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2021-04-22, 11:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
It seems Durkon didn't have much thought to the implications of D&D afterlife being a glorified albeit complex digestive tract; at least until now.
Last edited by faustin; 2021-04-22 at 12:00 PM.
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2021-04-22, 12:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
Literal world building.
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2021-04-22, 12:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
It affects the question of malice. That the goblins are screwed is understood. It is, however, relevant to negotiations between the goblins and the gods. If the gods were in fact malicious, they cannot be expected to negotiate in good faith. This is TDO's viewpoint, and he has reason to think that way. If it was pantheonic indifference, negotiations are potentially easier. Basically, I think it has relevance to the eventual outcome of the story line.
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2021-04-22, 12:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
Yeah, though the question is now what? The gods can tell their worshippers not to slay goblins anymore (least, as XP fodder, self-defense still applies), but that would require getting most of the gods on board, including the ones that actually run the land, environment, winds and so on. And that's a process in it of itself. The mortals, by and large, have to be the one to solve this one for this world.
Then again, they are the ones who ultimately made goblins "XP fodder". The gods just didn't tell them no. That's the thing with free will and self-determination... cleaning up your mess and having to clean up other peoples' messes when they get too big and or too numerous and or too stinky to tolerate.
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2021-04-22, 12:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
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2021-04-22, 12:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
I think one thing we've seen in abundance in OotS, for good or ill, is multiple largely-homogenous communities. Goblins tend to stick with other goblins. Elves stick with elves. Dwarves live up near the North Pole, and only a few venture forth. Remember how Laurin hates elves because they have the top lush portion of the Western Continent locked down, and everybody else has to "fight for scraps"? Humans intermingle, but that may be the exception more than the rule.
[Citation needed]
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2021-04-22, 12:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
Clearly it's a grammatical-mode thing. Other-god speaking to a mortal uses one form, god's own avatar speaking to other gods' avatars uses a different one.
(I'm re-reading The Curse of Chalion, and recently went through the bit which mentions the various grammatical forms of Roknari: master to warrior, master to servant, slave to master, servant to lesser servant, slave to scholar... all distinguishable in just a few words.)
Don't forget How To Eat Fried Worms.
Another factor in the rewrite was the need to regain copyright status after Ace printed unauthorized editions of the books without paying royalties.
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2021-04-22, 12:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by CountDVB; 2021-04-22 at 12:09 PM.
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2021-04-22, 12:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
Humans do seem to be exceptionally diverse, but it's not just intermingling with others. They have multiple distinct communities and many of them seem to have class differences within them. Not everyone's a noble. Some people are dirt farmers. The dirt farmers may have a claim of injustice.
The diverse communities we've seen could have all descended from identical clones having kids with each other? I suppose. Kind of gross to think about though.Last edited by Good Coyote; 2021-04-22 at 12:22 PM.
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2021-04-22, 12:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2021-04-22, 12:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
I don't fully agree.
It IS a much needed strip, yes, and very interesting. It also sheds additional light on the matter of the creation of the world when, previously, we only had the Dark One's word on everything.
What this confirms to me is that:
1) The goblins' plight goes to the heart of what we currently call 'privilege'. While ostensibly being equal and held to the same standard, in point of fact it is far easier due to circumstance for the under-privileged monster races to be pushed into being weak fodder for other species than it is for dwarves or humans or elves. The other races were special to one god or another. The goblins had Fenrir. Whatever he thought of them, it was evidently so dis-satisfactory that, in my view, the goblins fired him as god and turned to worshipping one of their own in his place. It's possible Fenrir never revealed himself to them or made worshippers of them, viewing them indeed as mere cattle.
2) We cannot wholly blame the good deities in the pantheon for this. This is not Middle-Earth, where all the world is fashioned to a Good design by Eru Illuvatar, and evil only exists because rebellious lesser spirits pervert his creation. No, this world was created by a mixture of good and evil gods from the start. Because of this, good has input into the process but they only get their way so long as they can persuade enough of the neutral gods to go along. As a result, there's a big section of creation that is evil by design, and the lot of the creatures so-created is thoroughly miserable. The system is unjust and broken from the start due to the presence of evil beings at its creation.
3) Because of this, while we cannot blame the good gods entirely we can certainly blame the three collective pantheons as a whole for setting up a rotten world. Unfortunately, this is an appeal that will only work on the good and neutral gods. The evil gods don't care -- in fact, making it a miserable place is kind of the point, as it fosters evil .
4) Thus , by the nature of good and evil which transcends the gods, the denizens of OOTS world have a legitimate grievance against their pantheons, and a legitimate pretext for war.
Making a better world will require either A) remaking it with the assistance of 'ally' deities or B) The Valkyrie Profile solution.
Spoiler
In the True Ending, Loki kills all the gods but himself, then Luneth kills him and ascends in his place, becoming the sole ruler and god of the world.
The downside is that even with mortal inputs or all formerly-mortal deities, there's no guarantee that the next world will be better than the current one. The gods reflect mortals, and vice versa. A new pantheon made up exclusively of former mortals would probably contains the same mixture of good and evil as the existing pantheon. Which means the new world would also be flawed.
5) This conversation gives Redcloak a pretext to pull the trigger on the snarl and end the world. You read it yourself: The gods aren't going to be making any big changes to the world now that it's been created. Which means the goblins are always going to have the rough end of the stick and Redcloak's dream of a peer civilization equal with the PC races will be forever unrealized.
Given this, Redcloak's likely solution will be to ensure the destruction of this world so that the Dark One will have a hand in making the next one ... IF he can ensure the Dark One's survival to that point, which at this point is doubtful, according to Thor.
Respectfully,
Brian P."Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."
-Valery Legasov in Chernobyl
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2021-04-22, 12:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
I love this kind of page, where you can analyse it from multiple perspectives. Here, there are three, maybe four ways to analyse this.
First, the in-universe way: What is the problem here? Not that goblins were created weaker. They are created different, breed faster and have almost the same intelligence and overall stats as humans. If anything, the goblin race as a whole might be stronger than humans, or any other LA+0 race. No, the problem is that the world is created with XP in mind. And that is something that really can't be undone. As long as people are expected and rewarded for killing other people ("people" being used veeeery broadly here), there will always be a rolling stone effect, with people who are better at oppressing others become even better at that with time. And that is something that is really tied to how Gods work. To survive, they need the souls they create to cultivate XP before giving it to them. And that is the point of everything. Mortals, in the OOTSverse, are really just cattle for the gods. Granted, most gods care for the races they create. They help them, give them spells.... But when a race was created with no real intent and gets abandoned by the god that created them, that's where one can question the goal of one's existence. Is it really worth living if you're only created to eventually become food for a god that doesn't even care? Wouldn't it be better to not exist at all? Or to try to topple the system? If you win, you win everything. Your race becomes more important, more well-fed, gets attention from the gods... If you lose,you cease to exist, but if life has no meaning other than as XP for people to get by killing you, and soul food for the gods, then you lose nothing. Pascal's bet, everybody.
But gods are as much impotent to change anything as mortals. They need souls to survive. And they need to survive for the universe to survive. So there is no real bad guy, here. Everything just tries to survive and live their life normally. But when you are so powerful, even a tiny error (you stop caring about one generic race when you are the god of every race in existence, since everybody is a "Monster" in D&D 3.5) makes millions of people suffer. And there is little anybody can do to change that. Increasing one race's power only means another one will get bullied into XP fodder status. Which leads to the second interpretation.
Second, the metagame: Redcloak thinks goblins as individuals are weaker than other races. That is not untrue. But fixing that would mean having every race have the same power level. What is really pointed at here is the balance of the game. What Redcloak seeks is for the game to be balanced. Not have monsters that are too much weaker or stronger than others, or than PC classes. If we go further, if it wasn't goblins, it would be kobolds, or locathahs, or any monster too weak for its ECL.
Balancing the game is hard. Gods have been at it for billions of worlds. WotC have been at it for 5 editions and countless books. They are all-powerful, in that they can create anything with any power level. But they are not all-knowing, and even when they make a conscious effort to balance things, it never turns out exactly as they predicted in the end. Monks were thought to be overpowered in the beginning of 3.5, to give you some context. And yet, they try. Goblins may have it rough, but they live, and they strive. They could even take a great paladin city. Very few classes are really unusable when well thought out. Almost no monster serves absolutely no role in the grand scheme of things. As Xykon said, "everything is oddly balanced". And that point of view leads to understanding that you can't change everything in one go. That's what Tome of Battle tried. Making martials not suck all at once. What it did was create another style of casting that made previous martials even worse. In-universe, it is the point of view that the Snarl must be contained forever. You can change balance little by little. But flipping the table will only lead to another, greater imbalance.
Finally, the real-world way: I'm not going to speak of it in this post, as I'm not sure how the rules allow it in this case, so I'll switch to another post that you will be able to delete more easily.Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
Do you want to build monstrous characters with reasonable LA? Join the Monster Mash! Currently, round XII: One-Punch Monster!!! Come judge single-strike entries!
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Searchable spreadsheet of 3.5 monsters by abilities, now with all online monsters
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2021-04-22, 12:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-04-22, 12:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
I don't plan on respecting Fnresnirs anyway.
I love how everyone who wants the Ring make excuses for wanting it:
Isildur: It's a trophy.
Déagol: I found it.
Sméagol: It's a birthday gift.
Bilbo: I won it in a game, fair and square.
Frodo: It's my burden, given by the Council.
Boromir: My people need its power.
Saruman: I could make the world just right with it. It's for the Greater Good, I promise. Also I'm Gandalf's boss, I should have a better Ring than him.
Samwise: I can share Master Frodo's burden.
Grishnŕk: I want it, **** you!Forum Wisdom
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2021-04-22, 12:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
1- Granted, he just creates the monsters. We don't know if they really worship Fenris. Creator deities that otherwise remain inactive in their followers lives is not uncommon. Heck, now I'm reminded of how Crom from Conan the Barbarian is with the Cimmerians.
2- Yeah, which is why they had to put in so many rules to prevent direct intervention. Odin's sand castle metaphor comes back into play here. I imagine the evil gods' agreed if because they know they'll also fight with each other and having a neutral playing field compromise preferrable to endless arguing and presumably starving.
3- Depends which neutral gods. I suspect a large portion of them would be the gods who make wind or fire or whatnot, the elements and aspects of natural. Amoral, but not immoral. The good gods can only do so much to convince their peers and that's after they've all decided to work together. Different deities of good can still disagree. Miko was "Lawful Good", but got on everyone's nerves regardless of alignment.
4- World is gonna be flawed regardless. Entropy demands everything be broken down and faults exposed, when hy we gotta keep pushing.
5- Forever unrealized because of Redcloak's fault. The one who screwed up his brother's work with the goblin/human community and the one who refused what was pretty much the best shot he had with his goals regarding the deal with Durkon, all because at his core's he's a frightened and angry teenager who's way in over his head and while hardened by experience, still too irresponsible to own up to his failures.
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2021-04-22, 12:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
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2021-04-22, 12:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
So, the real world way: Imbalances due to being born in some place instead of another, from some parents, with some amount of money. Inequalities are everywhere. And the same way as in the comic, it really is nobody's direct fault. Everyone tries to live as happily as they can, helping other people only if it doesn't make them too unhappy in the process. But there are efforts made to reduce inequalities, or at least help people with less opportunities due to their environment to live a decent life anyway. And that is the take-away from the "we gods can't change big things all at once". In real life, there isn't a Pantheon of Gods that can fix anything by snapping (depends on your religion, but nothing that sudden has been observed at least for a millenium). The "gods", that is to say, governments and big companies and organisation, cannot change things easily without getting overthrown or having unintended consequences. Religious terrorism and violent wars such as Vietnam haven't helped their cause that much, and often the exact opposite. But there is something we can do. Actions we can take without simply destroying the system. And that is the little laws, the multiple small changes that, in the end, make mentalities change. Nowadays is the part of history when the least proportion of people live in extreme poverty, die of illnesses or hunger, and are uneducated.
That is also one message that I found important in this strip. You have to understand the situation in a world to understand what is bad in it, and to be able to change it, even little by little.
OOTS has always had a message of acceptation and equality, but having a good character really try to understand what others have been through, and above all the source of it and find a way to help them is a great step forward. Thank you for continuing to give use this webcomic for so long.Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
Do you want to build monstrous characters with reasonable LA? Join the Monster Mash! Currently, round XII: One-Punch Monster!!! Come judge single-strike entries!
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2021-04-22, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
"You'll think of something."
Really helpful, Thor
And I definitely love Durkon directly calling him out on the systemic inequity. Yeah sure, any race can succeed, but the ones with the pre-existing advantages generally do. And the gods did nothing to prevent that, and are still doing nothing.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-04-22, 12:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
I agree with this take. It looks like parallel for being born in a rich nation with parents who care, VS someone born in a poor nation with parents who abandoned them. Dwarves had good land and plenty of God's who looked out for them, the goblins were born in a poor place with their creator just abandoning them. Note that more than one God supports the dwarves, not just their creator. So it doesn't absolve the non Fenrir gods. They could have looked out for anothers creations just like they do for the dwarves. It would have been free worshipping, an untapped share of the market!
Why didn't they do that?
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2021-04-22, 12:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
Noble/dirt farmer injustice can also happen. They're not mutually exclusive. But if, as Redcloak says, goblins can't walk into a human/elf/dwarf settlement without getting slaughtered on the spot, that prevents them from joining any alliances or cooperating to become stronger and more resilient. The fact that they are in a weaker positioning has the potential to keep them in a weaker positioning, effectively.
As for the "diverse communities" thing, I probably misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that the communities were created with a mixture of completely diverse humanoid races, with goblins and elves and humans and dwarves and orcs all living alongside each other. My mistake.
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2021-04-22, 12:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
Either non-interference clauses or given how many billions of worlds there likely have been, it's possible they just seem to lack the numbers to keep up to do so.
Probably because they didn't know what would happen and by now that they can, it's gonna be very difficult to do something. The gods are not one homogenous blob, but a wide and diverse faction, like mortals, and even mroe convoluted because they cannot stray from their core nature as we saw with Loki.
Though also, it is ultimately the mortals who have to stop the killing and be the ones who get along with the mortals and so on. Gods have try to instruct and motivate them, but mortals have ultimately listen and make the decisions.Last edited by CountDVB; 2021-04-22 at 01:01 PM.
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2021-04-22, 01:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-04-22, 01:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
I'd like to add to that - the Western Continent is mostly made of BOTH Lizardfolk and humans (plus elves way up top). Plus we've seen what appear to be Kobold communities that interact with other groups (at least something in Cliffport if we assume Mr. You Killed My Father was recruited there like Pompey), and I believe some other monsters interacting with humans/demihumans positively. It isn't just goblinoids, Trolls in particular seem to not interact with humans much based on Serini's conversation with Lien, but goblins having a lack of other races to interact with is a big issue for their own equity.
An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.
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2021-04-22, 01:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
Now, Back to Lurking!
Originally Posted by The Giant
Belkar's Death Countdown best guess: 31/49 days used before Belkar is gone forever more! - updated to morning at 1190!
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2021-04-22, 01:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-04-22, 01:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
I'd been assuming for years, without realizing it, that either Redcloak was right that the gods deliberately gave the goblins a terrible starting condition, or that he was completely wrong and the goblins didn't really have a divinely-created bad starting position.
The possibility that the goblins' bad fortunes were created by the gods by accident was not something I considered. But it does fit with the story.
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2021-04-22, 01:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
I guess they'd figure having Hel have one world of inanity would be not as bad as losing souls to the Snarl and plus, it would mean more deities would stand against her and try to defy her through their various peoples. That or she herself not knowing what would happen if she won regarding the "deific paperwork" if you will.
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2021-04-22, 01:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
Ahh, I understand. No, I was shifting the focus entirely to within-community situations there. It does seem that starting populations were "this group of elves starts here, this group of dwarves starts here," etc, and that intermingled communities are a result of the descendants of those starter groups choosing to become intermingled.
My point was that if the starting group of humans chooses, say, the physically strongest member to be their chieftain, then that chieftain's descendants are potentially advantaged by a genetic predisposition to strength, which was given to them by the gods (and can also be seen as everybody else being hampered as weaker by the gods).
It's also possible that your stats are rolled at random at birth and you cannot genetically inherit anything in ootsworld. However, the chieftain's descendants are now also advantaged by being the children of the chief. The beginning of inherited wealth. Maybe their line is more likely to have the opportunity to produce a hero who has a very high quality weapon which becomes an ancestral blade.
In addition, the people in power are able to make choices in disadvantaging other people in order to keep themselves in power within their own community (as the Azure City aristocracy does), just as the humans/elves/etc have the ability to collectively keep the goblins out of the circle if they choose to.
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2021-04-22, 01:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
The gods as an institution still have culpability here. As Durkon rightly pointed out, the general inequity of their origins and living situations is fostering and exacerbating that very conflict, so expecting mortals to do all the work needed to remediate it is neither fair nor reasonable. And not only do some races (e.g. Dwarves) have better land, food, equipment etc, they even have their own gods specifically to look out for their interests. Until The Dark One, the goblins didn't.
Last edited by Psyren; 2021-04-22 at 01:09 PM.
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2021-04-22, 01:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread
The problem the goblins are facing is a death spiral. Once they start losing, they begin losing FASTER. The game needs a blue shell.
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