D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

[Vogie]

I really want the performance feature in there, so I dropped the new spell Save DC to 3 + Performance Skill. That way, at max level, you can get your DC to 20 (Expertise maxes out at 12, Charisma caps at +5), but isn't 100%

Any thoughts on the Ranger Soulsworn Archetype? It's got the focus and the feel down, but it's a little bit passive. I'm thinking that it actually might be a little underpowered, especially the 3rd level ability.
I didn't want to give them straight-up Arcane Recovery, but I'm thinking my nerfed version isn't splashy enough compared to the Hordebreakers and Dread Ambushers of the world.

What I'd do is switch the Invocation with the 7th level feature that gives a Familiar. Even though it doesn't click into the warlock mechanical skeleton directly, Rangers already have a connection to animals, and they aren't huge spellcasters anyway.

What you could do is include the "you may give up an attack to have your familiar attack as a reaction" rider in the 7th level feature, alongside the invocation selection. That gives it a very Ranger-y feel by taking a (currently) Warlock-only mechanic.

[Bloodcloud]

Any thoughts on the Ranger Soulsworn Archetype? It's got the focus and the feel down, but it's a little bit passive. I'm thinking that it actually might be a little underpowered, especially the 3rd level ability.
I didn't want to give them straight-up Arcane Recovery, but I'm thinking my nerfed version isn't splashy enough compared to the Hordebreakers and Dread Ambushers of the world.

My recommendation would be to commit to a specific patron. Maybe even commit to a boon like blade. Fey would be keep a more consistant thematic with the ranger, devil would emphasize the multiclass aspect. I'd either grant eldritch blast altogether or forgoe it. It's a neat idea, but I feel the thematic is a bit all over the place, trying to fit in a bit of every warlock mechanics.

[RickAsWritten]

What I'd do is switch the Invocation with the 7th level feature that gives a Familiar. Even though it doesn't click into the warlock mechanical skeleton directly, Rangers already have a connection to animals, and they aren't huge spellcasters anyway.

What you could do is include the "you may give up an attack to have your familiar attack as a reaction" rider in the 7th level feature, alongside the invocation selection. That gives it a very Ranger-y feel by taking a (currently) Warlock-only mechanic.

On one hand, it makes sense to move the familiar earlier, and good point about it fitting the Ranger aesthetic, but then the subclass is getting a Pact Boon at the same level as a normal Warlock.

I'll definitely throw the attack replacement option in there, but I doubt it will get used much(although I guess the Pact of the Chain one doesn't get used too much either lol, but it's a nice option to have). How do the choices of slightly upgraded familiars look? I struggled to find good options, and currently the Flying Snake is probably the hands-down best option. I wanted to include a Flumph as a choice but was worried that that would be too strong.

My recommendation would be to commit to a specific patron. Maybe even commit to a boon like blade. Fey would be keep a more consistant thematic with the ranger, devil would emphasize the multiclass aspect. I'd either grant eldritch blast altogether or forgoe it. It's a neat idea, but I feel the thematic is a bit all over the place, trying to fit in a bit of every warlock mechanics.

I specifically avoided leaning too hard into one patron or another because the rules of the contest are to make a subclass out of a different base class. The Pact Boons are part of the base class though, so maybe I could add some of that modularity into there. Maybe give the choice between a familiar, a summonable weapon, or a couple Warlock cantrips. Hmm...

I wanted to avoid Eldritch Blast all together because then you could just make a Ranger with a two level dip in Warlock and have the same exact character. I gave them a pseudo-Eldritch Blast at 11th though. That's the level that most of the other Ranger subclasses get their version of a 3rd attack-like ability, so the Soulsworn gets it with that.

[Vogie]

I'll definitely throw the attack replacement option in there, but I doubt it will get used much(although I guess the Pact of the Chain one doesn't get used too much either lol, but it's a nice option to have). How do the choices of slightly upgraded familiars look? I struggled to find good options, and currently the Flying Snake is probably the hands-down best option. I wanted to include a Flumph as a choice but was worried that that would be too strong.

The reason that Chain doesn't use it much is because ONLY bladepact gets the extra attack feature, so by using that ability they would:
a) lose their entire action
b) reveal their invisible familiar

Since Rangers have an Extra attack baseline, and their familiars aren't invisible, that allows a unique coordinated-attack style playstyle that only the ranger has.

[RickAsWritten]

The reason that Chain doesn't use it much is because ONLY bladepact gets the extra attack feature, so by using that ability they would:
a) lose their entire action
b) reveal their invisible familiar

Since Rangers have an Extra attack baseline, and their familiars aren't invisible, that allows a unique coordinated-attack style playstyle that only the ranger has.

Mmm, good point. I hadn't thought of that. Sounds fun.

Question. I think the Otherworldly Recover should be changed because it feels rather meh. Which would be better:

Spoiler: Otherworldly Recover(as is)

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At 3rd level, the mysterious entity that you are beholden to grants you a boon to your spell casting. Once per day when you finish a short rest, you can choose expended spell slots to recover. The spell slots can have a combined level that is equal to or less than one third of your Ranger level (rounded down), and none of the slots can be 6th level or higher.

or

Spoiler: Otherworldly Recovery(altered)

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At 3rd level, the mysterious entity that you are beholden to grants you a boon to your spell casting. Whenever you finish a short rest, you can choose expended spell slots to recover. The spell slots can have a combined level that is equal to one half of your Proficiency Bonus (rounded up).

or keep it as is but round up.

Another option could be the altered version but it's based on Wisdom modifier. I quite like this option. It'll be between 2 and 5 levels and would allow a player that wanted to focus on casting to prioritize Wisdom and become a pretty decent spellcaster.

[Crisis21]

Mmm, good point. I hadn't thought of that. Sounds fun.

Question. I think the Otherworldly Recover should be changed because it feels rather meh. Which would be better:

Spoiler: Otherworldly Recover(as is)

Show

At 3rd level, the mysterious entity that you are beholden to grants you a boon to your spell casting. Once per day when you finish a short rest, you can choose expended spell slots to recover. The spell slots can have a combined level that is equal to or less than one third of your Ranger level (rounded down), and none of the slots can be 6th level or higher.

or

Spoiler: Otherworldly Recovery(altered)

Show

At 3rd level, the mysterious entity that you are beholden to grants you a boon to your spell casting. Whenever you finish a short rest, you can choose expended spell slots to recover. The spell slots can have a combined level that is equal to one half of your Proficiency Bonus (rounded up).

or keep it as is but round up.

Another option could be the altered version but it's based on Wisdom modifier. I quite like this option. It'll be between 2 and 5 levels and would allow a player that wanted to focus on casting to prioritize Wisdom and become a pretty decent spellcaster.

Well, the first problem I see is that Rangers don't get 6th level spell slots to begin with. As a half-caster class they cap at 5th level spell slots.

As for the options, I'd say the second, but let the combined level of the recovered spell slots equal their full proficiency bonus (up to 6 levels total).

[Vogie]

Alternatively, you could steal more directly from Pact magic, and have only a single highest level spell slot refresh on a short rest. That'd let the Ranger feel more caster-y, but not in the "well I'll get more bang for my buck with 3 1st level slots"

[Crisis21]

Question: How is the theme of each contest decided? Can we offer suggestions?

[Man_Over_Game]

Question: How is the theme of each contest decided? Can we offer suggestions?

We make a vote when we cast votes for the subclass. I think MoleMage has a list of possible ideas, and we just kinda vote on whatever we think is the coolest one. The last round was about Luck.

[Crisis21]

We make a vote when we cast votes for the subclass. I think MoleMage has a list of possible ideas, and we just kinda vote on whatever we think is the coolest one. The last round was about Luck.

And can we make suggestions? Because I'd like to suggest: Make A Choice (subclasses like the Totem Barbarian where you can select between different feature options at one or more tiers of the subclass)

[Amnoriath]

Just wondering what people thought of my Bone Knight and if I should port it over here or not.

[Crisis21]

Just wondering what people thought of my Bone Knight and if I should port it over here or not.

What do you mean 'port it over here'?

[MoleMage]

Any thoughts on the Ranger Soulsworn Archetype? It's got the focus and the feel down, but it's a little bit passive. I'm thinking that it actually might be a little underpowered, especially the 3rd level ability.
I didn't want to give them straight-up Arcane Recovery, but I'm thinking my nerfed version isn't splashy enough compared to the Hordebreakers and Dread Ambushers of the world.

Spoiler: Soulsworn feedback

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After the changes made based on previous feedback, I think this is overall in a pretty good place. A couple comments below.

• Earned Invocation: The spell level for invocations should be at least the minimum required level, to allow for upcasting (Warlocks automatically would upcast these).
• Invoked Attack is wordier than it needs to be, though it's functions are fine. Maybe something like: "You can make a ranged spell attack against a target within 60 feet of you using your spell attack modifier for ranger spells. On a hit, the target takes force damage equal to 1d10 plus your Wisdom modifier and is pushed back 5 feet. Creatures you have struck with a melee weapon attack this turn do not impose disadvantage on your attack rolls with this ability. At 17th level, you can fire two beams instead of one when you use this ability."
• Invoked Attack's clause about disadvantage feels pushed in to make melee viable; making distinct abilities at this tier for melee and for ranged Soulsworn (which you choose between similar to hunter ranger) would be more compelling.
• The spellsworn prerequisite table seems to be redundant with the class description which says that only those invocations mentioned in the subclass description are permitted. Is the intent to allow invocations from additional sources according to that table?

Question: How is the theme of each contest decided? Can we offer suggestions?

We make a vote when we cast votes for the subclass. I think MoleMage has a list of possible ideas, and we just kinda vote on whatever we think is the coolest one. The last round was about Luck.

And can we make suggestions? Because I'd like to suggest: Make A Choice (subclasses like the Totem Barbarian where you can select between different feature options at one or more tiers of the subclass)

The theme is decided by a vote on a subset of all suggested themes so far. The subset is determined in the following way: First, any runner(s)-up are added. Then, I use Google's random number generator to select enough themes to fill out the roster for voting from the list of suggested themes so far. I initially had said that I would do 3, or 5 if there were at least 10 entries, but I think I'll just do 5 regardless from now on.

Suggestions are tracked in a spoiler in the first post of this thread (the previous runner-up is underlined so we know where to find it). After I post this reply to various comments I'll add Make a Choice to the list as no equivalent theme is there under a different name as yet.

Just wondering what people thought of my Bone Knight and if I should port it over here or not.

Spoiler: Bone Knight Feedback

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The theme here is great. It really embraces both halves of the equation to make something whole and new whereas some of the themes (my own included) are more skewed to one side or the other.

• Class: Though the word fighter appears several times in the description, those uses come across as the generic "one who fights" rather than a class reference to me. Calling it a Martial Archetype somewhere would be enough to clarify it for me.
• Formatting: The class features could use more line breaks and/or whitespace in their descriptions.
• Bonecraft Armor does a lot of different things. Too many, in my opinion, for a 3rd-level feature (especially alongside pact magic). I would break up its benefits throughout the subclass, and recommend list formatting if a single level gives three or more benefits. The spell slot ability's immunities are too strong (especially immunity to stunned and paralyzed).
• Bonecraft Armor/Weapon: "If a creature were to steal this" could be interpreted as a creature intending to steal. "If a creature steals this object, they suffer [penalties] until they return it to the fighter."
• Why is your pact magic progression different from the donor classes? Existing spellcasting archetypes (Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster) follow the same progression as the base class, just slowed down to 1/3rd speed. It's odd that you get 2nd level spell slots before a 2nd pact magic spell slot.
• Two of your three spells are Paladin exclusive spells. I understand why you picked them (they promote the heavily armored death knight image), but I would trade Wrathful Smite for something from the Hadar line at least (the horse can stay).
• Undeath's Blessing: I don't like the ability to trade out ASIs.
• Bonecraft Legionnaire could probably just grant Animate Dead without a spell slot. Sample wording: "You know the spell Animate Dead and can cast it without consuming a spell slot. Undead creatures created through this feature treat their attacks as magical for purposes of overcoming resistance and immunity, and when you use your bonus action to issue a command to undead under your control, you can expend a spell slot to give them temporary hit points equal to 1d8 + the spell level of the slot consumed for up to 1 minute. While the temporary hit points last, they deal additional damage equal to 2 + the spell level of the slot consumed on their weapon attacks."
• Extra note on Bonecraft Legionnaire: Monstrous Humanoid was dropped as a type along with Magical Beast. Both got folded together into a single Monstrosity creature type.
• Bonecraft Weapon: Same formatting concerns as with Bonecraft Armor (it runs together in one big block). The bonus damage is too weak and the rider too strong for my taste. The spell slot triggered ability is also very strong given they get their spell slots back on a short rest.
• Undeath's General: It feels mostly underwhelming after the big feature that is Bonecraft Weapon. It should also specify how many hit points the undead is restored to when you use its reaction ability.

Overall, your theme is where it needs to be, but some of your features are a little bloated.

[KOLE]

Hey ya'll, I'm throwing my hat in the ring as homebrewing is something I'm more and more drawn to these days, and I'd like to hone that skill.

Inspiration from this literally came from rolling 2d12, one for the base class and one for the "Borrowing" class. 9 and 10 meant a Sorcerer inspire Roguish Archetype!

I'm excited about this but worried it might be on the strong side. I wanted a strong thematic connection without just slapping metamagic on an Arcane Trickster. I really wanted it to feel like a gritty, dirty, unrefined innate spellcaster.

I also dialed down cantrips and spells known from the EK/AT base design as I didn't feel a 1/3rd caster should know the same amount of spells as a full caster.

[RickAsWritten]

[SPOILER=Soulsworn feedback]
After the changes made based on previous feedback, I think this is overall in a pretty good place. A couple comments below.

• Earned Invocation: The spell level for invocations should be at least the minimum required level, to allow for upcasting (Warlocks automatically would upcast these).
• Invoked Attack is wordier than it needs to be, though it's functions are fine. Maybe something like: "You can make a ranged spell attack against a target within 60 feet of you using your spell attack modifier for ranger spells. On a hit, the target takes force damage equal to 1d10 plus your Wisdom modifier and is pushed back 5 feet. Creatures you have struck with a melee weapon attack this turn do not impose disadvantage on your attack rolls with this ability. At 17th level, you can fire two beams instead of one when you use this ability."
• Invoked Attack's clause about disadvantage feels pushed in to make melee viable; making distinct abilities at this tier for melee and for ranged Soulsworn (which you choose between similar to hunter ranger) would be more compelling.
• The spellsworn prerequisite table seems to be redundant with the class description which says that only those invocations mentioned in the subclass description are permitted. Is the intent to allow invocations from additional sources according to that table?

Good points all around, thanks.

Point-by-point:

• I'll add the upcast option.
• Haha, so I copy-pasted the wording directly from the Sunsoul Monk, and then realized that the Ranger would already have the spellcasting basic descriptions. Meant to revise it but forgot.
• Good idea. It was most definitely slapped-on. I'll have to think on that one.
• Partly yes, but also because it's kinda confusing if skimmed or quickly read. You can only change an Invocation when you get a new one, as opposed to Warlocks which can change on any level-up. One would assume that when a Soulsworn gets 3rd level spells that they could use the Invocations that include 3rd level spells, but they have to wait until they gain a new Invocation. I added the chart to help with clarity. Also, to give the little bonus tidbit that Hunter's Mark works with the Hex-based Invocations.

[DracoDei]

Considering entering this, but the class I would be Borrowing from would be one I am still in the very early stages of making, and may not wish to post within the time-frame of this contest. Would that be acceptable?

EDIT:
I have however made two different versions of said base class for 3.x/PF and have been playing it in an ongoing campaign. I'd link the 3.x/PF versions, but it they aren't so much walls of text as massive citadels of verbiage which the unwary should not venture into without a guide. The more canny should be able to find them if they look with wisdom.

Mostly a note to myself: It would probably either be a Clerical Domain (Martyr?), or a Druid Circle ("Circle of the Mother Bird/Mama Wolf"). Perhaps a Paladin Oath, or MAYBE a Bardic college.

Spoiler: Further scribblings

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Class level : Spell


1st: Compelled Duel, Guiding Bolt (Dropped Bless so as to distance this further from Life Domain... may need to change this back given the 1st level special ability regarding concentration.)
3rd: ?Status? (would need to write up), !Warding Bond! (Class feature that allows you to cast from higher level slot for more targets? Maybe also gives more HP, or heals hp when you cast it, but which are lost if you voluntarily cancel the spell?) (Dropped Aid to push them towards Warding Bond)
5th: Beacon of Hope, ?Helping Hand? (Would need to write up), OR ?Protection from Energy?
7th: Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, OR Locate Creature (probably best to give this as a special ability so it can work on allies only)
9th: ?Greater Restoration?, ?Raise Dead? (Class feature to put half the penalty on yourself? This would allow this to be extended to Resurrection), Telepathic Bond

1st: Advantage on Concentration checks on spells that target only your allies (so they CAN'T be targeting you). May need to include some language allowing you to exclude yourself from AoE effects, especially those centered on yourself.

2nd:
Channel Divinity use:
(Bonus Action?) Disadvantage Self on X saves (scaling?) / Advantage allies on same save within 20' (10'? 30'?) (or /+2 for cases where they would already have advantage). Give a choice, or just another alternate use to allow similar for to-hit rolls on you/allies?

OR

Spend spell slots like paladin when making opportunity attacks when not having used attack action etc on previous round for next hour... or just 1d4 per class level and don't involve spell slots? Get to pick energy type when you gain this feature?

AND/OR

Transfer one (more?) negative condition(s) (including all fatigue levels) from one (more?) allies onto yourself by touch?

6th: Give option passed up at level 2? Carry the Burden? Gift of Time?

8th: Very nerfed Shield of the Soul (limited duration? perhaps requires Channel Divinity to activate?)

?9th: Can take 1/2 of penalty for someone you return from the dead.

17th: Band of Blood Brothers (Requires 1 or 2 Channel Divinity?)? Defensive Foresight? Give choice between the two?

[MoleMage]

Considering entering this, but the class I would be Borrowing from would be one I am still in the very early stages of making, and may not wish to post within the time-frame of this contest. Would that be acceptable?

If you can provide a description or link to the portions of the class that are being Borrowed, it will be allowed.

EDIT: That said, it is preferred to provide a whole base class when using homebrew.

[DracoDei]

If you can provide a description or link to the portions of the class that are being Borrowed, it will be allowed.

EDIT: That said, it is preferred to provide a whole base class when using homebrew.

Well, the first 3.x/PF version is long since mechanically complete. The Mythos version had some basic language that I never could get quite right. The fluff, at least for the mythos version, is a messily written, mostly because I kept struggling with how to pound into the reader's head what they were all about sufficiently that they would stop bringing up things like the complexity and/or lack of offense/impressiveness.

Relevant themes:
-Debuff yourself to buff your allies.
-Opportunity Attacks (may or may not include this aspect).
-Outside of combat healing (Might not be doing anything with this, and if I do it might just be adding Prayer of Healing to the spell list... but there IS something I could throw in basically verbatim from the class.)

I'll summarize some of the abilities of the unpublished work-VERY-MUCH-in-progress (and yet playtested from levels ~3 to 11.) 5e version that I am considering drawing from:
-Warding Bond that provides no numerical bonuses, lasts only a single round, but is at-will*.

*Yes, I know that this is discouraged in 5e... my Domain will stay away from this much more than the class does/will do.

-Spend your action and reduce your movement to 0 for the round to grant 1 round of Haste to an ally.
-Lose your class bonus to AC (Cha. Mod.) to grant it to an ally, or, at higher levels, to grant it -2 to all allies in a radius.
-Lose proficiency with a certain number of saves (how many varies with level, note that the class is proficient with all saves*) to grant your proficiency bonus to all saves by allies within 10', and half that to allies from further than that, but within 30'.

*Daring, I know, and, again, not going to be putting this in the Domain. There I'll just use Disadvantage/Advantage.

-Since most of the classes casting is Bonus Action for 1 round effects, they don't need to worry about Concentration checks. If I use this theme, I would do it as Advantage on Concentration on spells that target your allies, but which you don't target yourself with (probably will need a clause about being able to choose when casting, say, Beacon of Hope to not gain its benefits yourself.
-Spend a short rest playing Florence Nightengale. You get no benefits from the rest, but Cha. Mod. allies get to roll each hit-die they spend twice, and add them together (including the Constitution modifier).
-Cha. Bonus extra reactions each round that can only be used for opportunity attacks (basically 3.x Combat Reflexes feat, but charisma based). +Cha. Mod. to-hit with opportunity attacks and +class level to damage (might be too much in most 5e games, but it seems to work in the one I am playing in, and the 3.x versions could go up to triple class level for damage.). Going to hew a lot closer to the 5e paladin smite (IE fueled with spell slots, and trying to take into account that Clerics have more slots than Paladins) for the Domain.
.
.
.
Between the links and the listings, is that a sufficient level of detail?


EDIT: I'm thinking of allowing dexterity to substitute for wisdom for Bolt of Resilient Guidance or whatever I called it, because the Archetype is looking a little M.A.D. You might end up with cleric builds that dumpstat all mental ability scores(with Wis>Cha>Int still), but... eh, why not?

[nickl_2000]

Spoiler: Self-Sacrifice Domain

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Here we go :)

Bastion of Defense - Skip the whole stuff about strength requirements and dwarf and all that stuff. It over complicates the ability when that is built into everything. Just give proficiency in Heavy Armor, the rest is resolved by other PhB rules.
-You are also proficient with Martial Reach weapons, but only when making an opportunity attack. - This seems unnessarily complicated, enough so that I often wouldn't bother having the reach weapon. Or if I did it would be a whip in one hand and something else in another
-However, these benefits come with a tiny drawback. You must always humbly remember that your best defense may not be sufficient. If you are not proficient in the Medicine skill, you must always prepare the Spare the Dying cantrip
This is a little off for 5e wording too. You don't actually prepare cantrips, you just get them and always have them ready to use. So, if you wanted to do this you say "you must choose spare the dying as one of your cantrips at level 1" and leave it at that.


Channel Divinity I honestly don't know what to do with these. The power is significant for both, but the downside sucks (at least for selfless sacrifice). Viscious Defense actually can be gotten around really, really easily. If I were to get Booming Blade, I can use that instead of an attack and still do significant damage easily, or just cast a cantrip every round. It's not all that hard to overcome this for what yu end up getting.

Carry the Burden: - Phew the wording on this is complicated. You can simply it massively.
Fly is considered a prepared spell and you cast it as one spell level higher than the slot used. However, you cannot cast it on yourself... Add the burden stuff in there.

Gift of Time: - Wow, another complicated ability here. Simplify it down. You may forgo your action, bonus action, and movement to allow an ally to gain and extra attack and extra movement on their next time. You can do this Wisdom Mod times per long rest.

Nexus of Brotherhood: - So this is pretty confusing too. You pick a total of 6 people, damage is shared between each person as evenly as possible, then any remainder goes 1 point to you, 1 point to the original target, 1 point to the highest HP, etc...

Honestly this feels pretty underpowered for a capstone. At least make is so that the remainder after dividing disappears. It would simplify it, make it so much easier on the brain, and add a little power to it.

[DracoDei]

Does anyone have any critique on the two original spells I created for this domain?

[EDIT]
Given the one round duration of Gift of Time, I'm thinking of making it "Proficiency modifier + Wisdom Modifier per long rest", instead of just Wis. Mod. as I changed it to at nickl_2000's suggestion. This is especially true since the other abilities of the domain cover all of the physical ability scores in terms of what they require to do well*. For this reason I think it would actually be good for them to be able to dump wisdom.
*Strength for Carry the Burden and damage/to-hit on OOs, Dexterity for Mob-Halting Reflexes, and Constitution for Tanking and the capstone. Admittedly there are arguments against these all being necessary in any one build.

Am I crazy or is this actually a good idea?

I could actually power it up further, while making wisdom both more AND less important (from various points of view), by making it "Wisdom SCORE rounds per long rest" and not bringing Proficiency Modifier into it. This is even more daring of course, but... MAYBE??? Maybe allow this as a power-up if you select it at both 6th AND 8th?
[/EDIT]

I'm thinking of allowing dexterity to substitute for wisdom for Bolt of Resilient Guidance because the Archetype is looking a little M.A.D. You might end up with cleric builds that dumpstat all mental ability scores(still with Wis>Cha>Int), but... eh, why not?

If everyone, rather than just nickl_2000 could look at the questions I ask him in my response to him, I would be grateful. I'll put them in slightly larger font and Fire Brick color to help with this.

nickl_2000, In general: Thank you, especially for your simplifications! Figuring out that sort of thing is always where I struggle the most, especially since I usually don't want to change the underlying dynamics, just how I explain them.
You succeeded even with that strict standard in almost all cases!

Bastion of Defense - Skip the whole stuff about strength requirements and dwarf and all that stuff. It over complicates the ability when that is built into everything. Just give proficiency in Heavy Armor, the rest is resolved by other PhB rules.

The idea is that you have to always be ready to rush to the aid of an ally in need, or close a gap in the defenses screening the more glass cannon characters. Thus anything that slows your movement is counter to the philosophy of the Domain.

This was the fluff justification for why Grace-Gifts were limited to light armor and no shield.

Should I still drop the restriction?

Spoiler: Further of information about how Grace-Gift inspired this.

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Most Grace-Gift spells have 1 round durations and very short ranges (less pronounced in 5e since ranges already tend to be shorter). This is to keep them near the front lines where they are actually in danger, rather than hanging back and buffing the front-liners.

To support this they do most of their casting as bonus actions (to enable Dash, among other things). In3.x/PF they also got the Tumble skill (closest thing in 5e is the Disengage action).

In 3.x/PF even medium armor slowed you.

So... with the ranges not being super-short for most clerical buffs, with the exception of Beacon of Hope and similar "aura" spells, this might not be as needed.

-You are also proficient with Martial Reach weapons, but only when making an opportunity attack. - This seems unnessarily complicated, enough so that I often wouldn't bother having the reach weapon. Or if I did it would be a whip in one hand and something else in another.

I would have been more sanguine about just flat-out granting proficiency if the damage on reach weapons were a little lower.

Also, I wanted to add a bit more emphasis to the "Don't use the Attack Action" thing.

It isn't like reach weapons are that expensive, and you should have a decent strength score with this Domain. So by level 2 or 3 you might as well carry around a reach weapon, even if you only switch to it when you KNOW you are going to be activating Vicious Defense in your next combat. And really, you are supposed to be a Buffer/Roadblock, not DPR (except via Roadblock). At low levels not being proficient is only -10% chance to hit, and at high levels the damage on your melee attack is probably too low to matter. Or am I missing something?

Should I go ahead and just give blanket proficiency?

<SNIP>
This is a little off for 5e wording too. You don't actually prepare cantrips, you just get them and always have them ready to use. So, if you wanted to do this you say "you must choose spare the dying as one of your cantrips at level 1" and leave it at that.

Yeah, my 3.x/PF experience mislead me. I'll fix it.

Channel Divinity I honestly don't know what to do with these. The power is significant for both, but the downside sucks (at least for selfless sacrifice). Vicious Defense actually can be gotten around really, really easily. If I were to get Booming Blade, I can use that instead of an attack and still do significant damage easily, or just cast a cantrip every round. It's not all that hard to overcome this for what you end up getting.

Should I jump this up to also disallowing spells that deal damage, or even also include spells that target enemies?

Carry the Burden: <SNIP>

Gift of Time: -<SNIP>

Thanks again for these simplifications!

Nexus of Brotherhood: - So this is pretty confusing too. You pick a total of 6 people, damage is shared between each person as evenly as possible, then any remainder goes 1 point to you, 1 point to the original target, 1 point to the highest HP, etc...

Honestly this feels pretty underpowered for a capstone. At least make is so that the remainder after dividing disappears. It would simplify it, make it so much easier on the brain, and add a little power to it.

Ah, I was worried about the power level. It basically means enemies can't focus their attacks and have to deal a LOT more damage before they endanger even the weakest member of the party*. I've had someone basically say (as a compliment) that this would be the part of the story where the villain shouts "What?! Impossible?! This can not be!" (and then the hero says something about The Power of Friendship).
*And if you strategically drop a Heal on said squishy with the right timing... in parties with less of a range of hit-point totals, you substitute Mass Cure Wounds.

That having been said, yeah, I will at least have that tiny bit of damage disappear, and I could go further if people think I should.

Ways it could be further powered up:

• It can transfer damage AWAY from you, rather than just TO you.
• Increase the duration to 10 minutes or 1 hour.
• Have it refresh on a Short Rest.
• Make it a Bonus action, or even a Reaction to activate.
• If I really needed to, I could have a "ghost teammate" such that you divide by X+1 rather than X, meaning more damage is lost entirely. Maybe require that it have Y targets before you get this bonus, since the fraction of the damage disappearing is larger the fewer targets you have.
• Perhaps strongest of all: If I made transfering the damage optional on the part of the original recipient of the damage each time then that would vastly increase the damage that would need to be dealt to the party before people started hitting 0.

Which one/combination of these options should I choose? For the moment I have gone with only the first one.

*Goes off to copy-paste in most of the simplifications.*
Done, although it wasn't always direct copy-paste. I also powered up the capstone by allowing it to move damage away from you, underlined the damage in Vicious Defense so people don't miss it by thinking it is "just like Smite except for OOs", and nerfed that same ability to not allow most offensive spells. Should I drop the clarifying sentence about "thorns" and "painful buffs" in the new Vicious Defense description?

For the duration of this ability you lose the ability to use the Attack action and to cast spells that deal damage, unless they target only your allies. This last clause would most commonly be a "thorns" effect, but if you have a spell that deals damage in exchange for a powerful buff then you could cast that.

[nickl_2000]

It isn't like reach weapons are that expensive, and you should have a decent strength score with this Domain. So by level 2 or 3 you might as well carry around a reach weapon, even if you only switch to it when you KNOW you are going to be activating Vicious Defense in your next combat. And really, you are supposed to be a Buffer/Roadblock, not DPR (except via Roadblock). At low levels not being proficient is only -10% chance to hit, and at high levels the damage on your melee attack is probably too low to matter. Or am I missing something?

Should I go ahead and just give blanket proficiency?


Should I jump this up to also disallowing spells that deal damage, or even also include spells that target enemies?

• It can transfer damage AWAY from you, rather than just TO you.
• Increase the duration to 10 minutes or 1 hour.
• Have it refresh on a Short Rest.
• Make it a Bonus action, or even a Reaction to activate.
• If I really needed to, I could have a "ghost teammate" such that you divide by X+1 rather than X, meaning more damage is lost entirely. Maybe require that it have Y targets before you get this bonus, since the fraction of the damage disappearing is larger the fewer targets you have.
• Perhaps strongest of all: If I made transfering the damage optional on the part of the original recipient of the damage each time then that would vastly increase the damage that would need to be dealt to the party before people started hitting 0.

Which one/combination of these options should I choose? For the moment I have gone with only the first one.

So you want them to be able to use reach weapons for the sake of more AoOs, but you don't want them to get the d10 damage dice? Simple give them whip at level 1 which is 1d4 and reach, it can be used with strength or dex. That should solve your issue. However, I don't see the issue with giving them 1d10 reach weapons since you have class features that are taking away their ability to attack and they need to forgo a shield to use them.


No you shouldn't include skipping spells that do damage, for the simple reason that its going to get really, really boring for the player who is using this ability if they can't do anything other than sit (or use the help action).


As for the level 17 ability, include everyone. You are sharing the pain between everyone, it should include you as well. In no way should you increase the ability. You channel divinities last way to long as it is, so don't make this go nuts either. Refreshing on a short rest would be fine in my mind. That would make it happen more often and be more useful of an ability.


The only other thing I noticed on a second reading. It is pretty standard for a Cleric Domain to at level 8 to do either
Potent Spellcasting
Starting at 8th level, you add your Wisdom modifier to the damage you deal with any cleric cantrip.

OR

Divine Strike
At 8th level, you gain the ability to infuse your weapon strikes with the fiery power of the forge. Once on each of your turns when you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can cause the attack to deal an extra 1d8 fire damage to the target. When you reach 14th level, the extra damage increases to 2d8.

Not including that is odd for a cleric subclass and will definitely turn some heads.

[DracoDei]

Spoiler: Spoilered for length, to compensate for the frequent posting I need as a late-comer with limited 5e homebrewing experience.

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So you want them to be able to use reach weapons for the sake of more AoOs, but you don't want them to get the d10 damage dice? Simple give them whip at level 1 which is 1d4 and reach, it can be used with strength or dex. That should solve your issue. However, I don't see the issue with giving them 1d10 reach weapons since you have class features that are taking away their ability to attack and they need to forgo a shield to use them.

Okay, you've convinced me to bow to 5e's simplicity, instead of going for the fine detail I prefer. Have to think about if I will delay the non-whip stuff, only give whips, or give everything with Reach without limitations.
EDIT: Giving everything for the moment... gotta let the newcomers to the Domain ease into the idea of NOT attacking.

No you shouldn't include skipping spells that do damage, for the simple reason that its going to get really, really boring for the player who is using this ability if they can't do anything other than sit (or use the help action).

The idea was to steer them towards buffs during that time.

Well, there is also casting healing/recovery spells, Dodge (Defensive subclass!), and Disengage and Dash to get to where you need to be to keep screening the back-liners. Granted, buffing might only get you through one round (maybe two if you fail a Concentration check despite Advantage)... maybe one more round if you don't already have Warding Bond active on someone.

Hmmm... maybe put a hit-point cost on casting such spells? Disadvantage on spell to-hits, and enemies get Advantage against spells that directly target them, or deal damage except if on your allies?

Or I could go with "the carrot, rather than the stick", and let them cast an offensive spell whose effect would get tagged onto their next OO that HITS, and maybe would allow no save (perhaps only against its hit-point damage)? MAYBE even in ADDITION to if they wanted to spend a second slot on adding radiant damage and such? In any case, any unexpended spell could "rebate" its spell slot when the Channel Divinity ends (including if you end it early). Maybe change it so that in addition to the current options, you can dismiss Vicious Defense as a Bonus Action, or even a Reaction (if you don't need it anymore, you probably have a Reaction to spare...).

Maybe say that if they would IMMEDIATELY deal damage are they nerfed/disallowed? That way you can do battlefield control stuff, which can fall under "defense", just like your reach/OOs.

EDIT: Removed the restriction on spells, at least for the moment.

Spoiler: Deleted text in case I decide to put it back, perhaps with modifications.

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and to cast spells that deal damage, unless they target only your allies. This last clause would most commonly be a "thorns" effect, but if you have a spell that deals damage in exchange for a powerful buff then you could cast that.

As for the level 17 ability, include everyone. You are sharing the pain between everyone, it should include you as well. In no way should you increase the ability.

Okay. I assume you are specifically referring to its duration?

Your channel divinities last way to long as it is,

Hmmm.... you may be right!

A flat 1 minute seems a bit low. I might have it cap at 10, or make it equal to proficiency bonus or something.

Probably went over-board due to the Grace-Gift doing almost all their spells at-will (balanced by debuffing themselves and HUGE lack of offense, and a bit by the short durations).

so don't make this go nuts either. Refreshing on a short rest would be fine in my mind. That would make it happen more often and be more useful of an ability.

Okay.
EDIT: Done!

The only other thing I noticed on a second reading. It is pretty standard for a Cleric Domain to at level 8 to do either
Potent Spellcasting
Starting at 8th level, you add your Wisdom modifier to the damage you deal with any cleric cantrip.

OR

Divine Strike
At 8th level, you gain the ability to infuse your weapon strikes with the fiery power of the forge. Once on each of your turns when you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can cause the attack to deal an extra 1d8 fire damage to the target. When you reach 14th level, the extra damage increases to 2d8.

Not including that is odd for a cleric subclass and will definitely turn some heads.

Well, I'm certainly not going to give them any incentive to attack either with spells or weapons outside of OOs, and they already have all the bonuses they need for to-hit and damage on those!

Actually, never mind. I can totally put in those d8s as Radiant damage that applies to as many OOs as you hit with in a round, rather than just one like Divine Strike normally does. If I put that option first on the list then the comfort of the familiar will keep the eyebrows of objectors from rising too high, while keeping the eyebrows of people who like to see things mixed up appropriately elevated.
Yeah, going to do did that!

Maybe give a fifth option that lets them not take damage when spending a spell slot for radiant damage on Vicious Defense? Perhaps even let them heal for some small amount* each time they damage an enemy with an spell-slot-powered up Vicious Defense. Grace-Gift DID have a feat called Protector's Reward that let them heal for 1/4 the damage they inflicted with their defensive strikes. I could even reuse that as the name of the option. In the footnote I mentioned the Life Domain. Should copy another concept from that (its Channel Divinity: Preserve Life) and limit it to healing them to 1/2 their maximum?
*Proficiency bonus? 2*slot level? Or take it from the Life Domain and go with 2+slot level?
EDIT: Did this with 2+Slot level and the 1/2 max limitation.

Speaking of Vicious Defense, I assume that putting in a spoilered optional rule that lets you select the damage type that it deals, rather than every character dealing Radiant damage would NOT my chances in the voting? I am thinking some of the choices would only be available to certain alignments.
Good -> Radiant
Evil -> Necrotic
Law -> Cold*
Chaos-> Thunder
*Replacing the random swirling of water with the stability of ice... I can expound on this theme more if people don't quite get it.

The vengeful nature of Fire, the agonizing rebuke of Acid, and the divine judgement of Lightning would be available to all. If 5e's thematics* argue against limiting Radiant to Good, then either Lightning or Fire could be swapped for Radiant.
*Rather than merely it's precedents, although separating the two might be difficult.
EDIT: I've put this in, at least for now.

[KOLE]

Quick note, I've updated the Mageblood.

It can now use its Silent Incantations feature Cha modifier times per long rest, as opposed to once a short/long rest. I've renamed the 9th level feature to Quickening Pulse and limited it to once a short/long rest, so a slight bump to one and a slight nerf to the other, balancing things out a bit.

I've updated the wording on Arcane Nemesis, hopefully clearing it up a bit and making it a bit more intuitive. I also gave it a fun little additional ability: one bullet point of the Skulker feat, except for ranged spell attacks.

I have also balanced Magical Evisceration a bit. Rather than being a guaranteed damage boost on a hit once per long rest, you now have to gamble by declaring the damage before the roll. I also cleaned up the wording and specified intent; rather than the unhelpful blanket statement about "Abiding by all other sneak attack rules". Now its a distinct thing that only references the damage, insuring it scales to 20 without any weirdness.

I'm a little skeptical of this change. I'm afraid I'm balancing a powerful ability by making it potentially annoying to use, but it feels right a Rogue subclass to have that "All-or-nothing" feel to it, and it's potent enough that I wanted a little extra limitation on it beyond "Once per long rest". The wording is a little clearer now to make sure it only applies to one target; so no one tried to get cute by upcasting Scorching Ray and trying to add sneak attack to multiple targets.

It's good; but most rogue subclasses get stupid good capstones. Scouts get a chance to get sneak attack off twice in one turn. This is a chance to tack on extra damage to a single target of a spell. What do you all think?

[Ivellius]

I'm going to have basically no time to polish this at all (it's been end-of-semester busy for me the past few weeks), so let me put this query to the thread: if you have a Sorcerer borrowing what amounts to Cunning Action and Action Surge, what do you think is the best thematic / heritage? Quickling, maybe?

[theVoidWatches]

Yeah, I could see that. Or just a general time-magic type thing - sorcerers don't need a specific kind of creature to descend from, after all.

Spitballing here, their higher level features could give bonuses with Slow/Haster, and a capstone could guarantee them max turns with time stop, or maybe let them cast spells on others twice before the spell ends?

Or maybe I should let you build your subclass. Sorry.

[sengmeng]

Last minute entry: Path of the Spirit Vessel, a barbarian archetype employing pact magic. It's styled after the warlock, but the otherworldly patron is just "spirits."

If it's too late for feedback, I understand. I did this to myself.

[DracoDei]

Reviews will follow, but first I want to mention a few changes to my entry and that while nickl_2000 was very kind to review my entry, a second (and third?) point of view would be nice.

I've continued to tweak things. Most importantly I added the following as an option at 6th class level (and thus also at 8th):

Spoiler: Take My Eyes, That You Might See. Take My Ears, That You Might Hear.

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[*]Take My Eyes, That You Might See. Take My Ears That You Might Hear:
This ability has two major options, each with sub-options. All target a single creature within 30', have a duration of Concentration, unless otherwise specified the maximum duration is 8 hours. The effect also ends if you and the target are ever separated by more than 30', or if the sense you give up* is restored to you. They also fail to manifest in the first place if you have immunity to the condition(s) that specific application would inflict on you.
*This includes if you gain blindsense while concentrating on the Eyes option.
Eyes: You go blind and have any blindsight you possess suppressed for the duration of this ability. Pick one of the following for the target:

• They can see as normal for their species for the duration of this ability, even if born blind. If they are from a species with no sense of sight they gain the visual abilities of a human. Any pre-existing blindness effect is suppressed (but not removed) and they are immune to being blinded for the duration.
• They has advantage on sight-based perception checks.
• See Invisibility. This has a maximum duration of 1 hour.
• Darkvision out to a range of 60 feet.
• They gain low-light vision as an elf.
• (You must have a cleric level of at least 13 to select this option.) True Seeing. This requires the normal material component, which is destroyed, but you can simply hold it, rather than having to apply it to the target. This has a maximum duration of 1 hour.

Ears: You go deaf for the duration of this ability. Pick one of the following:

• They can hear for the duration of this ability, even if born deaf or from a species with no sense of hearing. Any pre-existing deafness effect is suppressed (but not removed) and they are immune to being deafened for the duration.
• They have advantage on hearing-based perception checks.
• Whenever they have both expertise and advantage of on hearing-based perception checks, they also gain Blindsense 5'. This has a maximum duration of 1 hour.

Once you have used any of these options you may not use this ability again until you have finished a long rest.

I'm still thinking about putting some sort of nerf on using offensive spells while under the effects of Vicious Defense. Maybe disallow spells that involve an attack roll, except for Bolt of Resilient Guidance?


Critique, working in REVERSE order (and skipping my own entry) so as to critique the stuff that has probably gotten the least review. Don't know how far I will get. Might do more in another post, or edited in to this one.

Spoiler: Path of the Spirit Vessel

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I assume you regain your spell slots on a short rest? You don't seem to specify anywhere.

You give the sorcerer progression of spells known. Given that the other columns top out at about what a warlock would get at 7th level, I would think that... actually never mind. Sorcerers seem to have the same "Spells Known" progression as warlocks, and that is what I would say the arcane trickster and eldritch knight are closest to being 1/3 casters OF.

To a few, the rage becomes too much to control, and they can regain their sanity by appealing to the shaman and his mysterious allies.

-Consider adding "only" before "regain", or otherwise editing to make this sound less casual at the end. Right now it has this weird vibe of: Oh, yeah, I'm going insane, but it is totally no big deal, really....

Spells Known of 1st-Level and Higher:

Given that Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight have to take most of their spells known from certain schools, I think you might want a similar limitation here. Perhaps simply say that only damaging and enemy-targeting spells can be cast in Rage, and then throw in some requirements to keep someone from hitting that level without having any such spells known? Probably want to add extra language to exclude stuff like Friends and Charm Person, although, say, Crown of Madness could fit, so you don't want to just go with "No Enchantments for that portion of your spells known".

Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the warlock spells you know with another spell of your choice from the warlock spell list. The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

This last sentence sounds like it was taken from any spontaneous caster OTHER than a warlock, since they don't have spell slots of various levels, they just have a bunch at ONE spell level at any given class level. Try something like "The new spell must be of a level you can cast." or, if the multi-classing rules don't stop this from working smoothly, perhaps more akin to: "The new spell must be equal or lower in level than your spirit vessel slot level.".

You perform an hour long ritual which can be accomplished during a short rest, during which the weapon must be within your reach.

Do you also gain the usual benefits of that short rest, or are you just pointing out that the times line up nicely?

Is ritual casting of spells NORMALLY considered restful enough you can still roll hit dice to regain hitpoints and such? I don't happen to know.

If it is on the same plane of existence, you can summon that weapon to your hand as a bonus action, causing it to teleport instantly to your hand.

This is pretty nasty for getting weapons into the King's Court and other places you wouldn't normally be able to take one (at least without raising eyebrows).

Are you planning on adding a 14th level ability, or do you feel that balance is best served by not having one?
In the second case a paranethetical note in the same font as your ability title explaining that might be wise.

At 10th level, when you go into a rage and have no spell slots, you gain one spell slot.

Recovering 1/2 your spell slots seems like a pretty big deal. I know there are precedents for "If you are out of this resource, recover it when X" (Monk's Ki points for one), but it still could be... more powerful than expected. I guess it depends on how much of the power comes from the spells, and how much from the invocations. It would also be a lot weaker if you only normally recover your slots on a Long Rest, which would make this probably the main way you would recover the slots (and warlocks get them back on a Short Rest, so that ought to be fine?). Again, I don't know 5e well enough to say "This is/isn't a problem." with any sense of confidence, only to raise questions that might be worth thinking about.

((Skipping over my Self-Sacrifice Domain.))

Spoiler: Mageblood

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Overall it isn't BAD, but it seems a little lacking in creativity given its similarity to Arcane Trickster. Probably unavoidable given the nature of being a 1/3 caster option for a rogue, but I still am less likely to vote for this than I might have been if you had picked a different pair of classes to work with.

Quickening Pulse is an interesting meeting place between metamagic and Cunning Action.

Arcane Nemesis: Being revealed if you HIT with a spell, but not if you MISS, seems like an odd distinction to make. Is there some sort of precedent I don't know about? I would also break the last sentence of this out into its own paragraph for clarity.

Does the capstone not work with, say, Magic Missile even if you target them all at a single target? Since you didn't HAVE to target that way. What if it is cast from a 1st level slot, but you hand a higher level one available (which would have given you more than one missile)? I realize that you don't want to give Sneak Attack more than once a spell*, but just saying you have to select one individual attack for it to apply to before you resolve any of them would seem sufficient to me.

*Although you could get two a round if you used Quickened Pulse? Not familiar enough with 5e to say for sure.)

While I was setting up spoilers for reviews I didn't happen to make at this time (but, again, might in an edit or separate post), I happened to notice things about two classes. Posting them, because "Why not?" even if it is out of the reverse order I am mostly going to be going in.
Soulsworn Archetype: I would recommend a larger font for the line with the name on it.

The Skald: Before the deadline you will want to remove the "Insert cool quote here!" bit, one way or another.

[KOLE]

Overall it isn't BAD, but it seems a little lacking in creativity given its similarity to Arcane Trickster. Probably unavoidable given the nature of being a 1/3 caster option for a rogue, but I still am less likely to vote for this than I might have been if you had picked a different pair of classes to work with.

Fair enough! You have to be very careful with 1/3rd casters. They don't feel like they get much, but having full martial progression can quickly get out of hand if you slap too many good magic goodies on top. I tried to keep this restrained.

Arcane Nemesis: Being revealed if you HIT with a spell, but not if you MISS, seems like an odd distinction to make. Is there some sort of precedent I don't know about? I would also break the last sentence of this out into its own paragraph for clarity.

Yes! When a Rogue is hidden from a creature and then makes an attack on them, normally they are always revealed, hit or miss. The Skulker Feat, which is niche and rarely utilized, gives Rogues and Rangers a few niche goodies, including not being revealed by missing with a ranged attack. I thought it was a nice little ability to add without swaying balance too far one way or the other. Also, agreed on the last comment. The feature itself is a little messy. I'm planning on tweaking it to make it a little more clear.

Does the capstone not work with, say, Magic Missile even if you target them all at a single target?

By RAW, Magic Missile doesn't qualify. There's been some debate about Magic Missile that has been resolved by Sage Advice. It doesn't involve an attack roll therefore it isn't an attack. It's odd, certainly, but it's already plenty powerful by being an instant hit therefore I don't think it should be buffed any.

I realize that you don't want to give Sneak Attack more than once a spell*, but just saying you have to select one individual attack for it to apply to before you resolve any of them would seem sufficient to me.

This is a good point, I think I'll edit it to make it clearer.

*Although you could get two a round if you used Quickened Pulse? Not familiar enough with 5e to say for sure.)

Theoretically, if one could use Magical Evisceration multiple times, this would be correct. However, since its only once a long rest, and specifies it only effects one target, it cannot be used multiple times in a round, even if a Bloodmage theoretically had a way to cast two leveled spells a round. The wording keeps this feature from being used on a cantrip, and nobody can cast multiple leveled spells a turn unless they're using action surge.

[SleeplessWriter]

I just updated Hedge Wizard with a 14th level feature that's sort of borrowing off of the Oath of the Ancients' channel divinity, just tweaked a few things around to make it fit better mechanically with the Hedge Wizard's intended playstyle. I also gave Herbalist's Magic a slight boost by giving them two sorcery points. It's already limited enough by the conversion rate, this just makes it immediately usable without going crazy, and it doesn't scale so it'll stay in line too.

Haven't been able to really do much for the last few weeks because of finals, so I wouldn't be opposed to an extension, anyone else willing.

[Ivellius]

Haven't been able to really do much for the last few weeks because of finals, so I wouldn't be opposed to an extension, anyone else willing.

Same, though I think the only thing I'd tweak is sorcery point costs to what I just posted. It feels about right to me, but I'm open to feedback.

(If we don't get an extension, I'm perfectly fine with that.)