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Thread: Baldur's Gate III (2)
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2020-10-08, 06:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)
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2020-10-08, 06:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)
SpoilerSo you understand that "lol u ded" is not good game design but are defending it anyway.
And there are other ways to trivially add consequences to this specific event that are not "lol u ded", you lose the battle of wills, get controlled, and one of your other party members tackles you to the ground and kills the illithid, you take some nonlethal damage and a level of exhaustion.
It wasn't hard to think of that, it just required a mentality that allowed play to continue not "lol here's a funny way to kill players".
It even mirrors the way you can deal with the mind controlled peasants immediately beforehand, who you can subdue with nonlethal damage.
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2020-10-08, 06:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-10-08, 06:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)
SpoilerAnd easy resurrection isn't available at the early levels in a video game and rarely applies to the player character, so that's still not comparable, is it?
They don't have to make the encounter good, no. You can tell because of how they didn't, they put a stupid "lol u ded" trap in instead.
Ultimately in a videogame, all that does is teach the player to savescum encounters rather than play them out, another reason it's bad design.
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2020-10-08, 07:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)
Youre pretty firmly in the minority camp there. Im not offering a lot of sympathy for people who play a game based off of D&D, and with the Baldur's Gate label in particular, and then getting upset when they do something actively foolish that they should know is foolish and then getting killed. At least you CAN load a save in BG. If somebody fed themselves to an Illithid at second level in my campaign, or the equivalent, i'd tell them to get out the character rolling dice and to be more careful next time.
Come to think of it, i have. Dont stop to turn around and cast a spell at a bunch of orcs when you only have a d4 hit dice, 1st level AD&D wizard.Last edited by Keltest; 2020-10-08 at 07:03 PM.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-10-08, 07:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)
Actually, you can tell I'm not because of how Sierra went bust and Lucasarts set the paradigm for adventure games, and how they don't write modules like Tomb of Horrors these days :P
There's a reason this sort of thing stands out enough to generate pages of discussion, because everyone's learned not to do it like this any more.
And again, volitional acts in free play are not comparable to constrained options in a dialogue tree. The latter is actively prompted by the DM, who also gets to choose the chance of success, the information given about the chances of success, and the consequences.
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2020-10-08, 07:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)
Yeah, they call it the Tomb of Annihilation these days. And the Baldur's Gate series clearly failed miserably, according to you, because it was chock full of bad life choices that were obviously bad and followed through on the threats they made if you kept going for it.
You dont have to like the style, but calling it bad in spite of the wild success its seen is just sticking your head in the sand.“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-10-08, 07:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)
I disagree there as well. It can make them save scum, certainly. But it is also a very big warning for the rest of the game going: This game is hard, there will be death. You are not as much of a superhero as you think you are, be careful.
And that's a pretty important signal to have if that's the tone of the game you're going for.
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2020-10-08, 07:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)
This isn't "a style", it's a badly designed encounter that fails to inform the player in advance of what it is going to require of them, of the kind that the old Baldur's Gate games don't have. The old Baldur's Gate games don't instakill you for rolling one bad dice in a conversation because they thought of a funny scene, they have hard encounters and even impossible encounters that can come as a consequence of player action but you have to actually take volitional actions in free play to engage them.
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2020-10-08, 07:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-08, 07:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-08, 07:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)
Except it's not, because it's a skill check you can pass. It just doesn't tell you what the check is going to be until you've passed another check to get to it.
It's presented as a realistic option you might choose for a high Intelligence character, because that's how all the other skill checks in the dialogue system have been presented, a thing you can do because you built your character a certain way, but what it actually requires is multiple attributes to be high (Int and Wis). You can't find that out until after you passed the Intelligence check, by which point it's too late.
It's a design trap because it's a badly implemented option with a badly designed consequence for failure (your entire party stands and watches with nothing to indicate they are affected).
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2020-10-08, 07:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)
Its not a trap because it hangs a freaking sign on it in glowing neon lights that say "Bad idea ahead!" I mean, maybe its a trap in the sense that some people just have to push the button labeled "self destruct: do not touch", but thats not the game's fault.
If you go ahead with it anyway, thats on you. Some people like making bad decisions in games to see what happens. You dont have to pick it if you are averse to unnecessary risk.
Also, there is no rule anywhere, at all, that says that passing a skill check can only ever result in a good outcome. If the thing youre trying to do is transparently dumb then being stopped by your own incompetence before you get to the actually dangerous part is a perfectly plausible and acceptable thing to have happen.Last edited by Keltest; 2020-10-08 at 07:41 PM.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-10-08, 07:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)
Right, but here's the thing, if you have high Int it doesn't look like a risky option, because you have placed investment in the thing it tells you it is going to require. It says "this is a difficult test of that stat you have a good score in, you can try it because of that investment you made".
It's only a bad decision because of information you didn't have when you made it, to whit that there's a Wis test as well that also requires a second stat to be very high.
If both pieces of information were present in advance, then you would be able to raise this argument.
But they aren't. You can't find out it was a bad decision until after you've made it, and it's a bad decision not because of the fiction, but because the mechanics make it difficult to succeed for reasons not available before you started trying.
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2020-10-08, 07:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)
No, if you have high int, it looks like an option at all. Low int characters dont look at it and think "this is a thing i can feasibly try." There is nothing, at all, that says that passing the check guarantees you do it safely, just that you can do it. "Success with consequences" is considered a staple of interesting D&D for a good reason.
Last edited by Keltest; 2020-10-08 at 07:53 PM.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-10-08, 07:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)
But again, the thing that makes it unsafe is a second check it didn't tell you about. It's mechanically set up to screw you for investing in Int by giving you a trick option that then says "syke, hope you bought lots of Wis". And no, "success with consequences of instant death" is not interesting for anyone but the one having a laugh at your expense.
There's a reason games stopped doing that kind of thing before the first Baldur's Gate even came out.Last edited by GloatingSwine; 2020-10-08 at 07:56 PM.
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2020-10-08, 08:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)
Sure, its not interesting. Thats why so many people are defending it. Because we dont find it interesting.
Also, its a save, which means you can add proficiency (if youre a wizard or a cleric or any other class that gets wis save proficiencies) and luck is ultimately the biggest factor. Even a fighter with a -2 wis penalty has the possibility to make the save, its just harder for them. Its not "youre automatically dead if you arent a wis caster" its "this has the potential to suck, with a worse chance if you arent mentally well rounded.
Also, you STILL havent actually explained how, exactly, the game sets up the expectation for success when it gives so many signals that this is a dumb decision?“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-10-08, 09:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)
Does anyone have a link to the scene in question?
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2020-10-08, 10:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)
On a different note, has anyone found any use for Disguise Self yet?
Avatar by araveugnitsuga.
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2020-10-09, 12:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)
My take on the trap scene:
SpoilerI don't mind it at all for a few reasons. I actually think it's pretty smart.
First, it is very easy to get sympathetic with monsters that have been crushed and forget that they're... well... monsters. That scene makes it abundantly clear that, despite being the victims of multiple attacks, including from red dragons and the literal denizens of the Hells, the Mind Flayers are *not* innocent. they're brain-hungry killing machines that will make a meal of you the second it becomes useful for them to do so. Once you get insta-gibbed from a pinned Mind Flayer you tried to save, you're never going to assume they're innocent again.
Second, it shows you that you're not always better off passing checks. You can get yourself in trouble very easily and that's very important to understand early on.
Finally, it shows that we're dealing with an unreliable narrator. The narrator paints the conflict very differently than how you see it play out on screen, talking about love and guilt in ways that shouldn't be applicable to the scene. You need to know that the narrator is going to tell it how you see it, not how it actually is, and that's going to be a recurring thing. I've seen at least two other places so far where what the game shows and the reality of the scene aren't the same and understanding that right up front is a valuable prize well worth the cost of a reload.
Also, I've found some really interesting things in the game so far. Is this a fair place to compare notes, or are we too shy on spoilers?Spoiler: My inventory:
1 Sentient Sword
1 Jammy Dodger (I was promised tea)
1 Godwin Point.
Originally Posted by Kairos Theodosian
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2020-10-09, 01:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)
The Mindflayer is tricking you.
I'm going to detail the scene to everyone since not everyone has 70 dollars or a desire to buy and download an 82 gig game.
After killing a bunch of folk who are being mind controlled by a Mindflayer, it will attempt to mind attack you. I had to use a Wisdom save to get away from it, and in doing so the Mindflayer lost control and the remaining mind thrall ran away, freed from the Mindflayer's effect. Then, I approached the Mindflayer again
The instant I do so, it begins bombarding me with mind control noise. Love me, worship me, save me, trying to overpower you- in fact, if not for the baby in your skull it WOULD HAVE overpowered you. this is made clear. Upon experiencing a psionic feedback from touching the baby in you, it suddenly starts building up mental energy... and then stops, turning away from you.
Then and only then are you given an option. Two, in fact. Kill it, or [Intelligence] Probe Further Yourself.
To me, it is BLATANTLY clear that Mindflayer buddy over here is faking us out, trying to get us to probe further- you know, since we have a baby flayer in us. We felt our brains touch. We know intrinsically we can do this. So he's enticing us. It's a trick to get us to lower our guard. If we succeed in linking our minds again... the Mindflayer, who is now waiting for us and as we know IS stronger than us mentally but is hurt by the baby inside of us, will bombard us with a charged up mental blast- and because we know from earlier that Wisdom helps resist these effects, it is now time to make a wisdom save because OOPS we tried to read books in cthulhu town.
This is telegraphed very obviously, it is foreshadowed abundantly, and if you stop and think about it for even a second it becomes obvious that trying to intentionally shove your brain and a Mindflayer's brain together is A Bad Idea. This is why if you FAIL the roll, you're safe; you aren't successfully probing its mind. This is why it works out the way it does. You saw the forbidden fruit and you grabbed for it, and damn your hide you succeeded in grabbing it.
Now you know why it's forbidden.
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2020-10-09, 02:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-09, 03:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)
Apparently, short rests don't happen after every encounter, as I've heard - either my information was wrong or it was changed during development. You get one short rest before a long rest. This doesn't sound very good. I was already worried that long rest abilities would be stronger because in a video game, you can rest as much as you want.
And now it turns out short rest abilities operate on an only slightly less restricted timetable. If something does happen to restrict long rests, it will hit short rests too.My FFRP characters. Avatar by Ashen Lilies. Sigatars by Ashen Lilies, Gullara and Purple Eagle.
Interested in the Nexus FFRP setting? See our Discord server.
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2020-10-09, 04:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)
I've watched a couple of gameplays, here's a couple of random thoughts.
- Inventory management seems identical to D:OS2, chock-full of uninteresting stuff. It seems you can't access the others' inventories when you're talking with a merchant;
- In previous BG games you had lots of NPCs to choose from for your party, here there are only five - I mean, D:OS2 had more origin characters.
And I disagree with GloatingSwine about that scene. The game gives you all the informations you need to make an educated choice and IMHO it's not a "gotcha" moment; if you choose to do something that the game showed you to be quite dangerous and in no way compels you to do, it still gives you the chance to survive instead of just saying "oh, you die".
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2020-10-09, 05:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)
Many thanks to Assassin 89 for this avatar!
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2020-10-09, 07:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)
As someone who is playing the game I can say that yeah, short rest is just a button. I've never actually hit it (really should I play a Warlock...) but I have hist Long Rest, and I'm actually not sure resting as as free as you think. I've long rested once, and there was a minor scene of Astarian going off as we slept, and the next morning we found the pig he vampirize. That implies that Long Rests do change the world when they happen- we have no reason to believe they won't have a time tracker for certain things.
Additionally you can find fountains that let you heal you restable resources and healing.
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2020-10-09, 07:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)
My FFRP characters. Avatar by Ashen Lilies. Sigatars by Ashen Lilies, Gullara and Purple Eagle.
Interested in the Nexus FFRP setting? See our Discord server.
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2020-10-09, 07:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)
I think it's suitable there should be some kind of progression of tadpole nomming our brain, the more we rest, right?
I hate timed quests, but maybe this should be one time, a time limit is needed. Or at least, if you wait too long, your tadpole matures and - Congrats. You now play as an Illithid.
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2020-10-09, 08:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)
So far my sensation is that the tadpole doesnt transform people at all, but does something else to them. I havent found any sort of "illithid meter" yet, but i know that leaning on the tadpole's powers is supposed to, at least theoretically, allow it to influence you more in some way. Right now my assumption is that means increasing the DCs of checks to resist when the tadpole tries to control you. I ran into somebody else who had a tadpole, but they were dying. When they died, the tadpole came out and i tried to crush it, but i failed the check to assert my will and had to let it go.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-10-09, 09:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Baldur's Gate III (2)
The "Illithid Meter" and "Affinity Meters" are still hidden, yes. We'll see if that changes in time, but...
As for the nature of the tadpoles, I found something interesting with Auntie Ethel.
Spoiler: Auntie EthelYou first find can this eccentric old alchemist at the druid circle, selling potions and whatnot. You can try to rattle her with your current situation, where she'll admit she can't help you with what she has on hand, but her home to the north might have just the thing and she can meet you there. (Right now her animations are really awkward in this scene, but now I can't tell if this is just early access hijinks or intentional clues something's... off.
North of the Blighted Village you'll encounter her again, being accosted by a pair of young farmers trying to force her to give them their sister back. Side with them and Ethel will drop the act and teleport away, promising you'll find no help in her home. Side with her and the farmers will freak and try to kill you. I used the knockout option to take them down non-lethally, but Ethel still reacted like I killed them.
North of this encounter is a beautiful garden region filled with vibrant green grass, hummingbirds, and sheep. That is, unless you pass a DC 15 check (I saw Arcana, Nature, or Investigation, probably other skills can be used as well). Pass it and you realize this isn't a garden but a fetid swamp filled with brambles, mosquitos, and murderous redcaps who say "Baaa" if you try to talk to them (it's horrific and hilarious at the same time). If you call the redcaps out on this, they'll attack. There's half a dozen of them, they're level 4, and they're very aggressive, so you probably won't survive this option. The water is also filled with traps that do a lot of damage and confer nasty status ailments like "open wound", "diseased", and "rotting". So quicksave before you go too offroad.
Inside her hut, Ethel will be cordial and friendly, as long as you keep the conversation on the tadpoles and nothing else. She'll offer to get rid of them for you. Her price is simple: one of your eyes - she'll give it back and you probably won't even notice a difference in its effectiveness. If you agree, she'll start by taking her natural form: a hag - the big, green sharp-clawed kind... If you let her, she'll pluck your eye out, cast something on it, and put it back in your skull (granting you the "Hag Eyed" tag"), then try to get get to work on the tadpole, only to fail. This freaks Ethel out, and she claims your tadpole is corrupted and she won't touch the the "Netherese" crap you've got swimming in your grey matter. She hastily calls you a dead <noun> walking, hands you a long, thin bone in case you want to fish it out yourself, and hastily leaves (with the farmer's sister in tow).
So... yeah. Apparently the tadpoles you have are "corrupted", even by the standards of the Illithid. Lucky you. This explains why you're not halfway through ceremorphosis already, but the outcome is probably not particularly happy nonetheless.
This is one of three of the things I've found that seemed worth sharing. The other two are the Shrine of Jergal and the Book of the Dead.Last edited by Calemyr; 2020-10-09 at 09:28 AM.
Spoiler: My inventory:
1 Sentient Sword
1 Jammy Dodger (I was promised tea)
1 Godwin Point.
Originally Posted by Kairos Theodosian