical reasons pre-change.

If anything, what really felt weird to me was that High Elves are iconically supposed to be longsword-users and boy did they suck at it. A High-Elf has no reason to ever use a longsword without the new rule.

By contrast, orc wizards don't feel weird to me at all. A lot of iconic orc characters in fantasy are wizards or Wizard-like characters. For example basically the main character of Warcraft 3 is more or less an orc Wizard.

[Boci]

Ah, but you assume that's the only character I am waiting to build.

No I don't. I figured you didn't turn a game because of you couldn't make hobgoblin military commander work, and that you rather played another character instead. Nor does it particularly matter that you have played other suboptimal characters.

Ther fact remains you didn't play a character you liked the idea of because of your optimization instincts. This is not an example to hold up in support of the Stormwind Fallacy.

By contrast, orc wizards don't feel weird to me at all. A lot of iconic orc characters in fantasy are wizards or Wizard-like characters. For example basically the main character of Warcraft 3 is more or less an orc Wizard.

Okay, I know WoW is not the same as D&D, but they do share some themes and ideas, and I know there is mage (wizard) class and a warlock class. Guuldan gets his power from demons, I'd be interested in hearing how wizard is a better representation of him than fiend pact warlock.

[IsaacsAlterEgo]

Except you just admitted an example of when it did. You weren't playing a character concept, despite liking the sound of it, because hobgoblins don't get wisdom.

It feels bad to face a mechanical penalty because of your roleplaying creativity. At that point, it's a lot easier to just give up and go "Yeah, I don't want to drag the party down, I guess I'll just play a (race more applicable to the class)..." because it's going to suck being behind everyone else in your party.


Honestly, the best solution to this would have been to just scrub racial ASI's altogether and just buff point buy/standard array to compensate, I think. For rolling you can just have a free floating +2/+1 that can represent what your character focused on in Adventurer Training or whatever. Though Mountain Dwarves and Half Elves would have had to get something else to compensate them for the loss I feel.

Also a minor point: Some people seem very upset that a gnome can start as strong as a goliath now which seems very silly. DnD should not be about "realism" in a world where a regular non-magical human can become 1.5x as strong as a gorilla. Not to mention there are no rules against say, playing a 16 year old 5'0 human who weighs 95 pounds and reaching 24 strength, again completely without the aid of magic. This stuff should not be a concern and should be tossed out with the same old Gygaxian notions that female characters should be weaker than male ones. As for homogenizing, races are unique because of their abilities, not because they have the "Right Biology" to do the job they want to do without penalty.

[jaappleton]

No I don't. I figured you didn't turn a game because of you couldn't make hobgoblin military commander work, and that you rather played another character instead. Nor does it particularly matter that you have played other suboptimal characters.

Ther fact remains you didn't play a character you liked the idea of because of your optimization instincts. This is not an example to hold up in support of the Stormwind Fallacy.

I didn't play a concept because while Order Domain is currently the closest that would fit it, doesn't mean its the right way to implement what I want to play.

So while now I can go with any race I want for whatever class and subclass I don't, it still doesn't mean the perfect subclass for what I want to play exists. Because it doesn't exist yet. Order is currently closest, but doesn't mean its the best way to do it.

Likewise: Let's say I want to play Thor. I'd argue Thor gets multiple attacks per round, so he needs Extra Attack. Thor can deal Thunder and Lightning damage. I'd argue Thor to be some sort of Lightning and Thunder based Paladin, with high Strength. Not a Tempest Cleric. Does a Lightning and Thunder oriented based Paladin exist? Or Fighter, even? One that can encapsulate a feeling of evoking power like Thor can? I say no, no such subclass exists.

I haven't played a particular character concept yet because I don't want to force a square peg into a round hole. I'd rather wait for the right peg. If need be, I'll make my own peg to fit into that hole by homebrewing, but I'd rather use official material when possible.

[Boci]

It feels bad to face a mechanical penalty because of your roleplaying creativity. At that point, it's a lot easier to just give up and go "Yeah, I don't want to drag the party down, I guess I'll just play a (race more applicable to the class)..." because it's going to suck being behind everyone else in your party.

I'm not saying I don't get that, I don't think Iplay suboptimal class and race combinations that way either, I'm just saying that when it does happen, it is a specific example of the Stormwind Fallacy being wrong and optimization instincts negating roleplay.

I haven't played a particular character concept yet because I don't want to force a square peg into a round hole. I'd rather wait for the right peg.

But it wouldn't have been. Playing a cleric without a wisdom bonus is not a square peg in a round hole. You can play a perfectly functional cleric with 14 or 15 wisdom.

[LudicSavant]

Okay, I know WoW is not the same as D&D, but they do share some themes and ideas, and I know there is mage (wizard) class and a warlock class. Guuldan gets his power from demons, I'd be interested in hearing how wizard is a better representation of him than fiend pact warlock.

Guuldan isn't the main character, Thrall is, and he does not get his power from demons. He's basically a Diviner who talks to the elements. You could maybe argue that he's some kind of Elemental Pact Warlock but I can do more Thrall-like things as a Diviner than I can as a Fiendlock.

That said, Guuldan and Thrall will both be much more effective now.

[Xervous]

Also a minor point: Some people seem very upset that a gnome can start as strong as a goliath now which seems very silly. DnD should not be about "realism" in a world where a regular non-magical human can become 1.5x as strong as a gorilla. Not to mention there are no rules against say, playing a 16 year old 5'0 human who weighs 95 pounds and reaching 24 strength, again completely without the aid of magic. This stuff should not be a concern and should be tossed out with the same old Gygaxian notions that female characters should be weaker than male ones. As for homogenizing, races are unique because of their abilities, not because they have the "Right Biology" to do the job they want to do without penalty.

But humans can’t start out as strong as halflings. This is what gets verisimilitude day drinking.

[jaappleton]

It feels bad to face a mechanical penalty because of your roleplaying creativity. At that point, it's a lot easier to just give up and go "Yeah, I don't want to drag the party down, I guess I'll just play a (race more applicable to the class)..." because it's going to suck being behind everyone else in your party.


Honestly, the best solution to this would have been to just scrub racial ASI's altogether and just buff point buy/standard array to compensate, I think. For rolling you can just have a free floating +2/+1 that can represent what your character focused on in Adventurer Training or whatever. Though Mountain Dwarves and Half Elves would have had to get something else to compensate them for the loss I feel.

Also a minor point: Some people seem very upset that a gnome can start as strong as a goliath now which seems very silly. DnD should not be about "realism" in a world where a regular non-magical human can become 1.5x as strong as a gorilla. Not to mention there are no rules against say, playing a 16 year old 5'0 human who weighs 95 pounds and reaching 24 strength, again completely without the aid of magic. This stuff should not be a concern and should be tossed out with the same old Gygaxian notions that female characters should be weaker than male ones. As for homogenizing, races are unique because of their abilities, not because they have the "Right Biology" to do the job they want to do without penalty.

THANK YOU. I've been arguing this since 5E's creation. 20 Str is 20 Str, from a Gnome or Goliath shouldn't matter. It is still a +5 Modifier and does the same +5 Str. Now give small races proper usage of Heavy Weapons, damnit! (Or let them use GWM with Versatile weapons being used 2H, I'm fine with that too)

[Dienekes]

Guuldan isn't the main character, Thrall is, and he does not get his power from demons. He's basically a Diviner who talks to the elements. You could maybe argue that he's some kind of Elemental Pact Warlock but I can do more Thrall-like things as a Diviner than I can as a Fiendlock.

That said, Guuldan and Thrall will both be much more effective now.

Unless things have changed a lot since WCIII (I haven't played WoW), I always figured Thrall for a Druid. Uses Conjure Woodland Beings, the occasional dominate beast, has a lot of support abilities as he guides the Orcs to greatness. Hasn't gotten any of his magic through books as far as I'm aware (which was more the purview of Jaina).

It feels bad to face a mechanical penalty because of your roleplaying creativity. At that point, it's a lot easier to just give up and go "Yeah, I don't want to drag the party down, I guess I'll just play a (race more applicable to the class)..." because it's going to suck being behind everyone else in your party.


Honestly, the best solution to this would have been to just scrub racial ASI's altogether and just buff point buy/standard array to compensate, I think. For rolling you can just have a free floating +2/+1 that can represent what your character focused on in Adventurer Training or whatever. Though Mountain Dwarves and Half Elves would have had to get something else to compensate them for the loss I feel.

Also a minor point: Some people seem very upset that a gnome can start as strong as a goliath now which seems very silly. DnD should not be about "realism" in a world where a regular non-magical human can become 1.5x as strong as a gorilla. Not to mention there are no rules against say, playing a 16 year old 5'0 human who weighs 95 pounds and reaching 24 strength, again completely without the aid of magic. This stuff should not be a concern and should be tossed out with the same old Gygaxian notions that female characters should be weaker than male ones. As for homogenizing, races are unique because of their abilities, not because they have the "Right Biology" to do the job they want to do without penalty.

Part of the issue here, I think, is that 5e does a very poor job of demonstrating that.

We just had this discussion a few weeks ago so I'm going to draw on that a bit. But while "Ape" is supposedly any Ape, the stats given do not actually demonstrate what a gorilla can do. And by the numbers given in the PHB, a silverback gorilla can carry much higher than a Str 20 character.

So what are we to make of that? That all gorillas are ridiculously weak in 5e? That Ape is just a terrible representation of a gorilla. That the designers didn't really have a clear view of what they were doing when they got started which left us with a strange mess that is realistic precisely until it stops being realistic?

I don't know.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Unless things have changed a lot since WCIII (I haven't played WoW), I always figured Thrall for a Druid. Uses Conjure Woodland Beings, the occasional dominate beast, has a lot of support abilities as he guides the Orcs to greatness. Hasn't gotten any of his magic through books as far as I'm aware (which was more the purview of Jaina).

Yeah. Thrall is a Shaman (in-universe). No great match to any D&D class, but the closest thematic match would be D&D druid (not WC3 druid, although that's a closer fit). Summoning, nature-focused magic, elemental focus, light/medium armor. No arcane stuff at all, no books, much more "wisdom" than "intelligence" (scare quotes because those don't match the D&D terms exactly).

And WoW has them as an intermediate-armor, elements-and-totems class. Not a good fit for a wizard, certainly. Not a good fit anywhere, but that's the nature of comparisons to non-D&D media.

[Dork_Forge]

THANK YOU. I've been arguing this since 5E's creation. 20 Str is 20 Str, from a Gnome or Goliath shouldn't matter. It is still a +5 Modifier and does the same +5 Str. Now give small races proper usage of Heavy Weapons, damnit! (Or let them use GWM with Versatile weapons being used 2H, I'm fine with that too)

Heavy weapon restriction has nothing to do with strength, it's the weapons being to large to adequately wield when you're of such a small stature.

[KorvinStarmast]

THANK YOU. I've been arguing this since 5E's creation. 20 Str is 20 Str, from a Gnome or Goliath shouldn't matter. It is still a +5 Modifier and does the same +5 Str. Now give small races proper usage of Heavy Weapons, damnit! (Or let them use GWM with Versatile weapons being used 2H, I'm fine with that too)

Please don't, or then we see the Human Barbarian use the Fire Giant's Sword to get that nice 6d6 damage. (That's whey they didn't do that, I think).

Also: verisimilitude and all that.

[LudicSavant]

Unless things have changed a lot since WCIII (I haven't played WoW), I always figured Thrall for a Druid. Uses Conjure Woodland Beings, the occasional dominate beast, has a lot of support abilities as he guides the Orcs to greatness. Hasn't gotten any of his magic through books as far as I'm aware (which was more the purview of Jaina).

*Shrug* Whichever kind of caster you want to call him, that kind of caster was not well-served by a +2 Str / +1 Con statline. Also, in the lore weren't they constantly talking about how crazy smart he's supposed to be?

I just don't see why anyone would have an aversion to the idea of orc spellcasters. There are lots of iconic orc spellcasters in fantasy. Including in D&D lore! Maybe some people want to play characters like that sometimes without feeling like they're getting a swift kick in the shins for their trouble.

[jaappleton]

Please don't, or then we see the Human Barbarian use the Fire Giant's Sword to get that nice 6d6 damage. (That's whey they didn't do that, I think).

Also: verisimilitude and all that.

Why no Small races with 2H Versatile weapons?

If you want to make the weight of the weapon itself an issue, fine. So no Humans, or any PC race, wielding a Fire Giants sword. That I'm OK with.

But I do believe all playable races should have full access and ability to all PC options, which means feats. And Small races can't properly utilize GWM. I really do believe that's something which should be fixed.

[Boci]

I just don't see why anyone would have an aversion to the idea of orc spellcasters. There are lots of iconic orc spellcasters in fantasy. Including in D&D lore! Maybe some people want to play characters like that sometimes without feeling like they're getting a swift kick in the shins for their trouble.

You're conflating two things here. Not wanting orcs to get a bonus to intelligence, does not mean people have an aversion to orcs spellcasters. Its fair that not everyone wants to play an orc wizard without a bonus to int, but it doesn't mean the people who want to keep the bonus at strength and con don't want orc spellcasters.

[MaxWilson]

Please don't, or then we see the Human Barbarian use the Fire Giant's Sword to get that nice 6d6 damage. (That's whey they didn't do that, I think).

Also: verisimilitude and all that.

Power combo: an Eldritch Knight contracts lycanthropy from a werebear, then transforms to hybrid form (Large size). He Reduces a Fire Giant's sword to Large size so he can wield it, then attacks with it for 6d6-1d4 damage per hit.


Seriously, Enlarge/Reduce makes no sense.

[jaappleton]

Power combo: an Eldritch Knight contracts lycanthropy from a werebear, then transforms to hybrid form (Large size). He Reduces a Fire Giant's sword to Large size so he can wield it, then attacks with it for 6d6-1d4 damage per hit.


Seriously, Enlarge/Reduce makes no sense.

Deurgar Rune Knights can make themselves Huge.

>_>

[LudicSavant]

You're conflating two things here. Not wanting orcs to get a bonus to intelligence, does not mean people have an aversion to orcs spellcasters. Its fair that not everyone wants to play an orc wizard without a bonus to int, but it doesn't mean the people who want to keep the bonus at strength and con don't want orc spellcasters.

Right, you want there to be orc spellcasters, you just don't want them to be a good race for it. And are asking me if I would find it weird if they aren't one of the worse races for it.

Let's make no mistake here. An orc Wizard and a high-elf Wizard PC, without this change, are going to end up with the exact same Intelligence. They're both going to raise it to 20. The orc is just going to be missing an ASI somewhere else.

A human Barbarian and an Orc Barbarian in 5e, no variant rules at all, are likely to start and end with the same Strength score.

The 'races have meaningful fluff differences in physical limitations represented by attributes' ship was out of the harbor the day 5e was released. IMHO, you're holding onto its ghost.

[PhoenixPhyre]

*Shrug* Whichever kind of caster you want to call him, that kind of caster was not well-served by a +2 Str / +1 Con statline. Also, in the lore weren't they constantly talking about how crazy smart he's supposed to be?

I just don't see why anyone would have an aversion to the idea of orc spellcasters. There are lots of iconic orc spellcasters in fantasy. Including in D&D lore! Maybe some people want to play characters like that sometimes without feeling like they're getting a swift kick in the shins for their trouble.

Warcraft orcs are not D&D orcs. Don't mix the systems (mechanically). That way lies heartache.

And actually, his WC3 incarnation was closer to WoW's Enhancement Shaman (more melee, less casting). Which actually would like a +2 Str/+1 Con statline. So meh.

And I strongly object to the idea that not having a racial ASI that boosts your primary stat makes it unfeasable to play that character. That's out of line with the game's basic assumptions:
* main stat +2 at level 1, and never +5
* secondary stat + Con positive
* not wielding an inappropriate weapon (one that you lack proficiency or have disadvantage constantly with)
* not wearing inappropriate armor

That's the game's baseline. Anything else is entirely self-imposed.

I've seen tons of tiefling druids. High-elf fighters (STR focused). Etc. Games went just fine. Just because your circle is heavily optimization-focused doesn't mean the game itself is.

[Boci]

Right, you want there to be orc spellcasters, you just don't want them to be a good race for it. And are asking me if I would find it weird if they aren't one of the worse races for it.

No, I asked you if it was wierd if they would be a better race for wizards than high elves.

Let's make no mistake here. An orc Wizard and a high-elf Wizard PC, without this change, are going to end up with the exact same Intelligence. They're both going to raise it to 20. The orc is just going to be missing an ASI somewhere else.

Yes, but the rest of the half-orcs abilities, or one of them, are better than the elf's for a wizard.

The 'races have meaningful fluff differences in physical limitations represented by attributes' ship was out of the harbor the day 5e was released. IMHO, you're holding onto its ghost.

That explains all the Half-Orc Wizards we've seen since day 1, oh wait. Seriously, we if that were true we wouldn't need this new varient rule.

[LudicSavant]

No, I asked you if it was wierd if they would be a better race for wizards than high elves.

That's just the same thing worded differently, from my perspective.

[GooeyChewie]

But I do believe all playable races should have full access and ability to all PC options, which means feats. And Small races can't properly utilize GWM. I really do believe that's something which should be fixed.

What's the point of races at all at that point? Just cosmetic value?