Mage Killer build

[Kaelik]

Forsight is a limited effect divination spell. The spell itself is targeted at you, but it searches for any intention to harm the target of the spell, thus literally speaking, the target of the divination is anyone that attacks the wizard with the intention to harm him. Or at least that's my interpretation of it.

So the "Target:" reading of Foresight says "Universe"? Really?

[kemmotar]

Well...if you could see the effect of it in such a way,but the target of the spell is you. For example, if an epic spellcasters decided to somehow smite you with an amazing spell from 3 planes away forsight would still work...thus its effect does encompass anyone that harbors an intent to harm you and attacks you. There is nothing to preclude that it won't work against inter-plane attacks...thus it does encompass the whole universe yes...

And no the target reading for forsight is you...i did mention it in my previous post.

[quote]The spell itself is targeted at you[/unquote]

I did not talk about where the spell is targeted but to whom the effect of the spell is targeted, that is anyone attacking you.

[Woot Spitum]

Forsight is a limited effect divination spell. The spell itself is targeted at you, but it searches for any intention to harm the target of the spell, thus literally speaking, the target of the divination is anyone that attacks the wizard with the intention to harm him. Or at least that's my interpretation of it.

I feel that's a bit of a stretch, that Mind Blank not only blocks divinations targeted at you, but also divinations on anything that your actions might effect. If it explicitly stated this in the spell description, I'd call it an effective counter, but if it requires a DM judgement call, I'm afraid I'm going to have to call it a house rule (a sensible house rule that addresses a serious game balance issue, but a house rule nonetheless).

[kemmotar]

Then if mindblank doesn't provide a way around forsight is it the ultimate spell that has no counter? I'd say that in order to maintain game balance there has to be a counter to it or else any level 17 wizard can pretty much defeat any rogue/assassin or any class anyway that relies on its prey being flatfooted...

[Woot Spitum]

Then if mindblank doesn't provide a way around forsight is it the ultimate spell that has no counter? I'd say that in order to maintain game balance there has to be a counter to it or else any level 17 wizard can pretty much defeat any rogue/assassin or any class anyway that relies on its prey being flatfooted...

I'm don't disagree that Foresight is broken, I'm just saying that there's a difference between what the rules are and what the rules should be. House rules are our friends. House rules allow us to deal with problems like this. But when discussing the rules as written, house rules are irrelevant. If the rule/ability/class wasn't broken, there wouldn't be any need to fix it.

[Kaelik]

Then if mindblank doesn't provide a way around forsight is it the ultimate spell that has no counter? I'd say that in order to maintain game balance there has to be a counter to it or else any level 17 wizard can pretty much defeat any rogue/assassin or any class anyway that relies on its prey being flatfooted...

The whole point of the spell is to never be caught flat-footed. Yes, like all no-save 9th level spells it has no counter. Except smart ones. You don't rely on catching people flat-footed, you rely on them not having dex to AC. Or flanking. All you have to do is impair them somehow, such as tying them up, or flank.

[kemmotar]

well...if there is a counter then nobody's found it..and there should be one...if the interpretation of the rules is what we make it to be in the case of foresight, then a counter doesn't exist...a 9th level spell without xp or material costs can't the ultimate "i will never be surprised spell"...it's just too broken imo..there has to be a counter and in my mind it should be mindblank...
the forcage+clopudkill combo that is supposedly instant death has one too many counters and most of them very easily acquired...and its a total of two spells...
foresight is a buff that lasts 4 hours at level 20, has no draback, has no cost except one spell slot...it is not expended when it actually predicts the attack and its application is virtually limitless...

and good luck with trying to tie up or flank a wizard...the very least he can do is gr. dimension door...

[Kaelik]

well...if there is a counter then nobody's found it..and there should be one...if the interpretation of the rules is what we make it to be in the case of foresight, then a counter doesn't exist...a 9th level spell without xp or material costs can't the ultimate "i will never be surprised spell"...it's just too broken imo..there has to be a counter and in my mind it should be mindblank...

Think about what you are saying here though, it's ninth level spell slot, that's a huge price to pay. And not being surprised isn't very powerful. So you never have Surprise rounds, so you are never flat-footed. All that negates is Sneak Attack, and let you cast a few piddly immediate action spells.

High level Wizards have about a hundred ways to be immune to Sneak Attack, including a seventh level spell with a Duration of hours per level. If I was playing in a game without Celerity (I've played in a few) I wouldn't even have Foresight up.

[JaxGaret]

I disagree, of course they are the rules, the RAW since they are included in the DMG and the SRD explaining exactly how they apply to the item crafting feats.

This is absolutely wrong.

I suspected as much before, and now my suspicions have been confirmed - if you believe that the magic item creation guidelines are RAW rules, then you aren't as knowledgeable about D&D and how it is actually played as you make yourself out to be.

Please tone down your rhetoric.

Here is what the SRD says on the matter:

Not all items adhere to these formulas directly. The reasons for this are several. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.

[kemmotar]

i see what you mean...however you can't judge a spell just by what it does give...i also assume the spell you're talking about is elemental body...ofc there are ways to go around sneak attack like being undead or an elemental...and yet a piddle 12.000 gp item can go around that...deathstrike bracers. However, i have found nothing (nor do i think anyone else has) to counter foresight this is exactly what makes it so powerful. And an immediate action isn't all that piddly as you say...there are a lot of ways to abuse immediate actions. One of them is wings of cover which makes you immune to one attack...thus an arrow that would've been a fatal death attack with a sky high fort save is not only negated through foresight (with no way of going around it) but you also get an immediate action, for example wings of cover and you don't even need to worry about a gargantuan arrow coming you way...

There are a lot of ways to use a single immediate action to get out of harm's way...i'm sure and one looking for some will certainly find many...was it the abjurant champion that can cast any abjuration spell as an immediate action? Or was it just shield and mage armor...anyway...lots of ways

The thing with foresight is not that it only negates surprise rounds, being flatfooted etc, but that it completely neutralizes a class that is based on hiding and catching you off guard without any way around it. It neutralizes among other things rogues, ninjas(i know its a bad example but...), a load of PrCs most of which are quite good actually...

With a rod of extend you can use one 9th level spell slot( and you can have 6 at level 20 with 36 intelligence and a gazillion scrolls which you can make yourself) and with a rod of extend have an 8 hour buff that doesn't go away, cannot be countered in any way and completely neutralizes a base class and a hell of a lot of PrCs...it's not about making them less effective as with being an elemental or undead since that can be used against you with a death attack combined with deathstrike bracers. Fort save is the bad save for wizards and (for example) undead have no con score...Thus the lich goes bye bye in one shot with its measly +6 fort and +6 cloak of resistance...against the 28 fort DC of the assassin's death attack...which you can only beat by getting a 20...

The whole point of a would be mage killer rogue like character is that he can hide so he can use it to his advantage. If by casting one single spell all the tactic is useless then what's the point of picking up anything that hides and attacks when the enemy can have a permanent foresight item...sure the cost is prohibitive(459k to be exact) but anyone that has gone from level one to level 20 in a campaign...or even from level 10 has in his possession more than one item worth that much...the DMG guidelines seriously grade down the equipment you can have by creating a level 20 PC then from taking him for 1 to 20..

I would think, that since all other spells have a way of going around them, then foresight cannot be the exception. Besides, a straight one on one fight with a wizard is the worst thing you can do and spells death with large bloody letters..the only thing you can do is rely on subterfuge and stealth...If that can be gotten around to so easilly then nothing remains than resign to saying batman kills all the gods, takes over their portofolios and rules all of creation and takes a vacation in the farplane to kill thoon for the fun of it...and maybe kill cthulhu when he gets bored again...

I wouldn't like to think that despite all the imbalances wotc meant the wizard to be the do-all-be-all magnificent agent of destruction...he can be cheesed out so that you can smell him a thousand feet away...but that can again surely has a way of going around it with a proper build and tactic(in a theoretical discussion where you try to make a build to match and kill the other build)...there always is a way...thus there should be one with foresight.

I agree that its not that powerful a spell, but i have to admit that it's pretty unfair...I mean if you have foresight up, even if you don't have see invisibility not only do you not lose your dexterity but you get an extra +2 AC...and you get that for all attacks and spells that are used against you while the spell lasts..so the spell doesn't go away, you can't rehide and ambush him again a few rounds later(perfectly doable by taking the sniping action in the hide skill description by taking a -20...and a level 20 character with hide wouldn't be very troubled by a -20 to beat the wizard's spot dc...)

Its one of the best defence spells around if it absolutely has no counter...

[Armads]

The item creation rules are not utterly ridiculous just because you don't like them. The FRCS gate/portal prorating rules are nice since while you can make items of eternity as you cited no magic item can be costed under less than 1/10 days usage. Still takes an action to get the item and sometimes having to many choices or options is as bad as not having any trying to figure out the best strategy.

With the current item creation rules, you can get a +5 weapon (using the -40% cost tricks), for:
50k (base) divided by 2 (crafting) x 60% = 15 000 gp and 2k (or less) xp + masterwork cost + base weapon cost (all of which could be reduced by normal, mundane crafting). That's ridiculously cheap, isn't it? It's normally supposed to cost 50k, but you just saved 35k from crafting it. If you pay the wizard's xp cost off at the suggested rate of 5 gp/xp, that's 25k for a +5 weapon. That's half the price of the item you're normally getting. You can inflate your WBL by 40% just by custom-crafting everything you want to get.

What's "prorating"? Even if it's a typo, I can't figure out what it was supposed to mean. Please cite the rule where no magic item can be costed under less than 1/10 days usage.

[Kaelik]

Fort save is the bad save for wizards and (for example) undead have no con score...Thus the lich goes bye bye in one shot with its measly +6 fort and +6 cloak of resistance...against the 28 fort DC of the assassin's death attack...which you can only beat by getting a 20...

Except Undead are immune to anything that requires a Fort Save and doesn't specifically target objects. So you can Death Attack all day and undead just laugh.

[CASTLEMIKE]

This is absolutely wrong.

I suspected as much before, and now my suspicions have been confirmed - if you believe that the magic item creation guidelines are RAW rules, then you aren't as knowledgeable about D&D and how it is actually played as you make yourself out to be.

Please tone down your rhetoric.

Here is what the SRD says on the matter:

Originally Posted by SRD
Not all items adhere to these formulas directly. The reasons for this are several. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.

---------------------------------------------------------------

I don't believe I know magic item creation rules are RAW, just like I know a DM can choose to ignore, limit or modify RAW as desired for his game under Rule Zero. I disagree with your RAW interpretation standard because it is far to selective and limiting, the Item creation rules are still RAW, they are a part of the core rules and SRD, they set the standard and are the foundation for all magic items in the game, just because some items will not adhere directly to the formulas in a game doesn't discount those rules they are actually one of the rules of the game by RAW, each game will have their own standards, things like No Candles of Invocation, Wish Rings, Luck Blades, Limited Wish, Miracle or Wish Scrolls which all permitted by RAW and suggested wealth by level, like all things in the game the DM makes the final decision what he allows in his or her game but completely disallowing them in a game is really using Rule Zero and DM fiat.

The Anti Magic Torc from FRCS Underdark is a good example, cast a Anti Magic spell 1/Day for 25,000 GP market using the core Craft Wondrous Item feat and Anti magic spell, most wizard players seem to think that is to cheap for what it does, all the source book is doing is establishing the accepted Cost mechanic for the item to utility in game, a DM can still disallow the item in his game or adjust the cost mechanics, by RAW item creation rules a player can confer with his DM regarding any magic item that could be created using the core rules.

Armad what I posted and you quoted was:

The item creation rules are not utterly ridiculous just because you don't like them. The FRCS gate/portal prorating rules are nice since while you can make items of eternity as you cited no magic item can be costed under less than 1/10 days usage. Still takes an action to get the item and sometimes having to many choices or options is as bad as not having any trying to figure out the best strategy.

Perhaps "Limited-use" is a better word, FRCS page 61 under building a portal, sure PCs can increase their suggested wealth by level using this method, the biggest benefit would be to a similarly aligned party if PCs ever share their items in game.

Regarding item creation discounts mechanics, yes they increase suggested PC wealth by level. I like it because it is a RAW trick any PC crafter can use to party advantage unless overruled by your DM.

[Dode]

The custom magic item table also allows a continuous-effect True Strike enchantment for 2000gp. And no sane DM would allow that.

[JaxGaret]

I don't believe I know magic item creation rules are RAW, just like I know a DM can choose to ignore, limit or modify RAW as desired for his game under Rule Zero. I disagree with your RAW interpretation standard because it is far to selective and limiting, the Item creation rules are still RAW, they are a part of the core rules and SRD, they set the standard and are the foundation for all magic items in the game, just because some items will not adhere directly to the formulas in a game doesn't discount those rules they are actually one of the rules of the game by RAW, each game will have their own standards, things like No Candles of Invocation, Wish Rings, Luck Blades, Limited Wish, Miracle or Wish Scrolls which all permitted by RAW and suggested wealth by level, like all things in the game the DM makes the final decision what he allows in his or her game but completely disallowing them in a game is really using Rule Zero and DM fiat.

The Anti Magic Torc from FRCS Underdark is a good example, cast a Anti Magic spell 1/Day for 25,000 GP market using the core Craft Wondrous Item feat and Anti magic spell, most wizard players seem to think that is to cheap for what it does, all the source book is doing is establishing the accepted Cost mechanic for the item to utility in game, a DM can still disallow the item in his game or adjust the cost mechanics, by RAW item creation rules a player can confer with his DM regarding any magic item that could be created using the core rules.

You can't simply create custom magic items by following the magic item creation guidelines and claim them as RAW-approved items that should be allowed in every campaign.

Think of it this way: custom magic items are not campaign-allowable until DM-approved - instead of your view, which is that any custom magic items that follow the magic item creation guidelines are allowed until the DM disapproves of them.

It just doesn't work like that. DM must approve the item, period.

[CASTLEMIKE]

You can't simply create custom magic items by following the magic item creation guidelines and claim them as RAW-approved items that should be allowed in every campaign.

It just doesn't work that way.

No it doesn't, but it does work the way I posted it: Under RAW there are magic item creation rules, these RAW rules permit a players who wants a specific item using core crafting feats and core spells to confer with his DM regarding using the item in his game and at what cost by RAW.

The DM can always say No but most DMs are reasonable, if a player requests to introduce a specific magic item in a game UTILIZING the RAW Magic Item Creation rules as part of his suggested wealth by level, the majority of DMs will grant the player the courtesy of considering his request and the impact of the item on "their" game and IMO most DMs will allow it in some form if it adheres to the item creation rules unless it is to unbalancing for their game or campaign.

IMO most DMS who wouldn't allow a PC to acquire a sack full of Candle of Invocations will allow the same PC to use a magic item or two designed using the magic item creation rules unless it is to unbalancing for their game or campaign.

[CASTLEMIKE]

You can't simply create custom magic items by following the magic item creation guidelines and claim them as RAW-approved items that should be allowed in every campaign.

Think of it this way: custom magic items are not campaign-allowable until DM-approved - instead of your view, which is that any custom magic items that follow the magic item creation guidelines are allowed until the DM disapproves of them.

It just doesn't work like that. DM must approve the item, period.

Think of it this way: Candles of Invocation, Planar Ally Spell scrolls, the various Limited Wish, Miracle and Wish magic items, all exist under RAW but still require the same DM approval just like the magic item creation rules.

Yes it does work like that. The DM must approve everything your PC has in his game, period.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Except Undead are immune to anything that requires a Fort Save and doesn't specifically target objects. So you can Death Attack all day and undead just laugh.

Unless the PCs are in a game where Mind Blank doesn't protect you from Foresight while protecting a being from the Divine Sensing ability of a God or Power there is always the Commune spell option to get a basic ideal of what the party will be dealing with in game.

[Kaelik]

Unless the PCs are in a game where Mind Blank doesn't protect you from Foresight while protecting a being from the Divine Sensing ability of a God or Power there is always the Commune spell option to get a basic ideal of what the party will be dealing with in game.

I um, what?? You do realize that has absolutely nothing to do with what you quoted right? Are you reading different words then I am?

[CASTLEMIKE]

I um, what?? You do realize that has absolutely nothing to do with what you quoted right? Are you reading different words then I am?

An honest mistake, it made me smile when your wizard which has been using level 9 spells throughout this thread had suddenly become an undead lich with a +4 LA template for the arguement with kemmotar when he was being Sneak Attacked. I was simply quoting your response as I'd missed your post where you were casting the Shapechange spell in the thread. So is the wizard a lich because of the Lich template or the Shapechange spell?

The Commune post was just so the PCs would be able to get a basic handle on what they are dealing with.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm

Just a copy and paste from post #132
Originally Posted by kemmotar
Fort save is the bad save for wizards and (for example) undead have no con score...Thus the lich goes bye bye in one shot with its measly +6 fort and +6 cloak of resistance...against the 28 fort DC of the assassin's death attack...which you can only beat by getting a 20...

Except Undead are immune to anything that requires a Fort Save and doesn't specifically target objects. So you can Death Attack all day and undead just laugh.

[Dode]

Kaelik never said anything about a lich template. Just casting an hours-duration spell that gives a Wizard effective Undead type, which includes immunity to sneak-attack.

Edit: Ninja'd

[CASTLEMIKE]

Kaelik never said anything about a lich template. Just casting an hours-duration spell that gives a Wizard effective Undead type, which includes immunity to sneak-attack.

Edit: Ninja'd

My understanding is Kaelik is restricing himself to core spells for this thread. In Post #132 Kaelik quotes kemmotar thinking he is fighting a lich wizard so why didn't Kaelik correct him regarding that point and name the spell he is using? I missed the post where the spell was cast. How is he doing what he is saying? Is he using a non core spell, Shapechange or the Lich template for his response?

[Dode]

In Post #132 Kaelik quotes kemmotar thinking he is fighting a lich wizard so why didn't Kaelik correct him regarding that point and name the spell he is using?

Why bother? He's still wrong.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Why bother? He's still wrong.

Not necessarily, if Kaelik is a Lich that's a +4 LA and LA buydown is not a given in all games. If his wizard is a Lich he shouldn't be able to be using level 9 spells in his arguements on the thread without justifying them like from a purchased scroll or other magic item posts I don't recall seeing.

[Dode]

Not necessarily, if Kaelik is a Lich that's a +4 LA and LA buydown is not a given in all games.

Yes necessarily: LA or not, the lich is immune to death attacks and kerunnos' strategy is intrinsically in error.

Secondly, Why bother becoming a Lich when he can throw out an extended Veil of Undeath or Elemental Body? Both of which confer immunity to death and sneak attacks (along with all other benefits of undead type). You know, the spells Kaelik has referenced repeatedly in this discussion.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Yes necessarily: LA or not, the lich is immune to death attacks and kerunnos' strategy is intrinsically in error.

Secondly, Why bother becoming a Lich when he can throw out an extended Veil of Undeath or Elemental Body? Both of which confer immunity to death and sneak attacks (along with all other benefits of undead type). You know, the spells Kaelik has referenced repeatedly in this discussion.

I disagree because a lot of the theads play pretty fast and loose with actions, spells and rules. My understanding was that in this thread Kaelik was limiting himself to core with the SRD for the debate and those spells were not an option which is why he threw in the lich template scenario. Something like casually tossing the +4 LA lich template onto the wizard changes his spell choices, LA buydown is not a given in all games so a Wizard Lich should only have access to level 8 spells without citing using those level 9 spells or explaining how they are being used via an item like a scroll.

[kemmotar]

The lich is immune to sneak attack but i did get around that with deathstrike bracers...which does exactly that, go around immunity to sneak attack. Now indeed i totally forgot about immunity to death effects, but they would still get SA damage with deathstrike bracers...and i don't think elemental are immune to death effects are they?

[Stephen_E]

I feel that's a bit of a stretch, that Mind Blank not only blocks divinations targeted at you, but also divinations on anything that your actions might effect. If it explicitly stated this in the spell description, I'd call it an effective counter, but if it requires a DM judgement call, I'm afraid I'm going to have to call it a house rule (a sensible house rule that addresses a serious game balance issue, but a house rule nonetheless).

I'd popint out that what you doing is using a house rule interetation of divination magic and saying it's RAW while saying someonelses houserule interpretation of divination magic is sensible but only a houserule.

Last I looked DnD Divination magic is much like Illusion magic, badly explained with logic holes that you can drive a tank platoon through without touching the sides. Divination is completely about houserules, which is why all the baloney about Divination magic making Wizards immune from attack is just that, Baloney! It is completely dependant on the DM houserules to make it work. Basically high level Divination magic, indeed most divination magic period, requires the lack of free will and a set future. Since both the entire point of DnD supports the concept of freewill AND the ability to respond to the infomation that divination spells give you and cahnge what happens means the future can't be pre-set.

In short the RAW says Divination magic doesn't work in the way RAW says it does. (in this way it's actually worse than Illusion magic which is merely horribly vague).

From that point on it's all houserules.

Stephen

[AKA_Bait]

No it doesn't, but it does work the way I posted it: Under RAW there are magic item creation rules, these RAW rules permit a players who wants a specific item using core crafting feats and core spells to confer with his DM regarding using the item in his game and at what cost by RAW.

Not sure I agree with how you are framing this. Under RAW there are magic item creation guidelines in the DMG. These guidelines provide a "starting point" for assigning costs to a particular new magical item if the item's creation is permitted in game.

I don't believe I know magic item creation rules are RAW, just like I know a DM can choose to ignore, limit or modify RAW as desired for his game under Rule Zero. I disagree with your RAW interpretation standard because it is far to selective and limiting, the Item creation rules are still RAW, they are a part of the core rules and SRD, they set the standard and are the foundation for all magic items in the game, just because some items will not adhere directly to the formulas in a game doesn't discount those rules they are actually one of the rules of the game by RAW, each game will have their own standards, things like No Candles of Invocation, Wish Rings, Luck Blades, Limited Wish, Miracle or Wish Scrolls which all permitted by RAW and suggested wealth by level, like all things in the game the DM makes the final decision what he allows in his or her game but completely disallowing them in a game is really using Rule Zero and DM fiat.

This is I think is a frequent confusion about RAW and rule 0. Choosing not to allow a specific item located in the DMG or other supplemet is no different than choosing to allow a specific PrC or accepting the D&D cosmology. These are specifically in there as choices and the magic item creation guidelines are a way to give the DM additional options if they find that they want magical items not premade. This in exactly the same vein as the way there is a section on creating your own cosmology. DM's are given a lot of options under RAW but those options are exactly that, options. Using or not using the option is not a decision to limit or modify RAW, it is simply selecting one option under RAW. No option is any more RAW or less RAW than another. It may be the case that reasonable DM's will allow various options to be exercised but it is inaccurate to say that because an option is presented under RAW that the DM's decision not to use said option is an application of rule 0 or DM Fiat. Please remember that the magic item creation guidelines are in the DMG and not the PHB for a reason.

[Wolf53226]

You know, I read this entire thread, was intrigued by the Foresight VS. Mind Blank spell issue. As I read this thread, I was firmly on the side of Mind Blank not effecting Foresight, but I thought to go look up both spells and read their descriptions again before posting, and I think I changed my mind.

This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects.

I think this part of the text is very telling, while Foresight doesn't divine the intentions, or specifically need to know anything about why the harmful object is approaching, it basically gathers the information about the surrounding area and processes that into what will harm the person Foresight was cast on. Then we look a little further in the description of Mind Blank.

In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected.

In effect, Foresight is scrying the area looking for things that will harm you, now I know that Foresight isn't worded that way, but that is basically what the effect is, so it would seem to me, that Foresight wouldn't see you.

As for the argument that it's a 9th level spell, so are Miracle and Wish, and their effects are blocked by Mind Blank.