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2013-02-28, 11:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
- Location
- The Great White North
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII
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2013-02-28, 11:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
- Location
- Texas
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII
lol. happens to the best of us.
okay. slime lord is awesome. I don't know what you're talking about. unlike oozemaster, it doesn't require casting to get in, so you won't have that thorn in your side as far as IC goes. (oozemaster's other incredibly awkward prerequisites aside)
it may not give the ruinous no save con damage that oozemaster does, but its paralysis is arguably just as good. As long as you focus on your con, people shouldn't be able to make the save, at least not easily.
charming gaze is also a gaze attack, so even though your cha probably sucks, you'll be beamspamming so many people at once every time you use it (1/day/lvl!) that you'll eventually hit someone
one more advantage that slimelord gives over oozemaster is actual immunity to critical hits. while oozemaster does give light fortification, and its capstone gives a variety of ooze traits (including immunity to mind affecting, one huge advantage it has over slimelord) it never actually becomes immune to crits.
slime lord also gives you alter self at will. if you don't think that's awesome, then I don't really know what more to say.
I'd be pretty happy with either ingredient, but I'd lean slightly towards slimelord, since SIs that involve casting limit chefs' choices more.I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!
Iron Chef Medals!
Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition
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2013-03-01, 07:27 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2012
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII
Nearly posted a potential build there, all i can say is I Want slime lord please. Yes yes yes.
Last edited by Vaz; 2013-03-01 at 07:44 AM.
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2013-03-01, 07:31 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII
Final[?] Tallies After Two Judges (After Disputes) as I'm assuming all disputes have seen judges' responses.
{table=head]Entry|Place|Total
Briggs|Gold|34
Jef Costello|Silver|31
Tacgnol|Bronze|30.75
Hammond Shadowstrike|Fourth|28.75
Nightman|Fourth|28.75
Mortumdal|Sixth|26.25
Krkitckl|Seventh|26
Geula Abishag|Seventh|26
Ynolar Darkheart|Ninth|25.25
Xen'kra Torkak|Tenth|24.5
Saleed|Eleventh|23.25
Keeliani Amaruak|Twelfth|20.75
Munemasa|Thirteenth|19.75[/table]
For those of you playing along at home and asking about psionic Secret Ingredients, we had War Mind back in Round XII.
Again, sorry for the delay but RL was a bit of a pinch this week between a huge launch at work and a few other things. I hope to participate in Kuulvheysoon's first go as Chairman in some way shape or form. Congrats on an awesome run to Amphetryon, and we'll be glad to have you back on the participant's side of things. Kuulvheysoon, thanks for taking up the role of chairman!
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2013-03-01, 09:36 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII
Surprised nobody's clamoring for Thief of Life, though it is likely too soon on the heels of another stealth-oriented PrC.
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2013-03-01, 12:20 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2007
- Location
- Bellona
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII
Sorry to hear that! I was looking forward to your thoughts. Still, I definitely understand real life getting in the way.
I know foolofsound mentioned possibly having results today, so we may be waiting on one more. Even if not, two detailed judgings and responses is pretty nice.
I've always hoped to see Thief of Life, but I agree, it might be nice to do a non-stealth PC first. Also, all this discussion of Slimelord and Oozemaster reminds me of the various BoVD prestige classes, like Thrall of Juiblex. And some of the Planar Handbook prestige classes could use some IC treatment - Cipher Adept comes to mind.
Man, there's still a LOT of mostly terrible prestige classes out there.....Optimization Showcase in the Playground
Former projects:
Shadowcaster Handbook
Archer Build Compendium
Iron Chef Awards!
Spoiler
GOLD
IC LXXVI: Talos
IC LXXV: Alphonse Louise Constant
IC XLIX: Babalon, Queen of Bones
IC XLV: Dead Mists
IC XL: Lycus Blackbeak
IC XXXIX: AM-1468
IC XXXV: Parsifal the Fool
IC XXX: Jal Filius
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2013-03-01, 02:02 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII
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2013-03-01, 02:40 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2012
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII
Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
Awards
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2013-03-01, 03:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2013
- Location
- GMT + 12
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII
Thief of life, could be good
A real life psionic class could be good
Not very interested in ooze
Or
Silver key?Last edited by 8wGremlin; 2013-03-01 at 03:12 PM.
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2013-03-01, 04:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2013
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII
Xen’kar Torkak, The Shadow's Fall
Spoiler-Originality: (4)
--Positive: Elves and their subraces tend to be underused. Backstory is well-written, if a little cliche. Drow, Scorpion Wraith, and Shadowblade are thematically and mechanically linked, and linked into backstory. Racial prestige class.
--Negative: Dark template was highly expected (even from an item). Tome of Battle dip. No particularly interesting capabilities/classes.
-Power: (3.5)
--Positive: Able to contribute to combat very well, and exploration competently. High damage output plus stat damage, plus a few sundry debuffs. Shadowblade directly contributes to both combat and exploration abilities.
--Negative: Unable to meaningfully contribute to information gathering, partial ability to contribute to social encounters. Poison ineffective against many high-level enemies. Only three uses of SS/day against immune enemies. Cannot effectively contribute to more than a single encounter per day against undead, elementals, or constructs (problematic in a tomb adventure, for instance).
-Elegance: (4)
--Positive: Scorpion Wraith flows into Shadowblade well. Fairly clean advancement. Build comes online when expected. Full advancement of both prestige classes.
--Negative: Three different sorts of “warrior” in five levels, with Swordsage not taken as a block. Minor item dependency (Collar). Launching item would require special DM permission, though the item is not central to the build.
-Use of Secret Ingredient: (4.5)
--Positive: Full Shadowblade advancement taken. Scorpion Wraith and Shadowblade fit well together thematically. Shadowblade directly complements the builds main strengths.
--Negative: Nothing in particular :)!
-Total: (16)
-Final Comments: I rather like this build; it manages to be highly capable without sacrificing flavor and without appearing overly ‘tweaky’. I could easily see this build be used as-is in a lower-op game without drawing DM ire. My main complaint against the build is that is has relatively poor ability to contribute outside of combat and stealth situations, particularly because it lacks strong alternative methods for dealing with Lifesense, Mindsight, and Poison/Precision immune creatures (which are too often one in the same). I also frowned upon the use of three different ‘warrior’ classes in less than five levels; Drow Fighter could have easily been replaced with Swordsage without unduly decreasing combat ability, while making the build feel more natural. Overall, however, I feel that the build is interesting and well-executed. Good job!
Saleed, Blade in the Shadow
Spoiler-Originality: (2.5)
--Positive: Thug Fighter variant is mildly interesting. Two-Weapon Fighting, on the other hand, is very
interesting.
--Negative: Generic, boring, overused human. Rogue/Fighter/Shadowblade is an extremely generic combination (the sample Shadowblade uses it).
-Power: (2)
--Positive: With the help of stat boosting items, able to contribute meaningfully to essentially any challenge. Effective in combat.
--Negative: Doesn’t particularly excel at anything other than combat and stealth challenges. Insufficient Attack Bonus boosters to effectively offset Two-Weapon penalties, though this could be partially corrected with items. Hide/Move Silently are weirdly low for a stealth focused character, though this could be partially corrected with items. No ability to Hide in Plain Sight makes SA/SS a pain. No backup plan against precision immune creatures, though this can be partially corrected with items. Assassin abilities and spells come online so late that the are essentially meaningless.
-Elegance: (3.5)
--Positive: Build is fairly straightforward, no real unnecessary dips, and only a single broken up class. Build comes online more-or-less immediately, and grows at an acceptable rate. Uses material from relatively few sources. Assassin and Shadowblade are thematically related.
--Negative: Assassin doesn’t particularly improve the build (could have just as easily taken additional rogue). Wierd single level of Rogue at 20.
-Use of Secret Ingredient: (3.5)
--Positive: Full Shadowblade advancement taken. Assassin and Shadowblade are thematically linked. Shadowblade improves the core capabilities of the build.
--Negative: Entered Shadowblade through generic class combination.
-Total: (11.5)
-Final Comments: If there is such a thing as a build immune to DM objections, this is probably it. While the build manages to make a fairly competent character with relatively few book resources, it simply doesn’t have the degree of optimization required to win this contest.
Hamond Shadowstrike
Spoiler-Originality: (4.5)
--Positive: Avenging Executioner has a very strong thematic and mechanical link with Shadowblade. Dread Blade/Rapid Intimidation is an interesting way to get your Sudden Strikes. Lion Totem Barbarian is a clever and interesting choice. Two-Weapon Fighting is an interesting choice, particularly in combination with Bite of the Wolf/Dragon Tail.
--Negative: Tome of Battle dip. Silverbrow Human is still only a slightly less boring human.
-Power: (4.5)
--Positive: Able to meaningfully contribute to nearly any challenge. Quite competent in both combat and exploration, plus some social encounters and sorts of information gathering. Shadowblade (and Dread Blade strategy) directly contribute to core capabilities. Very high degree of endurance. Backup strategies for precision damage (stealth and intimidate), plus Mountain Strike/Penetrating Strike for precision immune creatures.
--Negative: Attack penalties on many of the secondary attacks are not effectively offset, worse, this only be partially corrected with items.
-Elegance: (4)
--Positive: Avenging Executioner flows well into Shadowblade. Advancement is, for the most part, smooth. Mechanically and thematically well-executed. Low item dependency.
--Negative: Build comes fully online a little late, though the build remains competent at low levels. Two single level dips.
-Use of Secret Ingredient: (5)
--Positive: Full Shadowblade advancement taken. Avenging Executioner and Shadowblade fit well together thematically, particularly the fear/darkness theme. Shadowblade directly complements the builds main strengths.
--Negative: Nothing in particular :)!
-Total: (18)
-Final Comments: I love just about everything about this build; the idea of a shadowy, beastial predator who exploits his victims’ fear is a wonderful concept for a villain or antihero. The only simple suggestion I would make to improve this build would be to find a place for Imperious Command, as it so effectively augments one of the builds main strategies. An overall wonderful build; well done!
Krkitckl, Champion of Mab
Spoiler-Originality: (5)
--Positive: That is a backstory, alright. Combat Trapsmith is an extremely interesting choice (one that I wish you had made a bit more central to the build). Non-standard race with a non-standard alignment.Wizard is an interesting dip.
--Negative: LA race with LA buy off.
-Power: (1.5)
--Positive: Traps opening the door for SS is an interesting idea. Able to contribute moderately to combat and stealth challenges. Has secondary methods to deal with precision immune creatures.
--Negative: Unable to meaningfully contribute to social and information gathering challenges past very early levels. Shadowblade only partially contributes to core capabilities. Endurance is an issue thanks to Trapmaking Kit weight and limited number of spells and spell-like abilities. Lacks sufficient Attack Bonus to routinely make SS, much less Full Attacks, against most creatures with even moderate AC. Trap DC is painfully low.
-Elegance: (2)
--Positive: Advancement taken in block. Combat Trapsetter and Shadowblade have an interesting thematic link.
--Negative: Level adjustment buy off used. Single level Rogue dip in the middle of Shadowblade advancement. Wizard levels quickly become obsolete, and would have been better spent elsewhere. Build feels very unfocused. Build comes online a little late, particularly considering that the build would inevitably be behind the rest of the party thanks to LA.
-Use of Secret Ingredient: (3.5)
--Positive: Full Shadowblade advancement taken. Combat Trapsetter and Shadowblade fit well together thematically.
--Negative: Shadowblade only partially contributes to builds main strengths; the build lacks the direct combat ability to make full use of Unseen Weapon, or even SS, against higher AC enemies.
-Total: (12)
-Final Comments: I feel awful about having to rate this build so poorly, since it is probably my favorite concept, even if it isn’t the most powerful one. Excellent backstory, with great tie-ins to mechanics; I could easily see this character as a major villain’s henchman. Build would have been better served both mechanically and focus-wise by replacing Wizard, Rogue, and Ninja levels with Factotum (with Iaijutsu Focus of course), and perhaps even an extra level or two of Combat Trapsetter. Overall, this is a build full of great ideas that weren’t fully realized, and thus it is my recommendation for Honorable Mention.
Munemasa
Spoiler-Originality: (2)
--Positive: Shadow paladin is a mildly interesting concept.
--Negative: Boring human. Iaijutsu was expected. Trip-focused melee fighter is overused. Able Learner is overused.
-Power: (3.5)
--Positive: Able to meaningfully contribute to most challenges. Able to contribute substantially to combat and social challenges. Shadowblade promotes core capabilities.
--Negative: Build suffers from a lack of ability endurance. Build has no real backup strategy for dealing with precision immune creatures, and is unable to deal with special senses.
-Elegance: (2.5)
--Positive: Levels taken in block.
--Negative: Build comes online somewhat late. Reliant on items to make up for poor endurance. Paladin feels at odds with the rest of the build. Uses materials from quite a few different sources.
-Use of Secret Ingredient: (3.5)
--Positive: Shadowblade enhances, and forms, the build core capabilities. Full Shadowblade advancement taken.
--Negative: Paladin feels at odds with Shadowblade.
-Total: (11.5)
-Final Comments: There isn’t a whole lot I can say about this build. Competently executed, though with some blind spots. Mostly, I just found the build a bit uninspired; by no means bad, but not on par with some of the more interesting and impressive builds put out.
Jef Costello
Spoiler-Originality: (4)
--Positive: Well written backstory. Totemist and Animal devotion make for an interesting predator theme. Ninja is thematically linked with Shadowblade. Quite a few interesting alternate strategies in play here.
--Negative: Yet another human. Ninja is a fairly obvious entry for Shadowblade.
-Power: (4)
--Positive: Able to contribute substantially to combat and exploration. Able to contribute meaningfully to most challenges. Mindsight is amazing. Quite a bit of versatility. Some backup abilities against precision immune creatures.
--Negative: Daily endurance is only mediocre. Attack bonus is somewhat low, and cannot be easily fixed with items if using natural attacks.
-Elegance: (3.5)
--Positive: Most of the build use material from a fairly small number of books. Mechanically and thematically well-executed. Low item dependency. Build comes mostly online fairly early.
--Negative: Ninja and Shadowblade advancement interrupted. Two single level dips. Cleric feels a bit at odds with the rest of the build.
-Use of Secret Ingredient: (4.5)
--Positive: Ninja flows well into Shadowblade. Predator theme is interesting. Shadowblade complements builds main strengths, and is used in many interesting ways.
--Negative: Cleric feels a bit at odds with the rest of the build.
-Total: (16)
-Final Comments: A difficult build to comment on; very well put together, interesting both thematically and mechanically, and generally hard to make simple suggestions for improvement. I like this build, and I believe that many DMs would as well, though nothing really makes me say ‘Wow!’ like the highest rated builds.
Mortumdal
Spoiler-Originality: (4.5)
--Positive: Interesting use of shadowblade. Killoren is an odd, but interesting choice. Ghoul, Urban Ranger, Lurking Terror, and Shadowblade are thematically linked. Paralysis/Coup de Grace is an interesting tactic. Interesting backstory.
--Negative: LA template (but no buyoff!)
-Power: (4)
--Positive: Able to significantly contribute to most challenges; amazingly well-rounded. Passable daily endurance. Shadowblade directly contributes to core capabilities.
--Negative: Lacks an effective backup plan against precision/paralysis immune creatures (which are often one in the same).
-Elegance: (3.5)
--Positive: Build well linked thematically and mechanically. Low item dependency. Build comes online fairly early. Smooth power curve.
--Negative: Advancement in classes interrupted several times. Second Ranger level doesn’t add much to the build.
-Use of Secret Ingredient: (5)
--Positive: Full advancement taken. Shadowblade promotes core capabilities. Shadowblade well linked thematically throughout the build, and used in an interesting way.
--Negative: Nothing in particular :)!
-Total: (17)
-Final Comments: With a bit more refinement, this build could have easily been my winner. One of the most well rounded and overall best builds in the contest. Replacing one or both Ranger levels with a ToB dip for some anti-construct/undead maneuvers would have covered most of the builds weaknesses, and moving levels around a bit to be able to take class advancement in block would have covered the rest.
Geula Abishag
Spoiler-Originality: (4)
--Positive: Can’t say I was expecting Hellbreaker, Spellthief, and Duskblade. Top to bottom, build tied together thematically.
--Negative: Not a whole lot of backstory.
-Power: (4)
--Positive: Able to contribute meaningfully to exploration and social challenges, and substantially to combat. Shadowblade directly enhances core capabilities. Quite a few different combat options, many of which are not precision dependent. Fairly low item dependency.
--Negative: No information gathering or knowledge abilities. Doesn’t have the sheer power many of the other builds do.
-Elegance: (3.5)
--Positive: Progression very smooth. Fairly clean overall. Build very well constructed thematically.
--Negative: Mountain Tombstone Strike is taken illegally. Spellthief dip.
-Use of Secret Ingredient: (5)
--Positive: Full advancement taken. Shadowblade linked thematically to both race and classes. Shadowblade directly contributes to core abilities, and does so very well.
--Negative: Nothing in particular :)!
-Total: (16.5)
-Final Comments: This build is inspired and well put together; if only you had written up a more extensive backstory, and had not taken MTS, this build would probably be a solid contender for best. Clever and well thought out, I really don’t have any simple suggestions for improvement.
Keeliani Amaruak
Spoiler-Originality: (1.5)
--Positive: Mildly interesting backstory
--Negative: Know cheese race, known cheese templates, Tome of Battle dip, too many dips in general, build strategy cheese reliant
-Power: (3)
--Positive: Infinite Strength makes this build a combat monster. Plenty of endurance for combat encounters.
--Negative: Build has relatively little ability to contribute to any challenge that isn’t combat. Shadowblade does not contribute to the builds capabilities. Builds power based in known and obvious cheese than would inevitably be shot down.
-Elegance: (1)
--Positive: Comes online early, if mostly thanks to loophole abuse.
--Negative: Five templates, mild cheese race, six one or two level dips, massive amounts of known cheese
-Use of Secret Ingredient: (1)
--Positive: Not much.
--Negative: Didn’t take full Shadowblade advancement. Shadowblade only tangentially supports builds main capabilities. Shadowblade doesn’t complement the flavor (such as it is) of the build.
-Total: (6.5)
-Final Comments: Honestly, I don’t take kindly to this sort of cheese, nor the Incarnate Construct/Dustform loophole abuse. Overall, I feel that this build is deeply contrary to the spirit of the contest, since no sane DM would allow this character, and I rated it as such.
Tacgnol
Spoiler-Originality: (4)
--Positive: Knight is an unusual pick, and Shifter is interesting. Interesting and clever strategy.
--Negative: Dark creature template is highly expected.
-Power: (3.5)
--Positive: 55 ft reach plus Bulwark of Defense is hilarious. Contributes very well to combat. Shadowblade directly contributes to core capabilities. Great daily endurance.
--Negative: Unable to meaningfully contribute outside of combat, as stealth is likely to be negated thanks to lack of Darkstalker.
-Elegance: (2)
--Positive: Advancement taken in block.
--Negative: Fighter dip. Comes online very, very later, though it can get by until then. A build having three different types of ‘warrior’ class feels very odd.
-Use of Secret Ingredient: (2.5)
--Positive: Full advancement taken.
--Negative: Shadowblade doesn’t feel thematically linked to the rest of the build. Further, it doesn’t particular improve your builds core abilities, and most of the classes features go unutilized.
-Total: (12)
-Final Comments: An interesting and clever bit of optimization that unfortunately is pretty impractical in actual play. Powerful, but fails to fully utilize Shadowblade, the primary goal of the contest.
Briggs "The Shadow Demon"
Spoiler-Originality: (4)
--Positive: Binder is unexpected. Build well-linked thematically. Clever use of abilities; doesn’t fight like a rogue.
--Negative: Binder+Bloodline is known cheese. Boring, standard human.
-Power: (4.5)
--Positive: Incredible versatility, able to contribute substantially to most challenges. Strong and versatile in combat. Great daily endurance. Low item dependency. Shadowblade enhances core capabilities.
--Negative: Lack of Darkstalker ruins your stealth a bit.
-Elegance: (5)
--Positive: Extremely straightforward advancement. No dips. Build viable at all levels. Smooth power curve. Comes online more-or-less immediately. Only two classes (plus bloodline). Binder (with Tenebrous) flows well into Shadowblade. Build well linked thematically. Low item dependency.
--Negative: Nothing in particular :)!
-Use of Secret Ingredient: (5)
--Positive: Full Shadowblade advancement taken. Tenebrous Binder, Demon Blood, and Shadowblade fit well together thematically. Shadowblade directly complements the builds main strengths. Fewer classes means Shadowblade feels less diluted.
--Negative: Nothing in particular :)!
-Total: (18.5)
-Final Comments: If I could give a higher Elegance score I would; I considered bumping down everyone elses’ Elegance just to make your higher by comparison. A truly wonderful build; just find a place for Darkstalker!
Ynolar Darkheart
Spoiler-Originality: (3)
--Positive: Shadow Cloak Paladin is interesting. Build well tied thematically.
--Negative: Unseelie Fey is known cheese. Whisper gnome is pretty overused for rogue-esque characters.
-Power: (3)
--Positive: Able to significantly contribute to combat and exploration challenges. Very well optimized stealth abilities. Shadowblade directly complements core capabilities.
--Negative: Unable to contribute to info gathering or social challenges. Hide in Plain sight requires shadow, which is at odds with flight. Combat ability isn’t that impressive compared to some of the other builds. Fairly high degree of item dependency. No real backup plan for precision/poison immune creatures (often one in the same).
-Elegance: (4)
--Positive: Smooth power progression. Comes online fairly quickly. Advancement taken in block. Build thematically linked.
--Negative: Unseelie Fey counts as questionable material.
-Use of Secret Ingredient: (3.5)
--Positive: Full advancement taken. Shadowblade promotes core capabilities. Shadowblade links with Paladin of Tyranny/Shadow Cloak Knight.
--Negative: Class feels underutilized, it doesn’t really synergize with any other abilities in a powerful way.
-Total: (13.5)
-Final Comments: Stealth is good, but does not a character make. This build spends so many resources trying to escape notice that forgets to have powerful ways to take advantage of its stealth. Playable, but lacks the power of most of the other builds.
Nightman
Spoiler-Originality: (4)
--Positive: Monk is an interesting choice, particularly all the substitution levels. Skarn is unexpected as well. Umbral Disciple ties the monk to the Shadowblade seamlessly.
--Negative: Nothing in particular :)!
-Power: (3.5)
--Positive: Able to contribute effectively to most challenges. Quite capable in combat and exploration. Good daily endurance. Several ways to contribute in combat against precision immune enemies. Shadowblade directly contributes to core abilities.
--Negative: No Darkstalker makes stealth much less useful, though your build can get around it. Build lacks the power to fully take advantage of its flat-footed forcing capabilities.
-Elegance: (4)
--Positive: Straightforward advancement. Umbral Disciple ties monk to Shadowblade perfectly. Low item dependency. Smooth power curve. Build viable at all levels.
--Negative: Multiple types of substitution levels is a bit odd.
-Use of Secret Ingredient: (4.5)
--Positive: Full advancement taken. Enhances core capabilities. Extremely well tied in thematically and mechanically.
--Negative: Nothing in particular :)!
-Total: (16)
-Final Comments: Another build that I like pretty well, but feel that it could use a little bit of reworking. Finding a way to add both Craven and Darkstalker would make this build much, much better at what it does. Overall the build is well rounded and well designed.
Totals:
Spoiler1 - Briggs the Shadow Demon (18.5)
2 - Hammond Shadowstrike (18)
3 - Mortumdal (17)
4 - Geula Abishag (16.5)
5 - Xen’kar Torkak, the Shadow’s Fall (16)
5 - Jef Costelo (16)
5 - Nightman (16)
8- Ynolar Darkheart (13.5)
9 - Krkitckl, Champion of Mab (12)
9 - Tacgnol (12)
11 - Saleed, Blade in the Shadow (11.5)
11 - Munemasa (11.5)
13 - Keeliani Amaruak (6.5)
I'm sure you can see from the length of my comments how far I got before I become busy with other work. Overall, I liked many of the builds in the contest, and would like to give all the participants both my thanks for such a wonderful contest, and congratulations on performing well.Last edited by foolofsound; 2013-03-01 at 04:34 PM.
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2013-03-01, 05:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
- Location
- Texas
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII
{table=head]Entry|Place|Total
Briggs|Gold|52.5
Jef Costello|Silver|47
Hammond Shadowstrike|Bronze|46.75
Nightman|Fourth|44.75
Mortumdal|Fifth|43.25
Tacgnol|Sixth|42.75
Geula Abishag|Seventh|42.5
Xen'kra Torkak|Eighth|40.5
Ynolar Darkheart|Ninth|38.75
Krkitckl|Tenth|38
Saleed|Eleventh|34.75
Munemasa|Twelfth|31.25
Keeliani Amaruak|Thirteenth|27.25[/table]
updated table with the most recent judgingsI've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!
Iron Chef Medals!
Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition
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2013-03-01, 07:25 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
- Location
- The Great White North
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII
Thanks for the update, Venger.
So, looks like the other judges thought much the same of Keeliani's build that I did. Interesting.
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2013-03-01, 08:40 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
- Location
- Texas
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII
I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!
Iron Chef Medals!
Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition
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2013-03-01, 09:35 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII
Looking over the PRC again...it is quite as horrible as I remembered. Certainly not bad enough to be a bad SI. I still wouldn't classify it as "awesome" for a few reasons:
- The Paralytic Slime is actually not that great of a ability because they can only be used on your pseudopods. You can only use two natural attacks with hi pseudopods as a full attack action, or one attack as a standard action. This is pretty terrible. Plus the DC won't be that great unless you really pump Con (and this will be hard to do on a sneaky character which is what this class is geared towards).
- You don't get any of the social skills as class skills which severely limits Disguises usefullness. The charming gaze could have benefitted from it as well.
- Alter Self at will is indeed awesome. It's probably the best feature of the class. The problem is that you can't combine other natural attacks with your pseudopods which sucks. Alter Self at will is still pretty great though.
- You only get 4+ Int skills per level. This is a very hard hit towards the sneaky classes which synergize with this class because most are skillmonkeys. Monk is the only one I can think of off the top of my head that isn't (and it's Wis based so that's another stat to add onto).
- Charming Gaze is a great feature. After you hit enemies with it once the ones that weren't charmed are probably going to avert their eyes though so it's probably best to only use it once per fight (you have limited uses after all). It's still a pretty good feature though.
So yeah, not awesome but still okay probably. I'd classify it as a -1 PRC. It probably looked worse than it actually was since I was also experimenting with Thrall of Juiblex which is an awesome ooze-themed PRC. You get full BAB, All good saves, Alter Self and Polymorph at will (albiet up to 4 HD and 8 HD respectively), as well as all the immunities of Slime Lord. It probably made me biased.
I would prefer Oozemaster because it's abilities are more unique (type changes to ooze for determing what effects and items can do to him, ability to squeeze through an inch-wide crack etc). Plus it's requirements are very open too. Almost every casting PRC can be advanced by it.
On a completely urelated note I've been thinking about Jef Costello's build and it seems that for a more high powered version of him, the ghost template would actually be really nice.
It would make the need for ninja obsolete (thus freeing up 3 levels). It would render Move Silently pointless thus freeing up skill points (though this would probably lower UoSI scores since it means the 5 ranks in Move Silently you need to get into the PRC are wasted as well as partially reducing the effectivness of the Shadow and Stealth class feature), the abilities would mesh well with the character, It would allow him to go ethereal as many times as he wants for as long as he wants, It would allow for an alternate method of attack with the Quicken Manifestation feat from Libris Mortis, and it would allow him to take Flyby Attack without relying on the dubious legality of using animal devotion (he can also fly as long as he wants).
The only problem I can see is that it takes away focus from the SI (also, 1 level in the Savage Progression would be more optimal but also more cheesy. The build would still be fine with the full template).
Thoughts?Last edited by 123456789blaaa; 2013-03-01 at 09:36 PM.
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2013-03-01, 11:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII
- if you don't invest in con, then the ability will be rather lame, but since it's one of your most important class features, you kinda should, especially if it's for iron chef.
- You don't get any of the social skills as class skills which severely limits Disguises usefullness. The charming gaze could have benefitted from it as well.
you get bluff, and with your charming gaze, you kinda don't need diplo all that much. your disguise skill is less for use with disguise on its own, and more to bolster your alter self, which you'll remember gives a +10 untyped bonus. enough to carry you on its own since you dumped cha? nah. but with support by having disguise as a class skill? hells yeah
- Alter Self at will is indeed awesome. It's probably the best feature of the class. The problem is that you can't combine other natural attacks with your pseudopods which sucks. Alter Self at will is still pretty great though.
- You only get 4+ Int skills per level. This is a very hard hit towards the sneaky classes which synergize with this class because most are skillmonkeys. Monk is the only one I can think of off the top of my head that isn't (and it's Wis based so that's another stat to add onto).
- Charming Gaze is a great feature. After you hit enemies with it once the ones that weren't charmed are probably going to avert their eyes though so it's probably best to only use it once per fight (you have limited uses after all). It's still a pretty good feature though.
So yeah, not awesome but still okay probably. I'd classify it as a -1 PRC. It probably looked worse than it actually was since I was also experimenting with Thrall of Juiblex which is an awesome ooze-themed PRC. You get full BAB, All good saves, Alter Self and Polymorph at will (albiet up to 4 HD and 8 HD respectively), as well as all the immunities of Slime Lord. It probably made me biased.
I would prefer Oozemaster because it's abilities are more unique (type changes to ooze for determing what effects and items can do to him, ability to squeeze through an inch-wide crack etc). Plus it's requirements are very open too. Almost every casting PRC can be advanced by it.
On a completely urelated note I've been thinking about Jef Costello's build and it seems that for a more high powered version of him, the ghost template would actually be really nice.
It would make the need for ninja obsolete (thus freeing up 3 levels). It would render Move Silently pointless thus freeing up skill points (though this would probably lower UoSI scores since it means the 5 ranks in Move Silently you need to get into the PRC are wasted as well as partially reducing the effectivness of the Shadow and Stealth class feature), the abilities would mesh well with the character, It would allow him to go ethereal as many times as he wants for as long as he wants, It would allow for an alternate method of attack with the Quicken Manifestation feat from Libris Mortis, and it would allow him to take Flyby Attack without relying on the dubious legality of using animal devotion (he can also fly as long as he wants).
The only problem I can see is that it takes away focus from the SI (also, 1 level in the Savage Progression would be more optimal but also more cheesy. The build would still be fine with the full template).
Thoughts?I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!
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2013-03-01, 11:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII
All HAIL Juiblex!!!
errr... wait, I mean
All HAIL Ghaunadaur!!!
wait... errr can I worship them both?
All HAIL The Slime Pantheon!!!
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2013-03-02, 12:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII
I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!
Iron Chef Medals!
Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition
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2013-03-02, 12:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII
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2013-03-02, 05:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII
In what book do I find this "Darkstalker" that everyone seems to lack? I'm assuming it's a feat?
Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put a tomato in a fruit salad.
Outlandish Claim #5:
No plan survives first contact with the PCs.
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2013-03-02, 05:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII
Lords of Madness pg 179
Darkstalker
When you hide, creatures with blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense must make a Listen check or a Spot check (whichever DC is higher) to notice you, just as sighted creatures would make Spot checks to detect you. You cannot hide in plain sight unless you have that ability as a class feature. In addition, you can flank creatures that have the all-around vision special quality.
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2013-03-02, 08:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII
- Nope. It states "Slime Lords natural attack".
- You don't get any of the social skills as class skills which severely limits Disguises usefullness. The charming gaze could have benefitted from it as well.
- Alter Self at will is indeed awesome. It's probably the best feature of the class. The problem is that you can't combine other natural attacks with your pseudopods which sucks. Alter Self at will is still pretty great though.
- You only get 4+ Int skills per level. This is a very hard hit towards the sneaky classes which synergize with this class because most are skillmonkeys. Monk is the only one I can think of off the top of my head that isn't (and it's Wis based so that's another stat to add onto).
- Charming Gaze is a great feature. After you hit enemies with it once the ones that weren't charmed are probably going to avert their eyes though so it's probably best to only use it once per fight (you have limited uses after all). It's still a pretty good feature though.
So yeah, not awesome but still okay probably. I'd classify it as a -1 PRC. It probably looked worse than it actually was since I was also experimenting with Thrall of Juiblex which is an awesome ooze-themed PRC. You get full BAB, All good saves, Alter Self and Polymorph at will (albiet up to 4 HD and 8 HD respectively), as well as all the immunities of Slime Lord. It probably made me biased.
I would prefer Oozemaster because it's abilities are more unique (type changes to ooze for determing what effects and items can do to him, ability to squeeze through an inch-wide crack etc).
Plus it's requirements are very open too. Almost every casting PRC can be advanced by it.
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2013-03-02, 01:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII
Reply to Venger:
SpoilerMost of the Con boosting methods use class levels. Most of these classes are pure melee and don't have much use for Cha. If you're trying to build a melee character than it's not really hard but if you aren't...and even if you are trying to build a melee character it gets harder to justify why exactly you're taking Slime Lord levels when you could be taking better melee PRC's that boost Con more and get more use out of it.
Also, most melee classes don't have Disguise or Bluff on their skill list (this is fixed with a feat but I'm trying to evaluate the class on its own).
Ah I didn't see that. I concede the point.
Yup.
The only two entries I can think of are sneak and melee. I assumed sneak because I assumed you wanted to get the most mileage out of the pseudopods (1 hit builds are usually not pure melee builds) and because of the 3/4 BAB (and because the melee classes usually don't get Disguise or Bluff on their skill list). When fighting with them you will only be able to hit once (using a full attack action for two hits is a waste) so you'll want to stack on status effects/damage. Melee builds usually need more attacks than 1.
If you ignored the pseudopods you could enter with melee classes which would lose less yes.
I may be missing something but it seems by RAW only the creature with the gaze attack would get the concealment.
Not only that but since each use of the charming gaze only lasts for 1 round you'd have to activate it again each round to get the concealment...and you only have level/day uses!
Yup. I gave my reasons for my assumptions above.
I'd put the Slime Lord on the level of a PRC like Mythic Exemplar.
Reply to Vaz:
SpoilerParalytic Slime (Ex): A slime lord’s pseudopods are coated with slime that can paralyze a foe. Any creature struck by a slime lord’s natural attack must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 10 + slime lord level + slime lord’s Con modifi er) or be paralyzed for 1d4+1 rounds.
See my reply to Venger
Pseudopods (Ex): The physical form of a slime lord is more mutable than that of a normal creature of his type. As a move action, a slime lord can transform his hands into pseudopods or back into normal hands. He can make two natural attacks with his pseudopods as a full attack action, or one attack as a standard action. Each successful attack deals 1d6 points of damage. The transformation lasts for up to 1 round per slime lord level, though the character can change his pseudopods back into hands before the expiration of the effect as a move action. The slime lord can use this ability once per day at 1st level. Thereafter, he gains one additional use per day for every two slime lord levels. Thus, he can use the ability twice per day at 3rd level, three times per day at 5th level, four times per day at 7th level, and
fi ve times per day at 9th level.
Monk is a sneaky class that isn't a skillmonkey. This means it doesn't lose as much from going into Slime Lord.
Flurry doesn't work with the pseudopods but that can be fixed with the Decisive Strike variant. The problem with monk is that it adds Wis dependancy. Probably worth it though.
See my reply to Venger regarding the concealment. The out-of-combat use is fine though.
Theres not much synergy. Almost all the good features overlap.
I never said that Slime Lord wasn't open . See some of my replys to Venger to see why I think Slime Lord is a bit more restricted in build options that it initially seems.
It's good to be biased?
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2013-03-02, 02:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII
Hmm, you're right, Darkstalker is a must-have feat for sneaky types. I'll have to find a copy of LoM for next ICOC.
Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put a tomato in a fruit salad.
Outlandish Claim #5:
No plan survives first contact with the PCs.
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2013-03-02, 02:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII
sure, that makes sense
Ah I didn't see that. I concede the point.
The only two entries I can think of are sneak and melee. I assumed sneak because I assumed you wanted to get the most mileage out of the pseudopods (1 hit builds are usually not pure melee builds) and because of the 3/4 BAB (and because the melee classes usually don't get Disguise or Bluff on their skill list). When fighting with them you will only be able to hit once (using a full attack action for two hits is a waste) so you'll want to stack on status effects/damage. Melee builds usually need more attacks than 1.
I may be missing something but it seems by RAW only the creature with the gaze attack would get the concealment.
gaze attacks let you "avert your gaze" to only have to have a 50% chance of having to make the save in exchange for granting the gazer concealment.
however, if your enemy wants to protect themselves fully, they can close their eyes (effectively blinding themselves) which gives the gazer and all other enemies the saver may be facing total concealment
Not only that but since each use of the charming gaze only lasts for 1 round you'd have to activate it again each round to get the concealment...and you only have level/day uses!I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!
Iron Chef Medals!
Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition
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2013-03-02, 02:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII
" Any creature struck by a slime lord’s natural attack must succeed on a Fortitude save"
That is the crunch. No mention of pseudopods. If it was intended to be pseudopods only, why did they not mention that in the pseudopods entry? Why did they mention the slime in a seperate entry at all when if it was for the pseudopods alone, it wasn't included in that entry. An unarmed strike is a natural attack. If an opponent is hit by a natural attaclk, pseudopod, or otherwise, they take the Slime paralyze.
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2013-03-02, 02:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII
Yeah, it's pretty clutch. To give you an idea of how necessary it is, in the SRD alone, just looking at monsters with a CR of 5 and below, you've got...
27 creatures with blindsense
9 creatures with blindsight
83 creatures with scent
14 creatures with tremorsense
...and that's with NO doubling up - if a creature, for example, has both blindsense and scent, I only list the "better" one (generally the one with a bigger range). Again, that's just the SRD, and just CRs 5 and below, and you've got 133 creatures that will more or less automatically detect you if you don't have Darkstalker. You can have epic hide and move silently checks, but if your enemy happens to have, say, a CR 1/8 rat or a CR 1/3 guard dog with them, they'll notice you as soon as you get within 30'.Optimization Showcase in the Playground
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IC XXX: Jal Filius
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2013-03-02, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII
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2013-03-02, 02:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII
An opponent can avert his eyes from the creature’s face, looking at the creature’s body, watching its shadow, or tracking the creature in a reflective surface. Each round, the opponent has a 50% chance of not having to make a saving throw. The creature with the gaze attack gains concealment relative to the opponent. An opponent can shut his eyes, turn his back on the creature, or wear a blindfold. In these cases, the opponent does not need to make a saving throw. The creature with the gaze attack gains total concealment relative to the opponent.
Hm yes, I didn't think of that. I concede the point again.
Ah I see. I beleive the RAI was that the slime would only coat the pseudopods (due to it saying "A slime lord’s pseudopods are coated with slime that can paralyze a foe.") but of course RAI doesn't count for much.
For a RAW argument I would point out that it says "natural attack" not attacks. So by RAW only one of the natural attacks would gain the benefit of the slime. Since it doesn't say which natural attack gets the benefit of the slime the most sensible interpretation is too assume it only applies to the pseudopods (though you could make the argument that you get to choose).
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2013-03-02, 07:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII
Final Reveal! Good show, everyone; I look forward to being on the other side of this process in the future.
{table=head]Entry|Place|Total
Briggs, by Gotterdammerung|Gold|52.5
Jef Costello, by Piggy Knowles|Silver|47
Hammond Shadowstrike, by Darkcouch|Bronze|46.75
Nightman, by Venger|Fourth|44.75
Mortumdal, by Macabaret (HM)|Fifth|43.25
Tacgnol, by The Viscount|Sixth|42.75
Geula Abishag, by rockdeworld|Seventh|42.5
Xen'kra Torkak, by 8wGremlin|Eighth|40.5
Ynolar Darkheart, by 8wGremlin|Ninth|38.75
Krkitckl, by sabelo2000|Tenth|38
Saleed, by Droark|Eleventh|34.75
Munemasa, by smasher0404|Twelfth|31.25
Keeliani Amaruak, by Vaz|Thirteenth|27.25[/table]
The next Iron Chef will be up when Kuulvheysoon decides he's ready.
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2013-03-02, 08:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In the Playground XLII
well, congrats all around!
can't wait to start cooking the next dish, Kuulvheysoon!I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!
Iron Chef Medals!
Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition