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2021-06-04, 11:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament
The plan is to give TDO a supernuke to hold the other gods hostage. What happens after that, and what demands they would actually make, is unclear. But if the gods took the threat seriously then TDO would basically control the multiverse.
Serini doesn't seem to know that though; it seems like she buys into Xykon's version of the plan, where he becomes king of the world with Redcloak as his right hand man.
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2021-06-04, 11:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament
The plan is to give the Dark One exactly one supernuke, and once he uses it he's toast. If his demands get too unreasonable, the gods can easily decide to risk trying to take him down. The Snarl can't kill them all if everyone's in their own domains and only converge to attack the Dark One, at which point the Dark One can only kill them by releasing the Snarl on top of himself (and being unmade as a result).
ungelic is us
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2021-06-04, 11:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
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2021-06-04, 11:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament
As stated earlier, TDO wouldn't actually be able to control the multiverse. Perhaps a disproportionate amount of power for a god, but the total power he's aiming for is somewhat less than multiversal domination.
Though yes, Serini seems to believe that Xykon's plan is the case. Which really is one of my big disagreements with her. I mean, "TDO gets the Snarl" or "the gods unmake the world but they're safe to make more" are obviously less than ideal, but they're obviously better than multiversal domination.
Xykon hypothetically gaining control of the Snarl himself might arguably be worse.
Edit:
My current headcanon is "Redcloak's too scared to ask more directly" with a good side helping of "TDO's doing the work of an entire pantheon so he's kinda busy".
...What? Most of us are arguing that TDO's side isn't completely wrong. That doesn't mean Redcloak can't be a complete jackass.Last edited by danielxcutter; 2021-06-04 at 11:34 AM.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2021-06-04, 11:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament
What text colors do we have left to use?
Can there be a text color for "we are only discussing what Serini knows, which does not include Redcloak's actual plan nor the information about the gods wanting to pre-emptively unmake the world to stop The Plan."?
I feel like every time her point of view & decision-making gets discussed, the waters just get muddied with people arguing about stuff she doesn't know.Last edited by Ionathus; 2021-06-04 at 11:39 AM.
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2021-06-04, 11:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament
Or, in the Giant's own words,
(And please do leave me alone with the usual what if the Giant is lying thing).
We have no evidence Redcloak ever called. Heck, he explicitly states that he's trying to give him some space.
Not that he can possibly achieve that through the Ritual.
I will go ahead and suggest this one.Last edited by Metastachydium; 2021-06-04 at 11:39 AM.
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2021-06-04, 11:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament
The snarlnuke only works once if someone calls his bluff. TDO can keep asking for whatever he wants forever as long as the other gods think it's better than being annihilated. As long as the new world order gives the other gods enough worship to stay alive, they'd go along with it.
Agree that Xykon controlling the Snarl would probably be worse. When he claimed he wasn't out to destroy the world, he admitted he might do it if he got really bored. Unlike TDO he might not even wait for someone to call his bluff before using it.
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2021-06-04, 11:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
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Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament
I do wonder what she does know.
Was she like Belkar and skipped a few cutscenes, so to speak? Belkar didn't catch up completely until after Utterly Dwarfed. If she knows that the Snarl can literally murder gods then she's full of crap, but if she thinks it's just another generic doomsday device...
I mean yeah, that was my point. I mean what Serini thinks that Xykon thinks he can do, not what he can actually do.Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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2021-06-04, 11:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-06-04, 11:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament
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The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2021-06-04, 11:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament
Being able to ask for anything that wouldn't prompt a noble sacrifice won't get "all of you be my slaves forever", but it's still a lot. I'd argue that still counts as 'ruling'.
Also this discussion sometimes moves way faster than I write responses. Sorry if I miss things.
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2021-06-04, 11:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament
Personally, I don't think TDO getting control of the Snarl would be that horrible, compared to some of the other possibilities?
I mean, sure. Probably Evil god with control of a god-killing abomination, probably opposed by other Evil gods as well as the others. A forceful change of the status quo, rather than a more natural one.
But while it's far from ideal, and probably a net loss for the multiverse at large, I can't say it's only downsides. Of course, we all know that'll never happen, but it still has less degrees of Total Fail than like, the Snarl breaking loose and unraveling everything, or the IFCC usurping the Ritual or something.
And the one certain positive is that the goblins would be less shafted than they are now. If not as much as TDO wants because a lot of gods would have a bit of a grudge.Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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2021-06-04, 12:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament
I think you define ruling a fair bit more broadly than I think we should, but, of course, you'll think what you will. At any rate, Big Purple definitely could not do this indefinitely, because frustration over a feeling of impotence would quite likely build up quite quickly given that we are talking about quasiomnipotent beings.
Also this discussion sometimes moves way faster than I write responses. Sorry if I miss things.
Precisely! Where was Gondor when I regularly voiced something like that and got called an apologist of terrorism for that?Last edited by Metastachydium; 2021-06-04 at 12:15 PM.
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2021-06-04, 12:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament
Im pretty sure this was in the strip?
In short: they discussed paying the hobgoblins to leave, which probably would have worked and seems to be the common real world practice when dealing with barbarian hordes (at least since the invention of money).
However, the hobgoblins werent in charge, so asking what the hobgoblins wanted was a moot point.
Remember, Azure City wasnt attacked by hobgoblins. It was attacked by a human sorcerer with a hobgoblin army.Last edited by Dion; 2021-06-04 at 12:19 PM.
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2021-06-04, 12:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament
What does Gondor have to do with anything?
Er, no. Kubota suggested giving whatever Xykon wanted to him, except what he wanted was the Gate and we all know why that's a bad idea. Plus Kubota wasn't in on the secret, though I wonder if that'd have changed much anyways. Might have changed the minds of some of the nobles, actually, considering Kubota was apparently quite more power-hungry than the others. But it wouldn't have been worth spilling the beans anyways.Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
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2021-06-04, 12:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament
FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2021-06-04, 12:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
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2021-06-04, 12:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament
FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2021-06-04, 12:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
Extended sig here.
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2021-06-04, 12:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-06-04, 01:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament
Based on what Roy said, they were likely counting on Xykon to break in, grab what he wanted, and leave with his prize; without having much time to bother with the rest of the city...at which point they would come back and reclaim their stuff (and possibly more, depending on how Hinjo's ability to resist was looking). Xykon being unable to take his prize with him, and thus hanging around the city with an army of hobgoblins, would change that picture.
Last edited by Jasdoif; 2021-06-04 at 01:15 PM.
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The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2021-06-04, 01:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
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2021-06-04, 01:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament
The guy wanted "concessions and benefits" before ascending to Godhood, we don't know what his actual plans are now. All we know is what Redcloak says, Redcloak who never got to talk to his deity about it.
The only thing we know now of the Dark One is that after ascending he's been melting any messenger that came his way so I wouldn't be so quick at crossing "and you are now all my slaves" from his actual, updated list.
This is very naive. The thing with being the only one in the world with access to nukes is that you don't need to use them to control the world, all you need is the fear of you pressing the button.
All you need is letting people know that you have a button to press and you're bound to see gods coming your way to butter you up into not being the target.
All you need is a few opportunistic gods willing to become your servants in exchange for leeching off your power and authority over those who don't and the whole "all gods gang up on you" becomes pretty much impossible.
If what you say was true then a single guy with a gun could never hold dozens of people hostage: if they all rushed the guy clearly he could only be able to take down so much before getting overwhelmed... but that rarely if ever happens.
What actually happens is that they all just cower because they don't wanna be the ones getting shot.
Let's not kid ourselves into thinking that controlling the Snarl doesn't mean controlling the multiverse.
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2021-06-04, 02:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament
Why do you say "nukes"? It's one singular nuke and no ability to make more. Furthermore, every party involved knows that, if the nuke is actually used, then the Dark One is gone. It's a standoff. Imagine someone with a single-shot pistol pointing it at a number of enemies armed with swords. Sure, nobody will want to go first and be shot, but if the pistol guy doesn't offer them a reasonable way out, then they'll charge and cut down the pistol guy.
Hostages don't usually rush criminals because most of the time it's not worth it, but if the criminal keeps making things worse and worse, at a certain point the risk will be worth it for at least some people.
Also, you might want to read The Giant's quotes on the topic.Last edited by hroțila; 2021-06-04 at 02:25 PM.
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2021-06-04, 02:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament
This has the ring of truth, but leaves out an important calculus: TDO apparently* doesn't know the gods have the option of unmaking creation themselves so that they can beat the Snarl to the punch. So to torture the metaphor a bit, he has a nuke -- but he doesn't know that the gods have well-stocked bunkers and an early-warning system, while he only has a tub of pistachio ice cream and a few bags of Cheetos. (Sucks to be everyone at ground zero, but that doesn't help TDO.)
* - Or maybe he does, because he's better at finding information than the gods we've heard from give him credit for? Remember that they were going to let him in on the secret when it was convenient, but he found out first. But it doesn't matter, and we're back to the same place, unless TDO can figure out a ritual that takes less time than it would take the gods to pull the trigger on unmaking creation.
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2021-06-04, 02:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament
This is not the first time I post this same quote on this very page of this very thread, but apparently it needs reiterating.
As per the Word of the Giant:
Emphases mine.
In other words, sorry, no
1. Big Purple waving around the Gate canonically cannot achieve just about anything
2. and Big Purple canonically knows this.
Let's not kid ourselves into thinking that controlling the Snarl doesn't mean controlling the multiverse.Last edited by Metastachydium; 2021-06-04 at 02:57 PM.
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2021-06-04, 03:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2021
Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament
One or two nukes, 6 bullets or one, a knife you can only swing once... doesn't matter. Once you possess a superior threat in your hands that nobody can match + people terrified to be subjected to said threat then you have all the elements to be in control.
Nobody's gonna want to be that one martyr who goes first and dies while the others survive, meaning that so long you play your cards right and don't exacerbate the situation provoking an attack out of emotion then you're de facto the leader of the pantheon.
You're in control of the multiverse.
It really doesn't since you're missing how that post is irrelevant to this discussion.
All it describes is stuff that happens once the button is pressed, I'm talking about how you can game the gods so you can rule without ever having to actually press said button.
It's truly naive to believe that having just one nuke means "well duh, someone is just gonna get nuked once and then the tyrant's done for!".... except reality doesn't work this way, people don't work this way, history teaches just that.
What actually would happen is that the guy with the single nuke keeps strategically dangling it over one target or another inspiring fear and concessions from said target of the day, meanwhile some realize that it's better to rule in hell than serve in paradise and thus bow to the guy so long they can second-hand rule the others.
Controlling the Snarl, even if just once, is controlling the universe, and the same would happen in our world if only one country could use the only Atom Bomb in existance.
Nobody's gonna go against a guy with the power to God-Kill. Not one. Doesn't matter if he can only use it once.Last edited by Severance; 2021-06-04 at 03:31 PM.
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2021-06-04, 03:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament
History is full of examples of people that were pressed too hard, to the point of taking extremely dangerous actions because the alternative was unbearable. If the Dark One doesn't overplay his hand, he certainly has a very definite advantage and he can get concessions. If he takes it too far, the risk-to-reward assessment changes. The last sentence in The Giant's post is 100% relevant to the scenario being discussed.
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2021-06-04, 03:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2021
Re: Thoughts on the OOTS goblin predicament
Which is why I said he must not overplay his hand.
Just take it slow, go one inch at a time, scrub away a little freedom and power from the other gods at a time, a little concession leading into a slightly bigger one, and a slightly bigger one yet again, keep moving that window...
Bam, there you have [Literally Every Real World Tyrant in History Ever].
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2021-06-04, 03:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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