Fyraltari watches The Clone Wars (2008) for the first time

[Mechalich]

I suppose it depends on the how you define the pieces.

The central action in a lightsaber is you have a power source, you run that source through a kyber crystal, and then you push the result through an emitter that produces a shaped 'blade' of plasma out in a sustained loop. That's the engine of a lightsaber and it only really has three components, and one of them cannot be changed.

Now, critically, it can be duplicated. Many of the more substantial lightsaber variants like double-bladed, variable blade length, crossguards, etc. all require multiple crystals, emitters, and power cells. A double-bladed lightsaber light Maul's is effectively two lightsabers welded together (in Legends there was a Sith who taught Darth Bane who did exactly that, and could switch from double-bladed to dual sabers by cutting the weld as a result). The Jedi do have a bunch of dogma against these kind of variations, probably based around the idea that giving an apprentice more than one crystal is somehow indulging greed or something.

Now, you can take the engine of the saber and put it into basically any kind of housing you want. Heck, you can put it on the end of a staff and have a pike instead of a saber. Essentially you can make the lightsaber version of a car, a truck, an SUV, even a motorcycle, but just as all of those run on internal combustion engines (and big vehicles mostly just have more cylinders than smaller ones) you can't change the core reaction. There's no lightsaber equivalent of a diesel.

[dancrilis]

... there would have been more opportunity for "the correct way" to be questionned and more diverse designs to emerge.

There is a recent short star wars comic where Obi-Wan explains to Anakin why the Jedi use lightsabers, it boils down to them being difficult weapons to use and acts as a symbol to highlight the Jedi's restraint and skill i.e the galaxy knows that the Jedi could use kyber crystals to create bombs or guns or what have you but those would instill fear rather then respect.

So the Jedi don't want to question the basic design.

There is also a follow on story where Palpatine explains to Vader why the Sith use lightsabers, it boils down to 'they look badass'.

[hamishspence]

Now, critically, it can be duplicated. Many of the more substantial lightsaber variants like double-bladed, variable blade length, crossguards, etc. all require multiple crystals, emitters, and power cells. A double-bladed lightsaber light Maul's is effectively two lightsabers welded together (in Legends there was a Sith who taught Darth Bane who did exactly that, and could switch from double-bladed to dual sabers by cutting the weld as a result). The Jedi do have a bunch of dogma against these kind of variations, probably based around the idea that giving an apprentice more than one crystal is somehow indulging greed or something.

In the newcanon, plenty of "regular Jedi" have double-bladed lightsabers (The Temple Guard, Krell, etc) - so there may not be all that much dogma. In the High Republic era (200 years before TPM) there's even a Jedi who uses a lightwhip (hers is a regular lightsaber that can be switched to "lightwhip mode") - lightwhips were only used by Sith in Legends.

[Mechalich]

In the newcanon, plenty of "regular Jedi" have double-bladed lightsabers (The Temple Guard, Krell, etc) - so there may not be all that much dogma. In the High Republic era (200 years before TPM) there's even a Jedi who uses a lightwhip (hers is a regular lightsaber that can be switched to "lightwhip mode") - lightwhips were only used by Sith in Legends.

True, maybe it's a limited restriction applying primarily to students. Theoretically, the idea would be that you have to qualify on the base model before you can move on to more advanced designs. Lots of actual law enforcement organizations work that way; everyone has to train with the service pistol, but you have to take advanced courses to use rifles or shotguns.

[Sapphire Guard]

Every lightsabre is custom made by the wielder, though, so the time a Jedi looks at the basic design and adapts it is...every time.

[Fyraltari]

Every lightsabre is custom made by the wielder, though, so the time a Jedi looks at the basic design and adapts it is...every time.

No, they pick from a variety of options within the same design everytime. They're not inventing anything.

Edit: Which, I feel the need to point out, is a perfectly fine given they're ten-year-olds, nobody is asking them to invent anything.

[Peelee]

In the newcanon, plenty of "regular Jedi" have double-bladed lightsabers

In Legends as well.

Not commenting on lightwhips as those are dumb.

True, maybe it's a limited restriction applying primarily to students. Theoretically, the idea would be that you have to qualify on the base model before you can move on to more advanced designs. Lots of actual law enforcement organizations work that way; everyone has to train with the service pistol, but you have to take advanced courses to use rifles or shotguns.

What source are you pulling from?

[Fyraltari]

In the newcanon, plenty of "regular Jedi" have double-bladed lightsabers (The Temple Guard, Krell, etc)

...
I'm not sure how I managed to forget about Krell.

[Fyraltari]

Season 5, Episode 8: Bound for rescue

Spoiler: Recap

Show

So it turns out the improvised "repairs" of the last episode were only good for one jump into hyperspace. the younglings, now stranded into space, contact the fleet, more precisely "the General Kenobi?" They quickly recap the last episode for him and he says he'll send Cody pick them up while he goes to Florum to deal with Hondo. "Will Ahsoka be alright? -Hondo would be even more of a fool than I think he is to even think to hurt her." ... I think you have an overly optimistic assessment of Ohnaka's cognitive abilities, Obi-Wan. Naturally Petro wants to be part of the rescue mission, but Kenobi is having none of it. However, before Cody or Kenobi can go anywhere, a separatist fleet shows up and opens fire, putting the rescue mission on the backburner.

While waiting to be rescued, Katooni, Gunji, Petro and Byph are assembling their lightsibers. Not sure how Petro got new parts since Huyang is still in pieces. It's a very nice sequence, each doing essentially the same thing but the levitating pieces move at different speeds giving each a bit of personnality. Katooni is calm and methodical, Petro is quicker, Byph is unsure and then precise and Gunji is focused on one part at a time. Gunji's got a green blade while Byph and Petro have blues. Katooni's lightsaber doesn't work yet, though. They start wondering where the rescue is and Petro insists they try and rescue Ahsoka themselves. Gunji and Byph (surprisingly) agree while Katooni reminds them the reason they are treated like children is because they are. In come Ganodi and Zatt who explains they have a big problem: the coolant system is leaking meaning they risk an explosion soon. They have to land to "let the system reset". Petro points out that since they have to land anyway, they might as well do it on Florum and rescue Ahsoka.

Cut to Florum, where the pirates are throwing a party, because why not? Tano tells Honaka to let her go. He says that'd be unprofitable and short-sighted. I'm surprised that last one features in his vocabulary, honestly. Then he teases her with some alcohol for no reason other than being a prick. MEanwhile, the Republican fleet isn't doing so well and the Separatists are sending boarding parties. One of which lands in the central rift on Obi-Wan's cruiser (you know, the one the hangars all connect to?) and out comes Grievous. Laughing. In space. I get surviving in space for a while, but he can speak in space? He and Kenobi meet face to face and the cyborg crushes a clone underfoot, something the Jedi vows to make him regret. You know, even if you did manage to kill him there and then, I doubt he'd think "Ah, if only I'd just killed 19,999 clones instead of 20,000, he'd have let me lived!" THey start fighting.

The children land on Florum, in the middle of nowhere for safety. Zatt orders R2 to finish repairing Pr. Huyang, and Petro tells ganodi to stay with the ship, because she's the only one who's done flight simulation at the Temple and they're probably going to need to make a quick escape. She agrees. They start walking towards the pirate base (Zatt's scanners detect a big power source) and Petro admits he doesn't actually have a plan to rescue Ahsoka, but they'll think of something right? Ahsoka tells Hondo the Republic won't pay a ransom for her and the separatists would rather kill them both than pay him. Ohnaka admits Dooku holds a grudge against him since the whole "hostage" business. I dunno, you seem to be doing an awful lot of breathing for a guy a Sith Lord has a grudge against. Not to worry, Hondo has another client in mind: more nefarious criminals than him, who would pay handsomely for a Jedi especially a female one (I don't like the way he empathized that word at all) and who don't care if she's alive or dead. Okay, what the actual ****, Hondo!

In space, Kenobi throws a fuel barrel at Grievous (the resulting explosion doesn't even hurt him) and runs for it. He orders the crew to abandon ship and tells Cody they're going to leave Grievous a parting gift before escaping. On Florum, the yougnlings spot a huge speeder belonging to a travelling carnival act headed to Hondo's base. They introdue themselves to the ringmaster, a Dug called Priego, as stranded... acrobats who would want to join. They convince him by improvising a couple human (sapient?) pyramids and he eagerly take them in, never questionning why five preteen acrobats would be wandering the galaxy alone. Back to space, Grievous takes over the command center of the ship and orders every bit of intel recovered. A message left by Kenobi plays, congratulating him on his victory and telling him the ship is set to self-destruct. Why would you ever tell him that? the Republican soldiers leave in the escape pods while Grievous makes it to his shuttle just before the cruiser explodes. Obi-Wan watches the light-show and laments that the younglings are on their own. You are in escape pods in the middle of space battle you side is clearly losing, worry about yourself, man!

The carnies come to the pirate's base with loud music, juggling clowns, dancing twi'leks wearing Hutt-masks (this is even weirded than last time!) and tamed colorful beasts. Is that a Gamorrean in kabuki make-up? Priego pays his respect to his hosts and hypes his number. Hondo is glad and reminds him that he had his previous artists beheaded for not being entertaining enough. One pirate even produces a skull to mock the carnies with. Why would you ever come back to this place?! the younglings, wearing garish costumes that do a good job at concealing their faces spot Ahsoka's lightsbaers on Hondo's belt just as he has her brought to watch the show. The younglings strat performing a rather elaborate act (to Ahsoka's consternation) involving a plank placed across a cylinder to lauch someone in the air when somebody else jumps on the opposite end. Petro invites Hondo to participates, somethign Priego and the twi'lek encourage for some reason. Ohnaka, who is clearly drunk ("I may not be as young as I once was, but I'm older!") willingly walks to the plank while Katooni pickpotes the sabers and Byph jumps from the top of Priego's ship onto the plank, catapulting Hondo through the air and sending him crashing into a pile of rubbish.

Katooni frees Ahsoka and gives her her weapons back. Hondo is still having fun... until his second-in-command spots the acrobats fleeing with the prisoner and understands what's happening. the pirates open fire and the Jedi parry with their lightsabers (hey, Zatt finished his offscreen!). The carnies run away in panic, the Jedi... commandeer a speeder and the pirates pursue on jetbikes. The only one left is a confused, drunk Hondo who end up hugging a beast of burden Priego forgot. After making sure they've shaken the pirates off, Ahsoka tells the kids they were very brave and, although she should pretend to be angry with them, she's learned from her master to not always obey orders. Points for honesty? PEtro calls Ganodi and tells her to prepare for take-off.

Spoiler: My thoughts

Show

this was a fun one. Rather light-hearted, despite a dark moment when Hondo talks about his clients. I mean, most children won't understand what he's getting at, but still, what the hell was that necessary for?

still, the carnies made for some interesting visual designs and the acrobatics were very nice. The space battle was clearly padding, but a bit of space combat is always welcome. Kinda wished they'd spared grievous yet another humiliation, though.

Next up: A Necessary Bound. No idea what it's going to be about. Since this show likes it's four-parters, I'm going to guees the conclusion of the younglings' trip and them being assigned masters?

[Fyraltari]

Season 5, Episode 9: A Necessary bond

Spoiler: Recap

Show

We get back to the Jedi en route to their ship with the pirates having managed to catch up on them and firing wildly. Petro calls Ganodi again, but she takes time to respond as she was busy reattaching Huyang's head to his shoulders (his arms are still missing, though). Ahsoka gives her their coordinates so she can rescue them. She hovers the ship over the speeders and lowers the boarding ramp. Ahsoka gets everyone to climb ontop of their vehicle while she uses a mask to get the steering wheel (stick?) stuck on "forward". The younglings start jumping aboard but a shot from the pirates makes the steering come loose and the speeder drifts away from the ship, forcing Petro to go back inside and drive the speeder. And by "jumping oaboard" I mean "Gunji and Byph are hanging for dear life". Aaaaaaand the speeders are headed for a cliff. R2 brings the ship back to the speeder but the pirates shoot the reactors and ahsoka orders him to evacuate as the ship crashes on the Jedi's speeder.

The weequays capture the Jedi and bring them back ti Hondo's fortress. Only to discover it overrun by Separatist forces! Grievous leads his troops right inside, with Hondo none the wiser as he's apparently in the middle of another party, drinking. Dude, it's like 7 in the morning, I think you have a problem. Hondo tries to behave as if Grievous is a guest. Mandatory "you can dispense with the pleasantries." The cyborg informs him he's claiming this planet for the glory of the Separatist Alliance. And Dooku wants a word. Dooku's holograms informs him that it's time to pay for holding him captive back in season 1... He's taking all his stuff and melting it down for military supplies! No, seriously, that's it. He's not going to kill him or torture him or anything. Who knew Sith Lords could be so forgiving?

The Jedi and their captors don't really know what to do. Ahsoka points out that Grievous's presence here means he's beaten Kenobi and they're now right in Separatist space, at least for the time being, so no luck for reinforcement. Hondo's second in command considers trading them to Grievous for safe passage out of the system but she says he'll just kill them instead, and yeah, fair. She guesses they have some other ships hidden somewhere which he confirms. Problem is, only Hondo knows where they are. How does that work? So, Tano offers a team-up to rescue Hondo and the pirate agrees.

R2 rolls in with the pirate tank, claiming to have captured it, distracting a few B1s, which allows the others to slip by. When the battle droid asks for his identification, R2 badmouths him, then apologizes when he gets angry and the B1 sends him away, not realizing he never answered the question. They get to Hondo's cell. They tell him they need his ships to escape. He congratulates Ahsoka on her diplomacy, but he doesn't believe they can fight their way to his "vault". Petro insists they can fight, and Huyang backs him up, stating that he's instructed Jedi for "over a thousand generations" and these are among the best he's ever seen. Dang, Huyang goes waaaaaaaaaay back. Hondo wants them to prove it to him, by showing him their swords. Which they do, except for Katooni as her is still unfinished. She doesn't understand why, as she's followed the step religiously. Huyang tells her she must trust in the force to binds the components together and Hondo insists she finishes it now. He says that watching a lightsaber be built is well worth the price of a ship, it's priceless. Huh, I like that, even an immoral pirate like Hondo has a sense of beauty and wonder.

she repeats the process and this time it works. Katooni, uses her new blue weapon to cut a giggling Hondo free before being congratulated by her classmate. Ahsoka ask Hondo why he put on such a show when he didn't have any other options. He says that they're about to try something really dangerous and he doesn't like taking children into danger. She points out that he was trying to murder those same children not 50 hours ago and he answers that "today is a new day! And lucky for you, today, I like children." I think Hondo needs therapy. They start freeing the rest of the gang. Outside, the droids are burning random stuff, overseen by Grievous until he's called by a droid warning him of an attack on the prison by miniature Jedi. Since he's here to wreck stuff anyway, grievous orders his tanks to fire on the building to collapse it on the Jedi. However, our... let's say heroes, come out of the building after two shots, so it's not collapsed, and cut their way through his army. Hondo on his lieutenants grab a few jetbikes while the Jedi climb aboard the speeder-tank they came in on. Except Katooni who's riding with Hondo. Not sure how the rest of the gang gets away.

Grievous give chase on his personal, and rather sick-looking jetbike. They drive through the same maze-like canyons Aurra sing tried to escape through back in season 2. The pirates take a sudden turn while the Jedi and the Seppies continue straight ahead. Hondo tells Katooni not to worry about it and uses a remote to open a fake rock-wall. Above which there's the wreck of a ship that looks suspiciously like a B-Wing or that ship Anakin flew in the pilot movie. Any idea what's up with that? The secret passage leads to a hangar with a varied collection of ships. Including the Slave 1 completely repaired and with a new paint-job. Okay, Did Hondo do all that by himself? How could he be the only one to know where that place is? They board the Slave 1, but Katooni says they can't leave the others behind like that. Hondo replies that she's wlecome to join his gang if she wants. she refuses and guilt-trips him by saying ahsoka trusted him. Did she, though?

Meanwhile Grievous jumped on the Jedi's speeder and is fighting one against six. Well, more like one against three-and-a-half, but still, impressive. Huyang tells R2 to "do something" to shake grievous off, sounding very much like the Tenth Doctor. the astromech rocks the speeder violently, making them fly out of the canyon and crash. That doesn't stop Grievous for long, and the child-killer starts figuratively foaming at the mouth (does he still have one of those?) at the thought of expending his lightsaber collection. At this point the Slave 1 shows up and Ahsoka tells the others to run for it. she duels Grievous for a while. He very clearly doesn't use his four arms as much as he could. There's even e point where he's grabbed her face and he throws her away instead of skewering her, what the hell? Still, she manages to distract him long enough for everyone to get onboard and she jumps in as well. grievous raises his blades at nothing at yells "You will never defeat grievous! Nevaaaah!" Dude, you're just embarrassing yourself. Ohnaka fires at him with the ship's turrets, which means he's not allowed to parry with his lightsabers and he falls to the ground. Befor ethey can finish him off, though, tanks show up and fires on them, so Hondo calls it a day. Grievous laughs as if he hadn't completely failed what he was there to do.

Back witht eh Republic fleet Ohnaka tries to charge Kenobi for the expanses encured during his "rescue operation" (he's pretty sure a few of his men died?). Kenobi asks him if that's how he calls hijacking a Jedi ship and Hondo, outraged by such ungratefulness leaves while Obi-Wan gives a bemused look to Cody. No! What are you doing Obi-Wan! He tried to murdered younglings, he damaged Huyang, he captured Ahsoka and tried to sell her into unspecified but very sinister ****, he destroyed one of the Order's ships! You can't just let him get way with this, why are you letting him get away with this? What is wrong with your brain chemistry!? Hondo gives a nod to Katooni as he leaves because they've bonded, I guess? Obi-Wan welcomes Ahsoka and Huyang, who got new arms, says this was the most eventful gathering since Master Yoda's. Of course the younglings immediately want to know, but Obi-Wan says the story will have to wait. He congratulates them on their achievement and calls them "young Jedi". They all draw their sabers and pint them together like the Knights of the round Table, proud to be truly part of the Order. And then Anakin murdered them all. The end.

Spoiler: My thoughts

Show

this was rather nice. I feel the chase with the pirates at the beginning dragged on a little and the rest of the episode felt rushed, so it probably could have been paced better. Maybe the re-capture should have happened at the end of the last episode?

Hondo is likable again in this one, but this really shows that they don't know how to handle his character. He feels like a different person entirely from the previous two episodes! Even the show knows this and tries to excuse it with that "today is another day" nonsense. Wild Card characters are fun, but they should stay coherent. If the character comes across as suffering from a borderline undiagnosed multiple identity disorder, then you're doing it wrong! Still, like I said, Hondo Ohnaka marveling at the creation of a lightsaber is a nice touch. He's not just a greedy ******* (although he's certainly that), he's laso got a bit of the romantic adventurer in him.

Grievous just keep failing. It's not even disappointing anymore. I'm more disappointed in Dooku really, that was some weaksauce revenge. And as we saw in the first episode of the season, Hondo ultimately gets to come back to this fortress, only a bit worse for it, with still dozens of pirates and three whole ships. The guy basically never faces consequences for his own actions.

We never got to see Huyang fight. I hope he shows up again, David Tennant is great.

Next up: Secret Weapons. The Separatist just never learn, do they?

[Mechalich]

Hondo is likable again in this one, but this really shows that they don't know how to handle his character. He feels like a different person entirely from the previous two episodes! Even the show knows this and tries to excuse it with that "today is another day" nonsense. Wild Card characters are fun, but they should stay coherent. If the character comes across as suffering from a borderline undiagnosed multiple identity disorder, then you're doing it wrong! Still, like I said, Hondo Ohnaka marveling at the creation of a lightsaber is a nice touch. He's not just a greedy ******* (although he's certainly that), he's laso got a bit of the romantic adventurer in him.

I'd say Hondo's more manic-depressive than multiple personality. His emotional range really is all over the map. However, he is a Weequay, it's possible that they are more prone to rapid mood swings than humans. That said, I do think the writers let Hondo play to the camera too much. His mood has a bad tendency to shift along with the needs of the plot.

[Keltest]

I think Hondo mostly suffers from a lack of a clearly defined goal. He's a pirate/mercenary/trader/something, and what that thing is changes from episode to episode and even within the same episode. He takes defeat in good spirits, but its also never really clear if he needed to do it in the first place, so he kind of comes off as arbitrarily cruel a lot.

[Mechalich]

I think Hondo mostly suffers from a lack of a clearly defined goal. He's a pirate/mercenary/trader/something, and what that thing is changes from episode to episode and even within the same episode. He takes defeat in good spirits, but its also never really clear if he needed to do it in the first place, so he kind of comes off as arbitrarily cruel a lot.

That's true. I think Hondo's supposed to be a sort of 'I'll take any job, so long as it pays' general purpose criminal, which helps explain his variety of interests. However, it's a bit tricky to justify why he needs to bother with highly eclectic jobs during the Clone Wars - which is absolutely a seller's market for any smuggler/criminal/gang leader. He could make a fortune just running guns or spice, no need to bother with risky weird stuff.

I actually feel he works better in Rebels, when Imperial constraints mean that criminal enterprise feels the pinch and a low-level crook like Hondo has to scrounge for any opportunity.

[Grim Portent]

I always kind of assumed that Hondo is more than a little insane. He does outlandish and risky things because he gets bored with saner methods of making money, and is unpredictable and dangerous, but also generous enough that his crew stays more or less loyal.

That he never faces real consequences is irritating though. It's not like him being arrested by the Republic on one of the occasions the Jedi have him outnumbered would inherently prevent using him in the future.

[Kornaki]

The problem is nowhere in the rulebook does it say you can't capture a jedi and sell them into slavery. So his hands are kind of tied on this one.


You can't capture a regular person but the rules for regular people don't apply to jedi, and hondo is the only one outside the order to figure out this loophole.

[AMX]

Only to discover it overrun by Separatist forces! Grievous leads his troops right inside, with Hondo none the wiser as he's apparently in the middle of another party, drinking. Dude, it's like 7 in the morning, I think you have a problem.

I suppose substance abuse issues could explain his erratic behaviour.

Maybe Hondo is self-medicating in an attempt to deal with trauma resulting from his life as a pirate

[McNum]

Next up: Secret Weapons. The Separatist just never learn, do they?

I just want to say "Good luck, we're all counting on you."

Not a fan of the next few episodes, but once you pass The Point of No Return, you're golden until the end.

[Fyraltari]

I'd say Hondo's more manic-depressive than multiple personality. His emotional range really is all over the map. However, he is a Weequay, it's possible that they are more prone to rapid mood swings than humans.

Well, I was being hyperbolic, not actually trying to diagnose a fictionnal character.

That said, I do think the writers let Hondo play to the camera too much. His mood has a bad tendency to shift along with the needs of the plot.

Like I said, he's very inconstant.

I think Hondo mostly suffers from a lack of a clearly defined goal. He's a pirate/mercenary/trader/something, and what that thing is changes from episode to episode and even within the same episode. He takes defeat in good spirits, but its also never really clear if he needed to do it in the first place, so he kind of comes off as arbitrarily cruel a lot.

I mean, even if that's the idea the execution is just bad. Everytime he's the antagonist he's very evil and every time he's on the heroes' side he has some moral code. It's arbitray. And also, our heroes just tolerate his ****, for no reason.

That's true. I think Hondo's supposed to be a sort of 'I'll take any job, so long as it pays' general purpose criminal, which helps explain his variety of interests.

But also he murders circus performers if they're not entertaining enough for him.

I actually feel he works better in Rebels, when Imperial constraints mean that criminal enterprise feels the pinch and a low-level crook like Hondo has to scrounge for any opportunity.

Meh, the Empire is much better for criminals than the Republic ever was. They have no interest in actually protecting the people and the leadership is corrupt and greedy. We see in Solo that they work with criminal syndicates like Crimson Dawn and the Pykes. Hondo could make a fortune under the Empire as long as he doesn't try to steal from them.


Okay, it makes sense that he's broke.

That he never faces real consequences is irritating though. It's not like him being arrested by the Republic on one of the occasions the Jedi have him outnumbered would inherently prevent using him in the future.

Frankly it makes the Jedi look callous and dumb and Dooku look weak.

The problem is nowhere in the rulebook does it say you can't capture a jedi and sell them into slavery. So his hands are kind of tied on this one.


You can't capture a regular person but the rules for regular people don't apply to jedi, and hondo is the only one outside the order to figure out this loophole.

Wuh?

I suppose substance abuse issues could explain his erratic behaviour.

Maybe Hondo is self-medicating in an attempt to deal with trauma resulting from his life as a pirate

I hate how much sense that makes. I really doubt that's what they're going for, but it would explain things. We better stop with this line of thinking before we ascribe his stunts to a subconscious death wish. Aaaaaand I just did.

I just want to say "Good luck, we're all counting on you."

Not a fan of the next few episodes, but once you pass The Point of No Return, you're golden until the end.

Oh, great.

[Grim Portent]

Main thing about Hondo's behaviour is that he's just a major opportunist.

When he's in a position of power he's basically always an *******, even if he sometimes puts on a show of being friendly. When he's in a position of weakness, or in a more straightforward business arrangement that isn't worth breaking he gets all touchy feely to keep people from watching for him trying to cheat them the first chance gets. Really he should have had a story with some comeuppance at some point, but for some reason he never spends time in a Republic jail or a CIS work camp or anything.

He does wind up on the wrong side of the Empire, in no small part because he doesn't want to cooperate with them, he wants to make money by breaking their rules. He's practically compelled to betray people and break the law.


Thinking about it, I suspect he's working for Palpatine, or one of his agents, during this particuar story. He wants Kyber crystals, which are generally valuable anyway, but Palpatine is already getting CIS patsies to look at making more grandiose weapons that use them, and getting crystals can't be easy even with the CIS looting them from any lightsaber that Grievous doesn't get his hands on.

Palpatine also wants to abduct Force sensitives, either to use them as agents for the CIS or to turn them into Inquisitors and assassins. And maybe experiments, he liked his experiments.

On top of that, Palpatine is probably one of the few people who would know about the routes taken by the Jedi to and from Illum, and when they were going to be making the trip.

[dancrilis]

They have no interest in actually protecting the people and the leadership is corrupt and greedy.

I don't know if this is fair, nothing seems to indicate that Palpatine, Vader, Tarkin, Thrawn or other top players are corrupt or greedy - we don't see them taking bribes or the like, within the confines of the jobs they do they seem to do them fairly honestly.

[hamishspence]

"Corrupting the legal system" is how Palpatine ensured Gunray never got convicted after TPM.

As the Naboo governor puts it in AOTC:

"It's outrageous. But after four trials in the Supreme Court, Nute Gunray is still the Viceroy of the Trade Federation. I fear the Senate is powerless to resolve this crisis."

And "greed" is what drives him to rule the galaxy - he wants the whole galaxy to be "owned by him" at least in the metaphorical sense.

[Keltest]

Theres also the whole thing where Palpatine instigated a revolution in order to get those most opposed to his corruption out of power and replaced with loyalists and/or arrested. That seems kind of corrupt.

[hamishspence]

And in the previous season, there's the whole "Long have Sith empires been built on the backs of slaves" thing - he's ordering Dooku to open links with the Zygerrians.

By Star Wars Rebels, slavery is portrayed as pretty normal in the Empire - in the very first episode, Hera poses as a slave trader delivering a slave, and is promptly let on board an imperial ship, and her group later travel to Kessel to rescue some Wookiee slaves from the Empire.

So it's gone from "no slavery in Republic bounds" to "some slavery in the Empire" thanks to Palpatine.


In the Solo movie, Kessel seems to be where "Empire and criminal groups work together" - it's an Empire prison, but also a spice mine, where slaves mine spice that the Pyke Syndicate ship out and sell.


There's hints at the Empire involvement with Kessel as early as ANH - Threepio predicting that the Empire will send him and Artoo to the spice mines if they don't smash them to bits.

[Fyraltari]

I don't know if this is fair, nothing seems to indicate that Palpatine, Vader, Tarkin, Thrawn or other top players are corrupt or greedy - we don't see them taking bribes or the like, within the confines of the jobs they do they seem to do them fairly honestly.

Vader spends all of Episode V plotting to usurp Sidious with Luke's help. Tarkin knew and abetted Sidious's efforts to subvert the Republic he'd sworn loyalty to into the monstrosity that is the Empire.
Thrawn

Spoiler: Thrawn, by Timothy Zahn

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is a mole for the Chiss Ascendency.

As for evidence that Sidious is corrupt and greedy , I refer you to every single one of his appearances.

Furthermore it is strongly implied (and confirmed in interviews) that grand Vizier Mass Amedda (and likley all of Chancellor Palpatine's closest collaborators) knew he was running both sides of the Clone Wars and stifled Valorum's efforts to solve the Naboo Crisis.

But my point was more general, take any piece of media set under the Empire and see how many of the leading Imperials in them are in for personal advancement or to line their pockets. The Empire is pyramid-shaped organization where the only accountability is to those above you and power over those below is total. This inevitably leads to a dog-eat-dog mentality where everyone is constantly backstabbing one another and trying to gain an advantage any way they can. The fools who join because they mistakenly believe the Empire is a force for good either die, are disillusioned or turned into tools by the one who realize what game they are playing and are ruthlessly climbing their way to the top. The Empire doesn't exist to help the people or to enforce "order", that's the party line, the Empire exists to oppress as many people as possible, to turn them into the gears of a machine aimed at extracting the most wealth from the galaxy as possible and funneling it into the pockets of the Empire's elites either directly or through crime syndicates or megacorporations like Blastech or TaggeCo (notice the link with general Tagge from ANH and the Vader comics). That's what fascist regimes do.

Edit: Also in Legends, the leader of Black Sun is one of Palpatine's closest advisors and in Solo we see that the Empire relagated the management of KEssel, the one source of a strategically vital resource, to the Pyke's Syndicate and will rush to their aid guns ablaze in case of a slave revolt.

[dancrilis]

"Corrupting the legal system" is how Palpatine ensured Gunray never got convicted after TPM.

As the Naboo governor puts it in AOTC:

"It's outrageous. But after four trials in the Supreme Court, Nute Gunray is still the Viceroy of the Trade Federation. I fear the Senate is powerless to resolve this crisis."

And "greed" is what drives him to rule the galaxy - he wants the whole galaxy to be "owned by him" at least in the metaphorical sense.

I will grant that the Republic was corrupt.

The Empire is pyramid-shaped organization where the only accountability is to those above you and power over those below is total.

This is to an extent my view - it is difficult for such a system to be corrupt at the top, nobody was bribing the Emperor because there was nothing to bribe him with making him effectively incorruptable, people lower down could be corrupted 'help us and we will help you take out your boss and you can move up' but the leadership of the Empire were largely beyond reproach when it came to corrupt behaviour as the system didn't really allow anything to corrupt them with (Vader was a traitor in wanting to overthrow Palpatine but he wasn't really corrupt about it he wasn't offering governership for politicians backing him or anything like that, he wasn't offering or accepting bribes or anything like that).

[Fyraltari]

This is to an extent my view - it is difficult for such a system to be corrupt at the top, nobody was bribing the Emperor because there was nothing to bribe him with making him effectively incorruptable, people lower down could be corrupted 'help us and we will help you take out your boss and you can move up' but the leadership of the Empire were largely beyond reproach when it came to corrupt behaviour as the system didn't really allow anything to corrupt them with (Vader was a traitor in wanting to overthrow Palpatine but he wasn't really corrupt about it he wasn't offering governership for politicians backing him or anything like that, he wasn't offering or accepting bribes or anything like that).

You seem to take a more narrow view of "leadership" than I, I am not talking about the dozen people at the top (and even then I notice you dropped any mention of Thrawn and Tarkin as well as Amedda) but of everyone starting with governor/moff and general/admiral and up. And also of "corruption" which, in the broad meaning, covers any illegal behaviour from government officials whether bribery was involved or not. Meaning that yes, Vader plotting to overthrow Sidious was corruption.

My point is that the Empire incentive the scummiest behaviours. The leaders of the Empire donly care about their own advancement in ranks and their own enrichment and will cut deals with organize crime, or even run it themselves either illegally or by having the practices (such as slavery) be officially co-opted by the Empire, whenever convenient.

[Mechalich]

My point is that the Empire incentive the scummiest behaviours. The leaders of the Empire donly care about their own advancement in ranks and their own enrichment and will cut deals with organize crime, or even run it themselves either illegally or by having the practices (such as slavery) be officially co-opted by the Empire, whenever convenient.

It's important to recognize that the Empire grows more corrupt over time, and by orders of magnitude. After all, Palpatine rose to power on an anti-corruption platform - the whole no-confidence vote that brings him to power is spurred by the widespread, and completely accurate, belief that the corrupt bureaucracy has shackled the galaxy and prevented the Senate from taking any decisive action on anything. And while war profiteering during the Clone Wars is common, as it is during any sort of major military buildup, actual crime declines and the power of criminal groups drops. TCW actually does show this directly, such as through the fall of Ziro the Hutt and in incidents that are yet to come.

The Empire absolutely smashes the extant criminal enterprises throughout the galaxy during its early years of consolidation. Hutt power is crushed and they lose control of more territory than the CIS ever controlled. Likewise various portions of the lawless Outer Rim become less lawless, because Palpatine expands the frontier by thousands of light years and crushes countless tinpot dictators along the way. It's once this expansion stops and holdout resistance is crushed that the corruption sets in, because the state has no good metrics to measure accomplishment in a galaxy of totalitarian oppression and also because with no need to manipulate public opinion any more, Palpatine no longer needs to care. Therefore autocracy shifts rapidly to kleptocracy, and criminal organizations resurface and reorganize to cater to the new elite (which in some places, such as the Core Worlds, is mostly the same as the old elite, but in the Outer Rim its quite different).

The Empire doesn't exist to help the people or to enforce "order", that's the party line, the Empire exists to oppress as many people as possible, to turn them into the gears of a machine aimed at extracting the most wealth from the galaxy as possible and funneling it into the pockets of the Empire's elites either directly or through crime syndicates or megacorporations like Blastech or TaggeCo (notice the link with general Tagge from ANH and the Vader comics). That's what fascist regimes do.

That's what authoritarian regimes without ideological goals do. The elite in a totalitarian regime default to self-enrichment in the absence of any other directive and in the absence of internal policing to prevent such practices. Both of these things were true of the Empire. Palpatine had no ideological goals for the state. He created the Empire as a vehicle to eliminate security threats to his person and to supply the resources he needed for pet projects, he has no vision for the galaxy whatsoever. Instead he, like many Sith rulers before him, neglects the maintenance of his own Empire in order to pursue a dark side directed apotheosis. Rebels is actually a very good source on this point.

Now there are people in the Empire who did have an ideology and who believed that rule through overwhelming force and the production of unity through fear actually was the best thing for the galaxy. Tarkin was such a person. So was Thrawn (Thrawn could take or leave the fear, but he absolutely believed in unity supplied through overwhelming force). So were many of the low-level officers and rank-and-file soldiers, which is why so many of them eventually defected.

[dancrilis]

You seem to take a more narrow view of "leadership" than I, I am not talking about the dozen people at the top

So when you say 'the leadership is corrupt' you mean 'the middle management is corrupt' which is likely a fair statement.

(and even then I notice you dropped any mention of Thrawn and Tarkin as well as Amedda)

I made a specific mention of Vader and used brackets for it to highlight i.e that I could see the confusion about his role in trying to overthrow Palpatine - I see no reason why anyone would think think Tarkin was corrupt, I am sure people have their reasons but the idea seems odd to me.

And also of "corruption" which, in the broad meaning, covers any illegal behaviour from government officials whether bribery was involved or not.

I would say that corruption is an illegal (mis)use of office - using authority to illegally (i.e not part of a wider operation) help rebels would likely be corrupt for example.

Meaning that yes, Vader plotting to overthrow Sidious was corruption.

Vader was a religious appointee and his religion mandated that he seek to overthrow Sidious, had he succeeded I very much doubt that a prosecutor would have (or should have) taken a case against him - it is not an abuse of authority to do the job you were hired to do.

[hamishspence]

I see no reason why anyone would think think Tarkin was corrupt, I am sure people have their reasons but the idea seems odd to me.

Later this season:

Spoiler

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He's actively participating in a blatant railroading of Ahsoka - the court is basically a kangaroo court. That puts him in the "corrupt lawyer" class.

And in Rogue One

Spoiler

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it's rather clear that his firing on Scarif has little to do with "prevent the Rebels from getting the Death Star Plans" and much to do with "eliminating a rival" (Krennic)

That's another form of corruption.

There's lots of ways of being corrupt that don't involve taking bribes.

[dancrilis]

Later this season:

Is still before the Empire.

That's another form of corruption.

Can you define corruption?

There's lots of ways of being corrupt that don't involve taking bribes.

I did define corruption above without referring to bribes and provided a non-bribe example:

I would say that corruption is an illegal (mis)use of office - using authority to illegally (i.e not part of a wider operation) help rebels would likely be corrupt for example.