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Thread: D&D Beyond Changes
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2023-01-17, 12:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
I could see timed exclusives, e.g. a digital pre-release of a new book ahead of the physical copy. Alternatively, I could see individual releases online, with physical book compilations coming later. This has the potential to be great, because they can get very targeted feedback on how something actually plays in a way they couldn't in a pre-release state, and apply errata to it, before it gets enshrined in immutable physical copy; almost like everything getting a second UA with a much broader audience. (Many tables, including all AL ones, don't allow UA at all for instance.)
Corollary to this - physical releases/products are heavily dependent on traditional supply chains, which have proven to be highly unstable in this industry. WotC are not as exposed to that as the likes of, say, Games Workshop, but they're still susceptible.
Some people just want a rudimentary experience - testing builds, demoing combat encounters before game day, "how should I change this fight if Jim can't show up" etc. An AI DM would be able to run such things in an interesting way.
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First, I don't think it's about "proving you wrong." Everyone has their own things they value, especially monetarily, and different financial situations to boot; yours and mine not being in alignment does not make either of us wrong.
But to answer your question: $30/mo is as others have said a hefty price tag, moreso even than MMOs which are playable purely solo, or GamePass which has literally hundreds of unique experiences built in. So I don't know that they could offer anything that's worth that much specifically - unless maybe it meant not having to buy any future book releases either, which I think would be a loss for them.
But reframing your question more broadly into something like "what would make it worth your while to pay more than the $6 /mo you currently pay?" I've listed a number of these features already, but to reiterate: The 3D VTT, AI DMing, early access to new releases, some form of homebrew curation, free giveaways like they've been doing, priority queue for new feature suggestions - things like that would definitely get me to spend more recurrently than I do today.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2023-01-17, 12:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
It's still $15 per month. I've been playing for more than a decade, and $15 a month is about the max I'd pay for it. Maybe $20. $30/month for DDB is just insane.
Honestly, this is probably right. Newer players (say, under 25 years old) by and large will be accessing this stuff on their phones the vast majority of the time. I DM for a group ranging from 13-18 years old. The only reason they have a paper character sheet is because I make them have one, and I limit electronics at the table as much as possible. My players hate books (very sad) and hate writing even more.
It's not a stretch at all to say that in the next 10-ish years or so, all play will be handled electronically. I don't like it, but it makes sense. But if that is WOTC's plan, they need to get their asses in gear and learn how to create and publish quality content much faster than they currently do.Insert Clever Signature Here
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2023-01-17, 12:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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2023-01-17, 12:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
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2023-01-17, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
I agree $5 is reasonable. I don't object to D&D Beyond charging a fee for their service. Is $10 a month reasonable? Maybe, maybe not. At some point a dollar value will be too much. That's economics. When they say players must pay, do they mean their own D&D Beyond account or per D&D Beyond campaign. If the former where as only the player sharing the content needed an account now, it's irksome but not objectionably wrong for a low price of $5 month. If it's per campaign you're in that's uncalled for.
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2023-01-17, 01:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
Offering them the opportunity to actually play? One of the reasons online gaming is so popular is that it increases the ability of people to actually find other people to play with on their schedule (and in a game style they like, without having to go anywhere, and etc....). I don't know what WotC is thinking, I'm guessing.
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2023-01-17, 01:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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2023-01-17, 01:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
To be fair, that nominative $15 (in the US) has stayed where it is because it's subsidized by the WoW Token in most markets - and the token was making so much money in China that they abandoned the monthly subscription fee there entirely. Even just in the US, highly competitive players like Mythic raiding guilds and upper-ranked Arena players tend to max out the amount of gold they're able to rake in via the token each week, and even go into gold debt with other guilds, all so they can buy BoEs, extra consumables etc off the auction house to stay competitive. And even a number of more casual players funnel cash into the token to obtain large gold sinks like the AH mount.
Even putting the token itself aside, there is also the in-game cash shop with exclusive cosmetics, and paid services like server/faction transfers, renames etc. In short, I would wager the true average monthly price for WoW for most people even just in the US is well above $15/mo, and goes up even further as you get into the more competitive echelons of players for both PvE and PvP.
Way to make your stance sympathetic
Yeah for me, the value of any price increase will be dependent on what I get (as I laid out in greater detail in my reply to Segev.)Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2023-01-17, 01:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
Yeah; if they add in an effective matchmaking component that works better than the patchwork of Discord + Meetup + Facebook + Reddit that exists now, it will be pretty successful. Paid D&D is better than no D&D. Hopefully they support FLGS postings of in-person events as well.
No, but the combination of brand identity + high quality tools and assets + a system people know + a good matchmaking lobby may make paying $5 or $10/month (or whatever the base 'player tier' is) more attractive than alternatives.Last edited by Atranen; 2023-01-17 at 01:12 PM.
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2023-01-17, 01:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
I should clarify: I have, in the past, said, "Man, why would I ever use this product?" only to eventually find that I genuinely like it and would, in fact, pay for it. A minor example: when I bought my current car, the one I wanted also happened to have a remote start feature. I thought that was a weird gimmick that I would never use, but I have found that I actually really do like it.
I am not above learning that WotC does come up with some service that I actually would pay $30/month for; they may have some genius innovate a thing I never imagined that I nevertheless agree is really worth it. Or you may have a thought as to some thing they could provide that I might, upon hearing about it, agree is something I, too, would pay that much for. But so far, I haven't heard of any such ideas. The thing I am willing to be proven wrong on is, "I don't think there's anything that relates to my playing of D&D that D&D Beyond could offer that would make it worth $30/month to me."
Perhaps. The biggest trouble I foresee is that I have zero faith in WotC's ability to make those actually functional and worth that price point. Especially when their first move is to try to eliminate competition by making theirs the only service you possibly CAN go to.
Streaming services compete, today, based on exclusive content more than on anything else, leaving Netflix and Youtube as the only two with actually reasonably pleasant streaming interfaces / software. Most of the others are adequate at best, with lots of clunky design choices that make it hard to navigate them, and some even have really, really bad programming that makes it slow to respond and/or otherwise very difficult to navigate within a given episode or movie. And they don't have any competition forcing them to do better, there, because what they feel they're competing on is content, not on quality of their actual streaming service, itself, as a streaming video tool.
WotC has never shown themselves to be a leader in digital tool design. And if they were planning to make something that was that head-and-shoulders better than everything else in terms of tool design, there'd be no need to hedge out competition based on content. They still could, of course, but they wouldn't need to take draconian steps; the 3D VTT would stand on its own, for example.
Maybe - maybe - an MMO-quality interface with the ability to customize it in turn-based pseudo-real-time would be worth that $30/month fee...for ONE player in the group. Or one "party account" they all access and pay into. But even then, I'm not sure, and certainly, I lack faith that WotC has the know-how to pull it off in a way that makes it worth the subscription fee.
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2023-01-17, 01:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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2023-01-17, 01:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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2023-01-17, 01:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
It's a good point but... you're sort of barking up the wrong tree. The market changed, a while ago. WotC has just been behind the curve for a long time now. I have seen people offer suggestions in these various threads, for whatever its worth, but the problem is that we know this is all simply a strategy to get more money out of us. It has nothing to do with longevity or adaptation or the health of the game.
It is strictly a step by step process to funnel all the money, and more money, to Hasbro.
So... conversations about how to move forward with adaptation can be had. But now doesn't seem to be the time. Because there are currently people leading WotC that are interested in making as much money as possible RIGHT NOW, so they can claim a job well done and move onto their next gig. They are not interested in long term stuff, nor are they interested in stuff that isn't directly tied to extracting as much money as possible in the present.
For what it's worth, I'd be interested in AI DMs, and might pay a monthly subscription for something like that (depending obviously on how much it mapped to the real thing). But you can do that without a scorched earth approach. Still though, the idea that we're going to go from the cost of a campaign adventure to ~$150 each month (4 players, 1 DM) to play the same game is bonkers, unless it's a fully immersive VR simulation and WotC comes and installs all the haptic equipment in my gaming room themselves.Castlevania II: Dracula's Curse
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2023-01-17, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
Agreed, which is why it's important that the $30 a month is the highest possible tier, not the minimum for anyone to play. Your average player will probably get everything they want/need at $5. There will probably even be a free tier, with many restrictions, that will be fine for entry level players.
$30 a month is just for the people who want all of the books, all of the assets, monthly content drops, unlimited map storage, unlimited characters, unlimited minis...and so on. It's only for (wealthy) enthusiasts, or maybe professional DMs who have 5+ games to run weekly.
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2023-01-17, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
Fair enough, that makes sense and thanks for clarifying - but no, I can't think of anything; only you truly know what you might value at that price point. I've listed several potential features they could roll out that I thought of, that's about all I can do.
I don't think they will be worth it at launch - because pretty much everything software-related is launching as an early access/beta these days, whether they label them that way or not, especially live services - but the real test is what kind of support they end up getting post-launch.
Sure, but (a) I don't necessarily think they're wrong to feel that way - in this industry, "best content" often means "first-party content that works for the game the most people around you are playing" rather than being a pure quality consideration - and (b) an "adequate" interface might be all they need to hit in terms of the bar, especially initially. Something like roll20 or Foundry that has dozens if not hundreds of intricate power features beneath the surface may sound attractive, but for the majority of their users many of those features may as well not exist.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2023-01-17, 02:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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2023-01-17, 02:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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2023-01-17, 02:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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2023-01-17, 02:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
IDK. I think Dragonflight is actually pretty darn good so far. Shadowlands was garbage though, I'll give you that.
My emphasis added.
So what if the "game style I like" is in-person, at a table with a pencil and paper, and not a single piece of electronics in sight?
I used to be one of those Raiders. Certainly it matters, but in the grand scheme of it, the high level raiders/mythic+/PvPers are a tiny fraction of the total population of the game. The token surely has an impact, but I doubt whether it pushes the true average much past $20 a month.
And even if it does, WoW still pushes out content WAAAAY faster and more consistently than WOTC ever has. If WOTC published quality content at the same rate that WoW does, I might be ok with a $30/month sub. Maybe.Last edited by Oramac; 2023-01-17 at 02:21 PM.
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2023-01-17, 02:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
I'm skeptical of this reading of the leaks, which seems to be overly cynical. From what I see, there's the tweet from DungeonScribe reporting $30/month/player, saying 'these changes have come down from Execs', and the tweet from DNDShorts saying $30/month is for the highest tier and includes monthly content drops, then reading in that 'their dream is everyone pays $30/month'.
If there are more sources I'd be happy to see them. From these two, I gather that 1) there will be a tiered subscription service with a max tier of $30/month, and 2) everyone needs to have a D&DBeyond account of some sort to play.
But the jump from that to 'everyone needs to be a paying subscriber/everyone needs to subscribe to the highest tier to play' both seem unsupported to me.
A model more like:
Free = you can play, 1 character
$5/month = multiple characters, bonus minis + dice
$15/month = Full creator access, GM games, limited storage
$30/month = Early access to content, bonus assets and other goodies, unlimited online storage
seems both more in line with the industry and consistent with the leaked information.Last edited by Atranen; 2023-01-17 at 02:25 PM.
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2023-01-17, 02:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
A billion-dollar company like Hasbro isn't going to listen to the ideas of some random forum users, and neither is its Wizards of the Coast subsidiary. Not even if our ideas somehow gained wide internet traction. They're not even listening to the professionals they hired on purpose.
Furthermore, Wizasbro has broken and torn appart a trust built over decades, out of nothing but greed and condescension for the hobby's people.
Wizasbro was making money like no other RPG company ever made, with even its biggest competitor far behind. And they spat in our faces because to them it wasn't enough.
Maybe Wizasbro needs to adapt, but first it needs to stop the spitting and the spite and work to rebuild what they destroyed. The ball is in their court, but if that 30-pounds-a-month info is accurate, they still think they can use said ball to beat us up until we give them our lunch money.
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2023-01-17, 02:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
Wait, execs in a for-profit company want as many people as possible spending as much as possible on their products? I'm shocked, I tell you!
And if the source of that "pressure" is offering us something we want to spend $30 on, then they won and so did we
Token+shop definitely pushes it above $15 per person per month, perhaps even well above that. All I'm saying is that the belief that WoW's sub has never gone up is true on its face, but also misleading.
No argument here.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2023-01-17, 02:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
Ironically if they were working on "AL" potential for NPCs/PC that works along side a DM I'd actually might be interested.
They will do anything to avoid making a DMs job easier.
Image if you could set up prompts so you could have NPCs or factions automatically moving to achieve goals without further interactions? I've been learning coding for this very reason.Last edited by stoutstien; 2023-01-17 at 02:35 PM.
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2023-01-17, 02:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
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2023-01-17, 02:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
Trouble is, that's a big "if," and my fear is that their plan is less, "Make something worth $30/month," and more, "What we're offering is worth $30/month, and we just have to force those ungrateful customers into forking it over to us."
I do hope to be proven wrong. I like D&D. I'm pro business, and want businesses to make products so awesome that they make big bucks selling them.
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2023-01-17, 02:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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2023-01-17, 02:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
This was the response to my request to delete my D&D Beyond account:
Rylee (D&D Beyond)
Jan 17, 2023, 8:44 AM PST
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2023-01-17, 02:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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I could be mistaken, but I think there's a difference between "deleting" and "unsubscribing." The latter just means you stop giving them money. The former is a stronger statement, but also means that they will keep anything you purchased digitally. (Which means I would strongly recommend, if it's legal to do so, downloading copies of anything you've bought.)
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