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2020-12-19, 05:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat
Assume I have a human druid 5 / MOMF 7 and wild shape into another human.
I assume that I could try to wild shape and could temporary exchange my human bonus feat.
IMHO, it becomes the last instance of the same effect (human bonus feat) and thus should suppress my original choice.
Is my assumption right? And if not why (pls point me to RAW with quotes if possible).
Thank you in advance ;)
EDIT:
My intention is to make a split personality character who picks Sacred Vow as Human Bonus Feat and to switch it in his "evil" form xDLast edited by Gruftzwerg; 2020-12-19 at 05:55 AM.
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2020-12-19, 06:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat
this is ambiguous. ask your dm.
iirc the argument is
"human bonus feat is not a "bonus feat". there is no listed human stat block with the "b" superscript next to the human bonus feat".
or something like that iunno. technically theyre right because human bonus feat is never said to be a racial bonus feat or something like that iunno.Last edited by newguydude1; 2020-12-19 at 06:34 AM.
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2020-12-19, 08:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat
I'd personally allow it, as it makes for an interesting character. Other than that, I have no idea what the official Raw with it is.
If you go for it, I'd suggest an Elf instead that chaos shuffles his Bonus Feats for this.
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2020-12-19, 08:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat
My intention is a showchase in the forums, so I am already asking the "DM(s)"^^
Aren't the starting packages in the PHB not enough as evidence (e.g human fighter). The human bonus feat follows the same syntax as the fighter bonus feat.
Finally, since we can try to turn into specific characters it would fitting if I where to assume his selected bonus feat. The way I see it, is that you should be able to wild shape into any legal human bonus feat for a 1st lvl char.
well I'm stuck with the MOMF and the Human race choice for my actual build. It just would be cool if I could make the split personality work by RAW (in combination with Sacred Vow feat line).Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
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2020-12-19, 09:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat
your gonna have to catch me up here as i dont really use wild shape
wild shape is as alternate form ability except noted here
Originally Posted by alternate form
alter self explicitly says you get the racial bonus feats so thats why the argument exists but im not seeing anywhere that wild shape gets feats of its new form.
so lets start there.
show me the rule that says wild shape gets racial bonus feats like alter self does
Originally Posted by alter self
and then from there we need to figure out whether polymorphing into a human who chose the feat you want as their bonus feat counts as polymorphing into a specific or general creature.
lots of hurdles
1.wild shape grant feats?
2. human bonus feat classified as racial bonus feat?
3. can you polymorph into a specific creature with the feat you want chosen for its bonus feat? or does it work a different way as in you get to select the bonus feat?Last edited by newguydude1; 2020-12-19 at 09:28 AM.
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2020-12-19, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat
If you are stuck as a human, maybe Chameleon class for that floating bonus feat you can swap each day?
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2020-12-19, 11:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat
1. There are options to enhance Wild Shape to Humanoid Shape (see Master of Many Forms)
2. It's the Master of Many Forms ability at lvl 7:
Extraordinary Wild Shape (Ex): Starting at 7th level, a master of many forms gains the extraordinary special qualities of any form she assumes with wild shape.Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
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2020-12-19, 12:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat
I don't think it works if you're already a human, as you've already got that bonus feat. Sort of like if an Elf wild shapes into another Elf, they won't get an additional +2 to listen, search, and spot.
However, if you're not already human you'll also get the bonus skill points! So if you need to make a particular skill check, Wild Shape into a human, use that bonus feat to make it a class skill or just get Skill Focus if it already is, put max ranks in it, then make your check.
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2020-12-19, 01:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat
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2020-12-19, 02:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat
ex abilities arent ex special qualities right? ex special quality is like regeneration not feats.
yeah i dont recall any shapechanging giving you feats other than racial ones. so i dont think you get any feat from wild shape.
there are...
ex attacks
ex special qualities
ex abilities
like if you look at the monsters here
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm
none of them have power attack listed as a "special quality" despite having the feat.
so wild shape does not grant racial bonus feats. one of the clauses in alternate form directly say that you retain your own feats, nothing about gaining feats in the new form.
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2020-12-19, 04:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-12-19, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat
While feats default to (Ex), that's not necessarily true of the abilities that grant them. The human's ability to select an additional feat is a natural ability, not an extraordinary ability, even though the feat itself is most likely (Ex). Also, it applies at 1st level during character creation, so you can't necessarily gain it from a shapeshifting effect. Furthermore, bonus feats in general are not considered special qualities (they have their own, separate line in statblocks), so it doesn't actually matter that they're (Ex). And finally, alternate form says the creature retains its own feats—it doesn't gain the feats of the new form.
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2020-12-19, 11:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat
I don't think that they default to natural abilities because:
Originally Posted by SRD
IMHO the sole category that makes sense (for HBF) would be EX. It ain't a spell/like ability nor a magical supernatural ability, which leaves EX as sole option.
And my last argument would be "text trumps table". As long as the there is text that supports that HBF has to be a extraordinary special quality the table is irrelevant. We have seen enough dysfunctional tables in 3.5 so far. Just because the tables don't reflect the extraordinary special quality source anymore doesn't change the source of that ability.
edit: I don't think the 1st lvl restriction for HBF is a problem here. We can assume that Wild Shape transforms you into a 1st lvl equivalent of the target creature type by default if it doesn't have a fix HD. In chase of humans that would be a "commoner 1". You have to keep in mind that wild shape forms represent just matured fresh out of the box versions (referring to stats! not visually!) of the desired form.Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2020-12-19 at 11:53 PM.
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2020-12-20, 04:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-12-20, 04:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat
The Special Abilities section covers that. A Special Ability has to fall under one of the 4 options mentioned there: Natural, Extraordinary, Supernatural, or Spell-like.
I have provided arguments in my last post why it can't be natural, supernatural or a spell-like ability and thus has to be an extraordinary ability.
Can you disprove it?Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
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2020-12-20, 05:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat
theres nothing to disprove because you havent proven anything.
polymorph says you get extraordinary attacks, but not the extraordinary special qualities.
feats are stated to be an extraordinary ability.
nowhere in d&d i can find has feats ever been stated to be an extraordinary special quality.
spells like shapechange don't say they give you all of the feats of the monster your turning into.
so extraordinary abilities are further split into
extraordinary attacks
extraordinary special qualities
and everything that is extraordinary but is not an attack or a special quality.
like the gargoyles freeze ability
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/gargoyle.htm
its an extraordinary ability but neither an attack or a special quality.
you need to show that feats are extraordinary special quality. calling them an extraordinary ability is not enough to call them a special quality.
so either show a rule text saying feats are an extraordinary special quality
or that all extraordinary abilities must be classified as an attack or special quality
or that shapechange gives all of the target creatures feats like power attack, weapon focus, multiattack, etc.
but thats not possible because alter self directly states racial bonus feats are physical qualities and you gain them while at the same time you dont get extraordinary special qualities of your new form. so the two are separate categories.Last edited by newguydude1; 2020-12-20 at 05:09 AM.
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2020-12-20, 10:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat
Look at stat blocks. Human bonus feats are under feats. Not special attacks or special qualities.
Not to mention the PHB describes feats as natural ability which by extention is validated by the alter self spell with racial feats.
Alternate form does not give you all the physical qualities of your new form which also means you don't get racial feats.
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2020-12-20, 10:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat
There's an argument to be made that human racial traits are (Ex) special qualities.
I don't think there's a statblock for a basic human, but the racial traits of all the other standard player races are (Ex), according to the MM.
It's made more difficult to judge because this is handled inconsistently.
According to Fiend Folio even type and subtype traits are (Ex) special qualities, MM4 and 5 general list type traits under special qualities and MM5 iirc explicitly lists monsters with (Ex) innate spellcasting.
Other books don't list type or race boni at all, but they also don't actively contradict that specification.
So for the sake of consistency it has to be assumed that race, type and subtype traits are (Ex) unless specified otherwise.
As to the existence of some kind of third category of special ability, according to the MM:
Originally Posted by Special Attacks and Special Qualities
There are only special attacks and special qualities. Any special ability that doesn't fall into the first category is automatically in the second.
Racial bonus feats are (Ex) special qualities unless specified otherwise, but the ability to gain feats is not.
Since you can only polymorph into generic creatures that means you only get racial bonus feats, not any feats the creature could pick itself.
That aside the human bonus feat is technically not a feat itself, it's the racial trait allowing you to pick an extra feat, so any rule concerning bonus feats isn't applicable anyway.
The only question is if human racial traits are (Ex) or not.
I'm not aware of any statblock explicitly stating so one way or the other, but all the other player race traits are so i'd say it's at least a fair assumption to make.
Edit: ClarificationLast edited by sleepyphoenixx; 2020-12-20 at 10:29 AM.
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2020-12-20, 12:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat
MM page6 disagrees with you. The paragraph about "Special Attacks & Special Qualities" calls both as "Special Ability" out. And both can be either extraordinary, supernatural or spell-like. Same as in the SRD:
Originally Posted by SRD
Originally Posted by newguydude1
_____________________
As far as I know we only have starting package statblocks for humans, if you can point me to more accurate one for a generic human I would be happy.
Further the HBF itself and all feats (unless otherwise mentioned in the feat) are extraordinary abilities ( either EX attacks or EX qualities). Feats aren't magical by default, thus they can't be spell-like or supernatural by default (which are both magical). Exceptions exist and are called out as such or indicating that they are magical.
and I already explained that MOMF lvl 7 gives it... but I'll repost the quote again for you
Originally Posted by Master of Many Forms lvl7:
Base Wild Shape gives you all extraordinary special attacks
Conclusion, we have EX special attack + EX special qualities = all EX abilities
____________________
It is easy to proof that human racial traits can only be EX abilities. You just need to look up the 4 possible categories and their distinctions.
1. It can't be a Natural Ability since those are tied to your physical form. HBF and feats are by default mental abilities since you learn em and they aren't physical abilities that you get because of the physical form of your race.
2&3. They can be Spell-like or Supernatural. Since neither the HBF nor feats in general are magical (exceptions exist as noted in those specific feats) they don't fit in here.
4. But they (HBF and feats in general) fit into the Extraordinary category very well.
Originally Posted by SRD Extraordinary Abilities
edit: gramma and text structure. sorry it's early and I just woke up... -.-
to prevent further misinterpretations I'll corrected the passages: 1, 2&3Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2020-12-21 at 02:26 AM.
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2020-12-20, 09:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat
Originally Posted by PHB, pg 87
I would even argue that even Alter Self would not let you get the human bonus feat. It's not even given a designation.
Originally Posted by PHB, pg 13
Originally Posted by PHB, pg 16
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2020-12-21, 01:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat
Have you read any of the quotes I posted?
Just because Feats have their separate line in the statsblock doesn't change the fact that the sole Special ability category they can fit into is EX. If you still don't want to believe it, have a look at the statement in BOED page 39 in the Exalted Feats paragraph:
Originally Posted by Exalted Feats
yeah it's a 1st lvl ability. So what? Wild Shape turns you in a generic matured state of the target creature type. And how much lvl/HD has the most generic adult human (hint: commoner/npc 1)? Yeah 1st lvl. That is the generic form you are shaping into. So where is the problem?
I have provided you enough rules over the past posts that feats are EX abilities by default. Unless you can point me to rules that say otherwise, accept it as a fact pls.
____________________
The question to solve is still "how it is resolved when a human wild shapes (as MOMF 7) into another human".
Does he lose his original HBF or does he get to pick second HBF for the duration of Wild Shape?Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2020-12-21 at 01:14 AM.
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2020-12-21, 03:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-12-21, 10:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat
Even if I believed that to be the case, you are missing one thing: they aren't classified as a special attack or quality. Which makes sense as they have their own category.
You are taking the shape. Alternate Form does not tell you you get to pick your form's HD as you get to keep your own. If it doesn't tell you you can do it you can't do it. As such, your level remains a minimum of 12.
You would have already possessed the trait. Becoming yourself doesn't give you something extra. Not to mention "bonuses from the same source don't stack," aka human racial trait.
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2020-12-21, 10:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat
Just because the table doesn't reflects that, that doesn't mean that they have their own category. I have presented rules in text form, where you can categorize em without causing any dysfunctions, while you make claims that the table doesn't reflect this rule. Text trumps table. We have rules how any kind of Special Ability (Attack / Quality) has to be categorized and you just ignore em.
You are taking the shape. Alternate Form does not tell you you get to pick your form's HD as you get to keep your own. If it doesn't tell you you can do it you can't do it. As such, your level remains a minimum of 12.
You would have already possessed the trait. Becoming yourself doesn't give you something extra. Not to mention "bonuses from the same source don't stack," aka human racial trait.
Originally Posted by Stacking
Further, if your assumption would be true, Fighter Bonus Feats would need to call out that you may stack em. But they don't, since the rule you are thinking of only applies to rolls and not to bonus feats.Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2020-12-21 at 10:49 AM.
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2020-12-21, 03:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat
gargoyle is my oversight but still, show me one instance in d&d where shapechange gave all the feats of the target creature to the wizard. because thats what your saying here.
you are saying
1. all ex abilities must be either special qualities or attacks
2. since all feats are ex abilities and not attacks, they are special qualities
3. therefore if you use momf to turn into an aboleth mage you get Combat Casting, Empower Spell, Eschew Materials, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus (illusion), Spell Focus (enchantment), Spell Penetration.
if thats the case then sign me up im gonna abuse the **** out of polymorph spells, but i cant help but think your completely wrong here, or at least your current line of reasoning.Last edited by newguydude1; 2020-12-21 at 03:38 PM.
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2020-12-21, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat
This is RAW. I quoted the relevant text earlier in the thread. All special abilities that aren't modes of attack are special qualities.
2. since all feats are ex abilities and not attacks, they are special qualities
And it's not all feats. Reserve, Psionic and Exalted feats are (Su) and Domain feats are SLA's iirc.
But yes, assuming that feats are (Ex) unless specified otherwise would make them special qualities, since every special ability that's not an attack is a special quality by default.
3. therefore if you use momf to turn into an aboleth mage you get Combat Casting, Empower Spell, Eschew Materials, Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus (illusion), Spell Focus (enchantment), Spell Penetration.Last edited by sleepyphoenixx; 2020-12-21 at 04:03 PM.
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2020-12-21, 04:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat
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2020-12-21, 04:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat
If they were (Ex), which i remain unconvinced of.
I'd rather assume that BoED is wrong. It would hardly be the first time and it's very suspicious that the core books do not mention this anywhere, i've checked.
But the RAW on special abilities is explicit. If it's not a special attack it's a special quality. There is no third category.
So if feats turn out to be (Ex) unless specified otherwise you'd get them via Shapechange. Not that it'd matter at that point, but it's relevant for MoMF or Enhance Wild Shape too.
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2020-12-21, 05:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat
2 quotes from the 3.5 Main FAQ
1)
Page 39 of BE it states that exalted feats are supernatural abilities and not extraordinary abilities like other feats. Does that mean that I lose the benefits from my exalted feats in an antimagic field?
Correct. Unless specifically stated otherwise, the benefits granted by exalted feats are considered supernatural abilities and thus don’t function in areas of antimagic. Some of the special abilities granted by the Vow of Poverty (and described under "Voluntary Poverty” on pages 29–31) are specifically described as extraordinary (such as the natural armor bonus gained at 8th level). These abilities are retained in areas of antimagic, even if other abilities from the same feat (or from other exalted feats) are not.
Further, as what would you otherwise categorize em? I have shown several times that all other options are invalid. And there is nothing in the (Special Abilities) rule indicating other noncategorized abilities. Conclusion = it has to be one of the mentioned options.
2)
When my human uses polymorph* to take the form of another creature, he loses any extraordinary special attacks and qualities. Does this include his bonus feat and bonus skill points? If so, how do I figure out which feat and skill points are derived from his racial traits?
A human’s bonus feat and bonus skill points—like most other racial traits—are considered extraordinary qualities, and thus are lost when the character would lose such abilities (including when polymorphed). This is a good reason to keep track of which feat is your human bonus feat, since it might have wide-reaching effects. (For instance, if Dodge was your bonus feat, you’d lose the benefits of any other feats that have Dodge as a prerequisite, such as Mobility and Spring Attack.)
Keeping track of where your bonus skill points are spent is more onerous, and likely less significant to play. If most of
your skills are maxed out (that is, their rank equals your level +3, or half that for a cross-class skill), it’s probably easiest
simply to designate one skill as the repository for all your bonus skill points.
For ease of play, some DMs ignore this side effect, but doing so represents a clear benefit granted to humans. Be aware that players of nonhuman characters can resent this “freebie.”
*The question and answer uses “polymorph” to refer specifically to spells that rely on the polymorph or alter self spell to duplicate their effect (including alter self, polymorph, polymorph any object, and shapechange), psionic powers based on he metamorphosis power (including metamorphosis and greater metamorphosis), and any other effect based on either of these lists.
While the Polymorph line does lose their own race's Special Qualities, this is not true for Wild Shape which is based on
Originally Posted by Alternate Form
Originally Posted by Master of Many Forms lvl7 ability
I hope this should clear all doubts.
edit:Originally Posted by newguydude1
Bonus Round:
I realized just now, that you would also get the regular 1st lvl feat of the human you are wild shaping into... = 2 floating feats *WIN*WIN*Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2020-12-21 at 05:48 PM.
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Orko, He-man & Battlecat (a Dragonfire Mount's Ubermount and its Ubermount)
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2020-12-21, 06:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Master of Many forms and Human Bonus feat
There's always the option that feats are their own thing and not Special Abilities (in the RAW sense) at all. Which is RAW unless BoED is on the table.
Here is another proof that a Human's Bonus Feat is undisputedly an EX ability/quality.
It's certainly not deserving of the term "undisputed" in any sense.
Edit: not that i disagree that the human racial traits are (Ex), but the FAQ is not a source of RAW.
Bonus Round:
I realized just now, that you would also get the regular 1st lvl feat of the human you are wild shaping into... = 2 floating feats *WIN*WIN*
Just because the human racial trait mentions the 1st level feat doesn't mean you get an extra one in addition to the bonus feat, no matter how permissive the reading.Last edited by sleepyphoenixx; 2020-12-21 at 06:09 PM.